[PUG] Chivalry is sexist

[Peppermint]

Well slant and That Girl, you are both very young, and someday you will learn that not everything has to be about you. Men have their place in society, and women have their place in society.... right behind men. Good examples include being barefoot in the kitchen, fabricating sandwiches, and being too dainty to open a door or a jar without the help of some testosterone-laden muscle. I sympathize fully with the nice your gentleman that you encountered slant; he was only doing what any good young Christian man would do. However, you took your crazy feminist ideals and acted in a way unbecoming of a young lady such as yourself. The fact that you have even considered the possibility of a sex change is a sign that you are deeply confused. I hope for your sake that you do get help and that the light of God shines favorably on your path.

Again ladies, this is not about you. This is about what is right, and what is right is not necessarily what those 'feminists' and 'communists' might tell you. I know they seem 'cool' now, but when you are grown and able to think more clearly, you will see how foolish and irrational they really are.

But I can't stand on the cold stone kitchen floor barefoot! I'll get a bladder or an ovary infection and then there won't be any favorite medieval past time for the hubby and no kiddies! dun dun DUN!!

Anyway, chivalry is a value, and values are damn hard to get rid off for most people, even if they make no sense and others disagree. Thankfully, where I live everyone is an ass, and it's culturally expected to exchange insults and use crude language on a daily basis, or I'd have to give one hell of a hard time to any guys who tried that on me, just because I'm contrary like that.

I suggest a little experiment. Put him on a test of endurance of bitchiness to see how long his chivalry is going to last.

 

[NeverAmI]

Well if true chivalry existed we would still have men dueling to the death over their conflicts! Chivalry can actually be traced back to early Islamic conduct. It was very much a warrior mindset and it emphasized a gentleness and even going out of your way for women, man being the traditional warrior the majority of the time. It has always been linked heavily to religion and it also developed into a sort of set of conduct specific to those of a certain social status.

If true chivalry still existed, it would probably be quite common for men to be killing one another over trivial concepts in the middle of the street. We aren't given that much freedom these days. Kinda makes you re-think what freedom really means.

I think those who think they are participating in in chivalry these days in heavily regulated societies such as the US, or longing for the return is fascinated with a romanticized idealization of chivalry.

And yes, it was very sexist in that the societies were sexist.

 

[J. Cardigan]

I usually hold the door for people, regardless of their gender. I don't open the car door for a lady because it's retarded, and I'll generally pay for dinner or a movie if I invited the lady.

I'll generally ask if they want me to do x or y, just because I don't want to do it if I don't have to, but if booty is going to be withheld then I'd rather just suck up my pride and pull the chair out at the dinner table or whathaveyou.

So, in summary, yeah I think the concept of chivalry is somewhat sexist.

 

[acd]

Chivalry implies that women are passive and helpless and in need of the virtuous and noble male to coddle them throughout existence.

While I like to be treated with kindness, I'm leery of being treated nicely because someone believes me to be inferior or weaker than them.

Courtesy however, is something I enjoy. I don't flip out if a man holds the door open for me. Usually, it works out that if a man holds the door for me, I get to the other entry door first and hold THAT door for him, in turn.

I'll don't berate a guy for holding the door. I just give people the benefit of the doubt and choose to assume that a guy is being courteous because he wants to live in a world where all people regard one another and help one another in any small possible way.

I draw the line at the guy paying for e v e r y t h i n g.

Besides that, what else is chivalrous?

I once avoided rear ending the man in front of me by driving my car up a curb (twas an icy street!) So when I blew my tire out, he got out and helped me put on the spare. I let him teach me, since I had never put a spare on before. Had I known how to change it myself, I would have changed it myself and thanked him for the offer. Had he refused to leave and insisted on changing it since I'm a woman, then I'd have been insulted. Instead, he helped me because he appreciated the fact that I avoided hitting him.

 

[Gaze]

I'm confused, so are we saying that it's the practice which is sexist or the intent or motive of the person demonstrating "chivalrous" behavior?

 

[IndigoSensor]

Chivalry is bais, fairness is not.

Treat every one fair, not by chivalry.

 

[bamf]

I hate the idea of gender roles, and I do feel that chivalry (in the modern sense) is only in place because of an unspoken idea that men are somehow more capable than women. I disagree with this completely, and refuse to do things for people based on sex.

I hold doors for anyone when I get the chance. I don't think I've ever opened a car door for someone besides my grandmother who is very elderly and frail. If my grandpa was alive, I'd open the car door for him, too. I refuse to pay for everything, and rather end up taking turns on who pays. I'm broke so that's nice, and I think it's stupid that because I'm a guy I should be expected to pay, as if the woman wouldn't have money to spend or shouldn't spend what little money she has. I give up seats to people who appear in need, not because someone is a woman. If a younger woman gets on the bus and there are no seats, I'm not getting up unless she looks like she could use a seat. If an old man gets on the bus, I'll offer him my seat, and I think it's stupid if their "pride" is insulted.

TG knows how much I hate gender roles and gives me a hard time at times saying "you're the guy." If she was a guy, I'd punch her

Chivalry is sexist, and sexism is stupid.

 

[DoveAlexa]

Personally, I am less concerned about this since for f-sakes, its a guy who's actually bothering to be nice to someone, especially a woman (something I certainly have rarely gotten).

I'd say we pick out battles and eliminate nasty behaviours first before weening them off their one-sided good behaviour. Or instead, ENCOURAGE then to be just as nice to other men as they are women, while worrying less about the monetary aspect to chivalry.

 

[Gaze]

Personally, I am less concerned about this since for f-sakes, its a guy who's actually bothering to be nice to someone, especially a women (something I certainly have rarely gotten).

I'd say we pick out battles and eliminate nasty behaviours first before weening them off their one-sided good behaviour. Or instead, ENCOURAGE then to be just as nice to other men as they are women, while worrying less about the monetary aspect to chivalry.

Both men and women can be nice or inconsiderate. For the record, women are not necessarily are just as likely to allow the door to close and not leave it open for the next person, especially a male. If someone opens the door, i simply say "thank you." I don't have to live with them, interact with them, or talk with them. I accept it as a simple nice gesture even if it is sexist.

 

[Gaze]

Personally, I am less concerned about this since for f-sakes, its a guy who's actually bothering to be nice to someone, especially a women (something I certainly have rarely gotten).

I'd say we pick out battles and eliminate nasty behaviours first before weening them off their one-sided good behaviour. Or instead, ENCOURAGE then to be just as nice to other men as they are women, while worrying less about the monetary aspect to chivalry.

Both men and women can be nice or inconsiderate. For the record, women are just as likely to allow the door to close and not leave it open for the next person, especially a male. If someone opens the door, i simply say "thank you." I don't have to live with them, interact with them, or talk with them. I accept it as a simple nice gesture even if it is sexist.

 

[88chaz88]

I personally try to be nice to anyone, especially those close to me, regardless of gender.

 

[enfp can be shy]

If true chivalry still existed, it would probably be quite common for men to be killing one another over trivial concepts in the middle of the street.

Haha, indeed! And it's important to emphasize that killing someone, as um, well, death, no return back; is not even remotely similar to any of the imitations left today.

 

[Entyqua]

ok...Yes its sexist...to assume a woman cannot get her own door, or car...cannot cross a street alone, or kick the ass of an attacker is sexist because we can...We can do all that crap, but as a woman sometimes its nice to have a strapping young gent hold the door for me. Sexist as it may be, a woman likes to be noticed!

 

[NeverAmI]

Personally, I am less concerned about this since for f-sakes, its a guy who's actually bothering to be nice to someone, especially a woman (something I certainly have rarely gotten).

I'd say we pick out battles and eliminate nasty behaviours first before weening them off their one-sided good behaviour. Or instead, ENCOURAGE then to be just as nice to other men as they are women, while worrying less about the monetary aspect to chivalry.

Well, if I lived anywhere remotely close to slant, I would follow her with a bag of popcorn because DAMN it would be entertaining to watch her interact with the world.

 

[slant]

Alright guys, here is my problem with the whole chivalry, politeness thing. I am fiercely independent- and perhaps because of this things that aren't a problem to most people are a problem to me- and I REFUSE have someone else do something for me that I could have done myself. I think of myself in the mindset of a male, and it really gets under my skin when anyone implies that because I am female I need special treatment. I didn't chose my sex, and I'm so strong in my opinion that if others think there really is a reason for females to be treated so vastly different than males and like children, then there is no need for me to be female.

I am no longer six! Along the lines of chivalry isn't just holding open the door; there is also the 'censorship' of things, and not saying 'naughty' things in front of a woman that would be just as fine in front of a man. Not curing, not doing anything that isn't going to be appropriate for a female's ears, which basically, is treating them like a child.

Like NeverAmI goes on to state, Chivalry dates way back, and from my understanding of the original concepts of it, the reason that men paid for everything for women was it back in a time where women had no rights. They had no money, they stayed at home, and were completely dependent on men to pay for things. Holding the door open for a woman was because they were weak, as well as the car door and pulling out chairs for them. I suppose some women like to be flattered with chivalry, and if it is a stranger whom I do not know I wouldn't start a conflict, but with my friends I genuinely prefer them NOT to do that. Wouldn't it be more 'polite' to not act chivalrious towards a woman if they explicity ask you to?

I hold doors for anyone when I get the chance. I don't think I've ever opened a car door for someone besides my grandmother who is very elderly and frail. If my grandpa was alive, I'd open the car door for him, too. I refuse to pay for everything, and rather end up taking turns on who pays. I'm broke so that's nice, and I think it's stupid that because I'm a guy I should be expected to pay, as if the woman wouldn't have money to spend or shouldn't spend what little money she has. I give up seats to people who appear in need, not because someone is a woman. If a younger woman gets on the bus and there are no seats, I'm not getting up unless she looks like she could use a seat. If an old man gets on the bus, I'll offer him my seat, and I think it's stupid if their "pride" is insulted.

The door for people who cannot hold it, who are old or have their hands full, I will do that. I don't mind that because it's not really sexist, and even if it was sexist, I actually need the door to be opened because I can't do it myself, so it makes sense.

As a Christian, I believe from study of the Bible that God commands husbands to love their wives. One of the best ways, in my opinion, to show love to a wife is to do things that people seem to think are "chivalrous" but are really just common sense respect. My husband knows I am strong enough to open my own door but it's putting the wife's needs ahead of his own to do things like opening the door for her, etc. If I had a son who honored me like that, I would encourage that behavior rather than discourage it.

I am a woman who is capable of taking care of myself. But in some cases, a son or a husband wants to show his love for you by doing little things like that for you. I would not say that chivalry is sexist, at least when the motivation behind it is respect. I would be thrilled if some day I had a son that held the door open for his mother, because it shows his commitment to obeying Ephesians 6:2 "Honor your father and mother."

And even if this boy is not your son (re-reading I see that he might not be) I think it is still a good practice to show honor to others, period.

Yeah, he wasn't my son, I don't have any children (and I do not plan to). But anyhow...It makes sense if you actually want people to treat you that way. But if you don't, and you say so, isn't it also disrespectful to continue doing something just because it is your moral code even though it negative affects someone else who does not want you to do it? I am asking you this in accordance to your faith, and how you or your husband would respond to to a person whom expressed this view.

 

[Soulful]

I'm confused, so are we saying that it's the practice which is sexist or the intent or motive of the person demonstrating "chivalrous" behavior?

Good point. I think the intent/motive is what's potentially sexist (going with the belief that chivalry is sexist). It determines a courteous versus a chivalrous act.

 

[TinyBubbles]

Hello ladies and gentlemen! It is once again time for your dear old slant to come along and put another controversial topic on the plate. You may know me from hits like "It's the father's choice!" Or badboys like "Is Zoophilia 'wrong'?", But today I am bringing you an entirely different flavor.

Recent events in my life have led me completely and utterly frustrated as I attempted to explain to a seventeen year old Christian boy that Chivalry is sexist and that I would appreciate it if he did NOT hold the door open for me unless my hands are full and I have no other way to do it myself. I was futhermore, insulted, when he told me he would never allow a girl to pay for a trax ticket for him! If he was that taken back he could of just said 'since I am uncomfortable with it I will pay you back' but no...this was all simply because I am female. I reasoned with him that I would have a sex change if it would have him treat me the way I wanted to be treated, yet, even this did not get through because he was venomously against this and believed I was trying to get him to abandon his own manners!

Call me a feminist if you want, but Chivalry is damn sexist!


....and let the opinions start....now.

yeah it's sexist, but if the intention is only to be polite, i don't think there's anything wrong with it.

 

[Faye]

I feel obligated to ask is this really what you think or is this supposed to be some kind of sarcasm? I really want to see it as a sarcasm, but I'm afraid that it was not meant that way, and clearly I don't know you enough to judge.

I'm completely serious. Who do you think you are, asking these kind of questions? Are you or have you ever been a member of the communist party? Would I do anything but make a grace inspired argument out of compassion and the goodness of my heart? Arguing that women should be equal is a communist conspiracy.

But I can't stand on the cold stone kitchen floor barefoot! I'll get a bladder or an ovary infection and then there won't be any favorite medieval past time for the hubby and no kiddies!

What are you doing in the kitchen that could possibly cause you to get a bladder or an ovary infection?

 

[the]

You are right. It attempts to make slaves of men everywhere.

 

[NeverAmI]