Church Goer's Support Tourture?

Shai Gar said:
You guys profess to being good people and wanting to do good around the world, but when it comes down to it, most of you are evil selfish ignorant peons who allow themselves to be indoctrinated by your nations ruling elite and their propaganda instead of educating yourself objectively.
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It may actually surprise you as to who runs our government and the insight we have. If I have sounded like an evil, selfish, ignorant peon...............
I think you may have misjudged me.
 
Satya said:
"Love they enemy"
"Do unto others as you would have them do unto you"
"Love others as you love yourself"

I guess these kind of words are simply just words. Clearly that Jesus fella never considered trained CIA operatives and terrorists.
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heh. I cannot validate discussing the Bible with someone that wishes to quote love that hates Christianity. I do not hate you, Satya. I even know how much you hate Christianity and I still do not hate you. Who is my enemy? I try to treat each and every situation the way I know and feel it should be treated for the benefit of the people. KJI is not my enemy. I may very well be his, but that is his choosing. We have a situation. It must be dealt with.
 
just me said:
heh. I cannot validate discussing the Bible with someone that wishes to quote love that hates Christianity. I do not hate you, Satya. I even know how much you hate Christianity and I still do not hate you. Who is my enemy? I try to treat each and every situation the way I know and feel it should be treated for the benefit of the people. KJI is not my enemy. I may very well be his, but that is his choosing. We have a situation. It must be dealt with.
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I hope you realise how concieted you sound. Also, from what I have seen when you speak of foreign policy issues, this is not how you come across at all.
 
just me said:
I understand the mente behind this and can see and understand implementation. I'm going to ask Alcyone to bake a fresh batch of cookies and see if we can visit North Korea tomorrow.
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I...think you may have misunderstood the point, jm - and for the record, I am a Christian, but I really don't think the US foreign policy for the past four years has been that effective. Worse, I think we've caused more problems than we've needed to and many of the US Christian mediums give extremely biased, extremely Republican-centric views when it comes to non-Capitalistic countries. What gives us the right to assume that we're the "Better" choice, as far as politics go? We have our own major problems, same as everyone else. But what's sad is, we don't believe we're wrong. We're the "great (White) hope" to everyone.

Problem is, when we have problems, we bring down the rest of the world. Tell me; is that fair, or right?

But let me not go on the political tangent. Let's talk terrorism. I think Shai and Satya are correct, jm - maybe not the declaration that Christians are terror-mongers (certain ones are, the same as certain fundamentals of any religion are) - but when it comes to treating our enemies with dignity? Absolutely yes. The New Testament never calls on us to torture our enemies; it calls us to love them. Love includes dignity, respect, understanding, and tolerance...but it doesn't necessarily mean agreement. I can love someone, but not agree with them. And I can tolerate someone's view without agreeing with them. And so this article is saying that we can obtain MORE information from our enemies if we simply treat them like human beings. We give our enemies the choice to decide what they want to do without removing their humanity from them. Isn't that the better option? It turns us into mindless, hateful killing machines if we torture our enemies to obtain information. I guarantee you, torture is not love. If it is, it's a selfish kind of love that is extremely one-sided. But it shows no love to the enemy.
 
I'm not sure how I feel about this. First off, I want to know how "accurate" this is -- I have to question what people's views on "torture" are; what sort of information that is expected to be found using said torture; how many people were surveyed; whether or not there was any bias in the number of participants for each group; where the surveying took place or was possibly concentrated; etc. etc.

In any case, I don't really trust statistics like these. I'm not a churchgoer and am really not that strongly affiliated with Christian ideals, although I do know a good deal about them, but this seems like some rather shaky variables.
 
just me said:
I understand the mente behind this and can see and understand implementation. I'm going to ask Alcyone to bake a fresh batch of cookies and see if we can visit North Korea tomorrow.
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What kinds of cookies do you want?

As soon as my ear infection clears up I'm up to flying there with ya.
 
alcyone said:
What kinds of cookies do you want?

As soon as my ear infection clears up I'm up to flying there with ya.
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Our operatives break down quickly with chocolate chip cookies, so lets at least try those. Maybe bring an assortment, and plenty to last the trip so we can coerce the crew, too. Thanks for coming along. It shows good will. That is my heart. I did not torture anyone. I can guarantee what I would have done would not have pleased everyone. I can guarantee what anyone would have done would not please everyone.
That is reality.

Folks, let me ease your conscious; there are those in place doing what they do best trying to defuse this situation. DPRK may have enough fissile material for five to seven bombs, and enough spent fuel rods for another by year's end. They have weaponization plans, but do not have that down yet. KJI has historically used all the funds he can get his hands on to further militarize his country. He is the man starving his own people. We can argue this all week long.
I'll pass out some brownies if the Christian-bashing will stop. I deserve better, as do other Christians here. It almost seems like part of a software program. Do I have to negate the other forces and destroy them to stop it, or is asking too much?
 
just me said:
I'll pass out some brownies if the Christian-bashing will stop. I deserve better, as do other Christians here.
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I don't bash Christians. I bash hypocrites who pretend to be Christians. For example, people who claim they follow the words of the Jesus Christ, but at the same time advocate for torture. Such people are in no way Christian because they disregard the very tenets of which the religion is based.

And frankly just me, I don't hate Christianity. I just can't stand the distorted, cherry picked, misinterpreted, literalistic bullshit that some conservative minded idiots make out of the religion in order to push their own political agendas. But what those kind of people follow is no more Christianity than shit is gold. And they certainly aren't Christians for making their own little fundamentalist cult out of Christianity and pretending that their own self serving is in any way the kind of love that Jesus adovated. And I don't hate such people, I simply pity them for being too narrow minded and ignorant to realize the difference.
 
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just me said:
Folks, let me ease your conscious; there are those in place doing what they do best trying to defuse this situation
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You REALLY pay no attention to international politics do you? Sheeeesh.

All the american government is doing is taking a hard line on NK. Since the very fucking beginning that's all america has done. What has it every accomplished threatening this man and his father? MADE HIM MORE ANGRY AND MORE STUBBORN.

Folks, let me inform your conscious; there are those in place doing what they do best to intensify the situation so they can sell more arms.
 
just me said:
I knew brownies wouldn't work....
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I would have thought by now that you would have gotten it into your head that subtalties, indirect meanings (which ultimately are passive agressive beaivors when it comes down to it), and guilded responses just make people mad, and cause people to lose respect for you.
 
Damn skippy. I've got no respect for passive aggressive. If someone wants to be aggressive they ought to be directly aggressive.
 
When you're wrong and you know it and you cant put together an argument that's not made solely from rhetoric?
Aye, it isn't.
 
I am now off work. May I have the time for a shower, something to eat, and maybe some rest? I'll be back when I can give this the time needed.


:rain::deadhorse:
 
IndigoSensor said:
I would have thought by now that you would have gotten it into your head that subtalties, indirect meanings (which ultimately are passive agressive beaivors when it comes down to it), and guilded responses just make people mad, and cause people to lose respect for you.
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just me has a typical persecution complex. You confront him directly with things like that and he will make it all about his religious beliefs and not his own behavior. Christianity simply exists for him as an excuse so he doesn't have to think for himself and be accountable for his own behavior. I have resigned myself to simply pointing out the contradictions of his beliefs and watching him founder by posting accusations of how we are Christian bashers and haters and also posting unintelligent passive aggressive comments like the one above. I don't need to change a person's mind if I can get them to make themselves look stupid.
 
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I rested and came prepared for battle. I have written a song while handwriting my thoughts out so I would not be online so much. It is so good, I must attempt getting it into the right hands. Sorry; new toy, great discussion, end result a new song.


Christians are people. They come to Christ at different times in life; some as young adolescents, some college age, and some even in their seventies. Some are studious and some are not. Some have a great love for learning and sharing, and some do not.
A mature Christain may not be any given specific age. Maturing in Christ takes time, as does it take time to learn a new subject in school. There are many different varing degrees of knowledge in Christ. Most all at most any given level of learning have admitted to being full of faults. They have chosen a path of forgiveness and repentance. They fully acknowledge this does not make them perfect in man's eyes on this earth....only forgiven.

How stupid Jesus must have looked on the cross dying to a lot of people. It is called "The Foolishness of the Cross" to those that wish to seek understanding of that.
When asked questions while He was being judged, like a lamb being led to the slaughter He opened not His mouth. How stupid of Him; He surely must have looked stupid to a lot of people. More can be said in silence, and silence does not speak to just anyone; there are those that hear the answer and there are those that cannot comprehend any answer. Closed minds are closed to any and all verbage, so why bother with what those closed minds call rhetoric and stupidity? Why add fuel to a fire?

Passive aggressive? Sounds like two words in a fight with themselves. I look at the definition of this, from the way it is being used against me, as a move in a game of chess. If you place my King in check, for example, it is my turn to move. I move what will best serve my own purpose in protecting my King and think about the endgame while doing so. Whoever is playing me in chess may question my move all they want; they may not know of my being tired. I may make a move that may have the other player think an awful lot before they move again.
Some may look at my move as a sign of weakness, thinking to themself how much respect for me they have lost. If our two Kings are facing each other with nothing in between them and they move their Queen in front of their King to place me in check; I may choose to also place my Queen in front of my King to merely cancel being in check. It may be my best move at the time, but inadvertantly I seem to have caused a situation: they cannot move their Queen currently from that file on the board. That would be a passive aggressive move to me on my part. If this were near the endgame it may very well happen, though most likely not early on.
I have but mirrored their assault with a defensive move that places them on the defensive. It does not mandate a defensive action from them, though many choose that as their course of action. I most likely will hear, "Now you don't really want to exchange Queens, do you?"

Truth is I do not argue much at home, at the office, or most any other place. I will lock the door and place a closed sign up before I choose blatant confrontational avenues. I have never in my life had to stand up for my Christianity except once in a bar many years ago.
Were my actions and words passive aggressive? I truly think quite possible.
We were in a dart match and it was almost Easter Sunday....Thursday night before Good Friday. Several folk on the other team were joking about Easter and it went on and on. One of them finally said, "Let's see if we can go find a Christian and crucify him." I turned the palms of my hands up and offered them to the table they were sitting at while I was standing next to the person that said that. I said, "Here: take me; I'm a Christian".
Some might call me a hypocrite for being in a bar, throwing darts, and drinking a couple of beers when I was younger. I'm here to tell you to judge away. Go for it. Have at it.
Remember I have been judged as being passive aggressive....even stupid....hiding behind my beliefs........if you only knew me you would be my friend.

Truth is I have something those that choose to attack me with words and call me adjectives,
trying to force me to defend my stance, they do not have. Come Wednesday night and I will share it with you if you show me a true desire to learn. I feel no need right now to write on the wall. Why? It will not be well received, it will be attacked, and there are those that have a true desire to learn I should be investing my time into rather than those that refuse to read the writing on the wall. Take me; crucify me. Call me names and spit in my face if you will.
Truth is you will tire of it as others in the past have. You may even get to better know me and possibly even learn to respect something new to you in the way I choose to stand. Who knows? We do not always have to fight. Trying to force someone to act against self; try chocolate chip cookies with me. I love those.

You cannot force your will on anyone you choose to. You cannot always have your way. Silence, as I said earlier, sometimes speaks much louder than words. Christians are not perfect; only forgiven and trying to live a better life. I liken the situation I am in unto an adult's shaking a child trying to get the child to speak. Problem with that is I have been shook too many times already and it does not bother me. I will attempt to keep from lashing out against those that choose to do so against me. Do any of those that question me actually not know where I stand? I thought so. Queen to King two. Bash away. Show your anger.
 
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Satya said:
just me has a typical persecution complex. You confront him directly with things like that and he will make it all about his religious beliefs and not his own behavior. Christianity simply exists for him as an excuse so he doesn't have to think for himself and be accountable for his own behavior. I have resigned myself to simply pointing out the contradictions of his beliefs and watching him founder by posting accusations of how we are Christian bashers and haters and also posting unintelligent passive aggressive comments like the one above. I don't need to change a person's mind if I can get them to make themselves look stupid.
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I know sayta. I have been trying to point this out to him. He knows it, just won't acknolage it. Hence peoples frustruration.

just me said:
Christians are people. They come to Christ at different times in life; some as young adolescents, some college age, and some even in their seventies. Some are studious and some are not. Some have a great love for learning and sharing, and some do not.
A mature Christain may not be any given specific age. Maturing in Christ takes time, as does it take time to learn a new subject in school. There are many different varing degrees of knowledge in Christ. Most all at most any given level of learning have admitted to being full of faults. They have chosen a path of forgiveness and repentance. They fully acknowledge this does not make them perfect in man's eyes on this earth....only forgiven.
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We're not (or at least I am not) saying you have faults in being christan. I bet your beliefs are well founded.

just me said:
How stupid Jesus must have looked on the cross dying to a lot of people.
When asked questions while He was being judged, like a lamb being led to the slaughter He opened not His mouth. How stupid of Him; He surely must have looked stupid to a lot of people. More can be said in silence, and silence does not speak to just anyone; there are those that hear the answer and there are those that cannot comprehend any answer. Closed minds are closed to any and all verbage, so why bother with what those closed minds call rhetoric and stupidity? Why add fuel to a fire?
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I'm not sure what you are getting at here really. If your trying to use this as an example to why you respond the way you to to questions. You sure are failing at convincing me why.

just me said:
Passive aggressive? Sounds like two words in a fight with themselves. I look at the definition of this, from the way it is being used against me, as a move in a game of chess. If you place my King in check, for example, it is my turn to move. I move what will best serve my own purpose in protecting my King and think about the endgame while doing so. Whoever is playing me in chess may question my move all they want; they may not know of my being tired. I may make a move that may have the other player think an awful lot before they move again.
Some may look at my move as a sign of weakness, thinking to themself how much respect for me they have lost. If our two Kings are facing each other with nothing in between them and they move their Queen in front of their King to place me in check; I may choose to also place my Queen in front of my King to merely cancel being in check. It may be my best move at the time, but inadvertantly I seem to have caused a situation: they cannot move their Queen currently from that file on the board. That would be a passive aggressive move to me on my part. If this were near the endgame it may very well happen, though most likely not early on.
I have but mirrored their assault with a defensive move that places them on the defensive. It does not mandate a defensive action from them, though many choose that as their course of action. I most likely will hear, "Now you don't really want to exchange Queens, do you?"
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You respond passive agressivly very often (and this entire post has part of it in here). I am baffeled to understand why that people who are, can't see that they are being passive agressive, and understand why it makes people mad. I tried countless times to get mayflow to understand this and he failed at it (but I just came to the conclusion that he really just is a low-intelligence person, as he is an extreme example). You use alot of metaphors way way too much to convey what you mean, nothing wrong with that. The problem is you use them in such a way to unfairly disarm an argument for yourself and others so you don't "hurt yourself". It is basiclly yelling without yelling. Many people (my self included) can not stand that, as it is a huge sign of disrespect. Ever see the movie "office space" the boss is a prime example of what passive-agressiveness is. Don't tell me that makes you mad. It doesn't take a brain surgen to see you are acting passive agressive in many places on this forum.

just me said:
Truth is I do not argue much at home, at the office, or most any other place. I will lock the door and place a closed sign up before I choose blatant confrontational avenues. I have never in my life had to stand up for my Christianity except once in a bar many years ago.
Were my actions and words passive aggressive? I truly think quite possible.
We were in a dart match and it was almost Easter Sunday....Thursday night before Good Friday. Several folk on the other team were joking about Easter and it went on and on. One of them finally said, "Let's see if we can go find a Christian and crucify him." I turned the palms of my hands up and offered them to the table they were sitting at while I was standing next to the person that said that. I said, "Here: take me; I'm a Christian".
Some might call me a hypocrite for being in a bar, throwing darts, and drinking a couple of beers when I was younger. I'm here to tell you to judge away. Go for it. Have at it.
Remember I have been judged as being passive aggressive.
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Why on earth would anyone judge you for being in a bar just because you are christan? Thats just retarted for someone to think that. There is a fine line between being nonconfortontaional and burying your head in the sand. The latter can precepitate out later in other ways. And props to you for doing that in the bar; I lik

just me said:
You cannot force your will on anyone you choose to. You cannot always have your way. Silence, as I said earlier, sometimes speaks much louder than words. Christians are not perfect; only forgiven and trying to live a better life. I liken the situation I am in unto an adult's shaking a child trying to get the child to speak. Problem with that is I have been shook too many times already and it does not bother me. I will attempt to keep from lashing out against those that choose to do so against me. Do any of those that question me actually not know where I stand? I thought so. Queen to King two.
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Yeah sometimes silence speaks louder then words. But, that could be translated into many different things.

All I am trying to do is point out why people are agervated with you.
 
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