Clinton vs Trump, Trump vs Clinton

For many years I have been more than disappointed with 'politics' as what I seem to see happening in the UK, and I guess maybe in America, is a widening of income equality and communities becoming disenfranchised. I don't doubt this was a key element in what happened here in the UK in our recent Brexit vote. The electorate are angry, and in my view sadly, have now compounded those difficulties.

I gradually have come to the view, that the answer is not traditional politics. For me the worst thing, is seeing the divisions that referendums and elections can cause. I think the only way forward is for communities themselves to try to come together again, and put aside whatever differences they think they have. I don't think we should passively wait for politics or politicians to 'fix' things.

Through community groups, art, culture, communication, I hope we can find a way through all these issues. When I worked as union rep, I tried hard to enagage with managers who were willing to listen, as much as to members who were at times too angry to think through things rationally. Whatever happens in this election, I hope people don't stop thinking about the issues, and acting constructively to help each other. Overall I think it is about restoring the decisions that most impact peoples lives, how they work, live and manage themselves back into their own hands, and away from a tiny detached elite, whatever they claim their politics to be.
 
I do agree @James but sadly politics has become more polarized and divided than ever. Partisan acrimony is deeper and more bitter than it ever has been, at least in recent memory.

You can read about it here for the American perspective:

http://www.people-press.org/2014/06/12/political-polarization-in-the-american-public/
http://www.journalism.org/2014/10/21/political-polarization-media-habits/

What's causing this polarization? Maybe the internet (sometimes called a giant echo chamber) and maybe process of disenfranchisement which causes people to gravitate toward definite and sometimes simplified solutions. Maybe I have been guilty of this myself. Either way it will be hard for people to come together and act constructively especially when they so longer believe in an impartial system.
 
brightmoon said:
I do agree @James but sadly politics has become more polarized and divided than ever. Partisan acrimony is deeper and more bitter than it ever has been, at least in recent memory.

You can read about it here for the American perspective:

http://www.people-press.org/2014/06/12/political-polarization-in-the-american-public/
http://www.journalism.org/2014/10/21/political-polarization-media-habits/

What's causing this polarization? Maybe the internet (sometimes called a giant echo chamber) and maybe process of disenfranchisement which causes people to gravitate toward definite and sometimes simplified solutions. Maybe I have been guilty of this myself. Either way it will be hard for people to come together and act constructively especially when they so longer believe in an impartial system.
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@brightmoon I couldn't agree more. Here in the UK just this year we have had a woman MP stabbed and shot to death in the street. People were shocked, but also not shocked, if that makes any sense. It doesn't matter what political party, or what issue. To me it just reflected the anger, fear and division that was simmering under the surface. I am getting older, which only makes me more determined not to see that side of life overtake us.

I quite accept that the system is out of date, and unfair. To me that makes it even more important for people to get together peacefully, and come up with some improvements. I think we could potentially be looking at a bigger period of social change than we have ever seen. It us up to everyone to ensure that change happens in a productive, intelligent way. If we can put partisan politics aside (and I know we can) then I am certain that can happen. Jo Reed the MP who was murdered here repeatedly said "far more unites us than divides us".

I hope whatever nationality or politics, people see that statement for the self evident truth that it is.
 
7 billion people. Anger being stoked by the highest government positions. Its not going to get better. Its going to come to a breaking point and then break.
Thats simply is what is going to happen.
 
James said:
@brightmoon I couldn't agree more. Here in the UK just this year we have had a woman MP stabbed and shot to death in the street. People were shocked, but also not shocked, if that makes any sense. It doesn't matter what political party, or what issue. To me it just reflected the anger, fear and division that was simmering under the surface. I am getting older, which only makes me more determined not to see that side of life overtake us.

I quite accept that the system is out of date, and unfair. To me that makes it even more important for people to get together peacefully, and come up with some improvements. I think we could potentially be looking at a bigger period of social change than we have ever seen. It us up to everyone to ensure that change happens in a productive, intelligent way. If we can put partisan politics aside (and I know we can) then I am certain that can happen. Jo Reed the MP who was murdered here repeatedly said "far more unites us than divides us".

I hope whatever nationality or politics, people see that statement for the self evident truth that it is.
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One of the problems with this is that I do not see that the related issues should be labels politics. Socialism doesnt work. We can break down easily why it does not work and it simpy should not be a discussion after that. But...aome people just want things for free...but nothing is free. Someone has to process your food, water, clothes, shelter. .. give people things for free and they stop working and these things do not get processed any more. Society works for a reason and today that reason is because people want things.
Its not political its simple cause and effect. So I for one will continue to support the people that recognize the simple truths where others cannot.
 
Eventhorizon said:
One of the problems with this is that I do not see that the related issues should be labels politics. Socialism doesnt work. We can break down easily why it does not work and it simpy should not be a discussion after that. But...aome people just want things for free...but nothing is free. Someone has to process your food, water, clothes, shelter. .. give people things for free and they stop working and these things do not get processed any more. Society works for a reason and today that reason is because people want things.
Its not political its simple cause and effect. So I for one will continue to support the people that recognize the simple truths where others cannot.
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I agree about socialism. To me that's the power of the state over the people, whereas what I'd like to see is people have power and control over their own lives, rather than have most decisions enforced on them, by anyone or anything, without their real and meaningful involvement beforehand. You only have to look at supposedly socialist countries like China or North Korea to see what happens. It's tyranny in my view. People are terrified of the rulers.

However that doesn't mean there's no problems with capitalism, it's obvious there are very many. To me it's about bringing the role of ethics into how govt and business operates, but that's just my own individual view. I think the answers need to come from communities, from the ground up, and not from politicians.

I think people are capable of doing that if they are willing to cooperate with each other and work together on the things they agree on, instead of fixating and arguing about the few things they don't. I think there's a role for governments to act for people, but no one should expect them to provide all the answers, any more than corporations or religious institutions would. The first way that people surrender their personal power is to believe they don't have any. In my view they do. It's only a matter of whether people want to argue and complain (at least we live in countries where we can do that) or actually do something constructive.

The govt here in the UK started to cut funding and close libraries. Some communities got together and staffed them on a voluntary basis. By no means do I think that's a perfect answer. It could be argued that it allowed the govt to impose unfair cuts. But to me the communities wanted to keep them and acted, and that's a lot better than moaning and doing nothing about it. It's just one small thing, but to me it shows things can be done if people are willing to step up and act.
 
The free market brought us the cluster fuck that was the GOP nominating process.
The entire enterprise was strictly a profit center for the corporations that own the tv networks.
No real journalism or civic duty was being performed. very unsocialistic.
 
Stu said:
The free market brought us the cluster fuck that was the GOP nominating process.
The entire enterprise was strictly a profit center for the corporations that own the tv networks.
No real journalism or civic duty was being performed. very unsocialistic.
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Huh?
 
Stu said:
You really don't see that? where were you?
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Maybe you can simplify what you are trying to say because I honestly do not see how its relevant to anything in this thread.
 
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As an interesting note Hillary lead is falling based on early voting. And early voting is well known for a large portion of voter fraud that has always benefited Democrats. We may yet see a non Hillary President. A win for America no matter how bad Trump is.
 
the discussion veered into praising capitalism and denegrating socialism. the free market owns the media and the TV networks set the pace and tone of the GOP nominating process based entirely on how many consumers were watching their product.

If there was ever an argument to be made for removing the "market forces" from some aspect of civic life it is in the election of our representatives.
Eventhorizon said:
Maybe you can simplify what you are trying to say because I honestly do not see how its relevant to anything in this thread.
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Stu said:
the discussion veered into praising capitalism and denegrating socialism. the free market owns the media and the TV networks set the pace and tone of the GOP nominating process based entirely on how many consumers were watching their product.

If there was ever an argument to be made for removing the "market forces" from some aspect of civic life it is in the election of our representatives.
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Interesting point. I never thought of it that way. But I dont think you can say media in general supports the gop. Im still not entirely sure of the parallel you are implying. But we do know that TV ..cable is predominantly liberal and thats what is pushed upon the public. So I agree. .at least in terms of the news we are given there should be very clear restrictions on how the news is presented.
 
I feel like we should really be voting on keeping/getting rid of Congress before even considering a new President. Aren't they the real problem?

Just a thought. But I think they all need to go.
 
Eventhorizon said:
Interesting point. I never thought of it that way. But I dont think you can say media in general supports the gop. Im still not entirely sure of the parallel you are implying. But we do know that TV ..cable is predominantly liberal and thats what is pushed upon the public. So I agree. .at least in terms of the news we are given there should be very clear restrictions on how the news is presented.
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it wasn't politics, it was business. The nomination was treated like pro wrestling purely for profit.
 
Anywhere But Here said:
I feel like we should really be voting on keeping/getting rid of Congress before even considering a new President. Aren't they the real problem?

Just a thought. But I think they all need to go.
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The very concept of gerrymandered safe seats runs contrary to the constitution
 
Anywhere But Here said:
I feel like we should really be voting on keeping/getting rid of Congress before even considering a new President. Aren't they the real problem?

Just a thought. But I think they all need to go.
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Trump is talking term limits...
Maybe you are really a Trump suppoter in disguise
 
term limits are not the solution.
 
Stu said:
the discussion veered into praising capitalism and denegrating socialism. the free market owns the media and the TV networks set the pace and tone of the GOP nominating process based entirely on how many consumers were watching their product.

If there was ever an argument to be made for removing the "market forces" from some aspect of civic life it is in the election of our representatives.
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I hope @Stu that I was suggesting/hoping that people get more involved in their own democracy, rather than praising 'capitalism'. I can't in good conscience advocate for socialism, looking at the countries that supposedly operate that system, and brutally repress their people with in it. To me a truly democratic system does not just mean one vote every X many years. Similarly I don't think anyone can look at the state of the environment, and our unequal societies and not see any problems with the version of capitalism that is currently in place, or how it is operating. If we continue as we are, I think we will regret it very soon.

I went to a barbecue at my father in laws some years ago, and he is very pro conservative. His friend was there, a very clever older guy who worked as an engineer, with similar political views to him. He knew I was a union representative at the time, and he went to some lengths to tell me how opposed to them he was. He firmly believed in 'the free market' and 'market forces'. To me they are all human constructs, just ideas and theories. I suggested to him, that he liked weekends and time off work, which he did. I said that trade unions had been very instrumental in obtaining those for working people. I told him, that if he really believed that everything was created by market forces, then logically they must have also created trade unions.

I said that I knew that regretably trade unions at times, had caused uneccessary problems, made businesses unprofitable and been one of the causes for people to lose their jobs. So I was not blind to their potential faults, but that when they were run honestly and constructively that overall they were a force for good. That compared to a lot of organisations, they were quite democratic. I said that if he looked at it from a business rather than political point of view, it was just a group of people who had organised to, negotiate a better business deal. We talked about a lot of different things. By the end of the night he changed his view a little, and we got to know each other better.

In the UK we still have antiquated, counter productive trade union laws. Our employee engagement is negatively affected, and our productivity is consequently poorer. In Germany, they have more progressive relations, trade unions are represented on companies boards, employee engagement is higher and they are far better organised and productive as a result. They make more from exports, and for a lot of regular working people, they have a better standard of living, and work fewer hours.

I don't think there has to be such a polarized view of the world or politics. Here we are 7 billion people, standing on a rock, tilted at angle, spinning around in space. Whoa.. now I feel dizzy. Darn scientists with their telescopes.. they will destroy us all if we don't stop them... lol.
 
pointing to the ussr, maoist china, north korea and saying "look socialism is bad" is just not logical
 
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