Corona / Wuhan virus

Milktoast Bandit said:
The underlying idea in my comment (or in my brain) is that things can continue with funds if we only choose to do so. Money only has value because we say it does. My point is, just because things are weird now does not mean we can never travel by air again. Working together is groovy!
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Agreed, but its the same as people compaining about the bank bailout back in 2008.

Sometimes businesses needed to be bailed out because if they're aren't, those businesses disappear.

Economics is like a series of plates on sticks, spinning. If the plate stops spinning it smashes on the floor, so the government has to keep the plates spinning when they slow down.

Bankrupt banks means anyone with money in the banks with a bank account IE, busineses small and large, AND ordinary people like you and me, their money is gone.

Imagine if all your savings, all your friends and families savings, and all your employer's saving vanished overnight.

This is why we need to be careful about criticising bailouts because in an emergency they are necessary.

When the sun shines, no, let businesses live and die on their own, but we shouldn't criticise the government for saving our money.

Demand a higher repayment rate from the banks after tha bailout sure, and some of the programs did that. But bailouts are part of keeping society from collapsing and always will be.
 
ReasonEnduring said:
families savings, and all your employer's saving vanished overnight
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Yes! This is what I'm imagining! It's all gone! How wonderful it will be! Finally, everyone will understand that we must all work together! Every thing for everything else! If there is no money, things don't just disappear. We don't magically lose our skills or ability to produce results. We're fucking human! We can build and fuel an airplane with no money if we really want to! Or if we need to. Will it ever happen? Probably not. But that potential reality doesn't destroy my utopian fantasies.

ReasonEnduring said:
Agreed
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And that is all.
 
Milktoast Bandit said:
Yes! This is what I'm imagining! It's all gone! How wonderful it will be! Finally, everyone will understand that we must all work together! Every thing for everything else! If there is no money, things don't just disappear. We don't magically lose our skills or ability to produce results. We're fucking human! We can build and fuel an airplane with no money if we really want to! Or if we need to. Will it ever happen? Probably not. But that potential reality doesn't destroy my utopian fantasies.
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No we kind of can't. Its not even potential reality. An Authoritarian government maybe, but there is probably a lot of people dying in that process.

But you are welcome to your version of utopian fantasy, as long as attempts to bring it into the real world doesn't make real life worse.

Which does have a habit of happening, see the Soviet Union and Communism.

The road to hell is paved with good intentions.
 
Wyote said:
So we are normalizing bailouts now. That seems smart.
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Normalise no, but I would welcome an alternative?

If anyone has a knowledge of economics and has another solution I am more than happy to discuss it.

Its easy to dismiss something as bad, hard to come up with something functional to replace it.
 
ReasonEnduring said:
But you are welcome to your version of utopian fantasy
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Thank you. I appreciate the permission. I think we need parts of our constructs to be destroyed so we can realize that what we've been saying will never ever work will infact work just fine if not infinitely better than what was before.
 
Milktoast Bandit said:
Thank you. I appreciate the permission. I think we need parts of our constructs to be destroyed so we can realize that what we've been saying will never ever work will infact work just fine if not infinitely better than what was before.
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Quite possibly, but power exists and whilst it does those with it will fight against change.

Change must be incremental. Slow steps towards the future, fighting against sliding backwards. Stops those with power from being able to resist. A scaple not a chainsaw.

We may end up in a Trek like post sarcity world (infact I hope we do). Probably wont be in my lifetime and certainly won't whilst huge chunks of the world like Africa, Latin America and the Middle East have considerably high levels of poverty and low technology.

Milktoast Bandit said:
IDOWATIWANT!!!!
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Wyote said:
No more bailouts.
Boom. Solved.
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Well if you like riots and the collapse of civilisation as suddenly no one has any money... sure...

JIT supply lines collapse (as we're seeing now due to coronavirus), no food, no supplies, government has to step in with the army to restore order.

Nations fracture as Military leaders proclaim themselves dictators as now THEY have ALL the power, as in the only ones with guns, tanks and aircraft to control large areas of terrirotry, and we slip back into the Dark Ages.

Me no likely.
 
ReasonEnduring said:
but humanity isn't good at that, as we're seeing when a virus hits that kills less than 5%.
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It's a bit sloppy, but it's happening. Do I believe these emergency actions are permanent I'm the short term? No. I really believe once this passes things will return to 'normal' and we'll forget what is happening at this moment. However! There is a younger generation that is experiencing this. They will be in power one day. So yes, I do agree with you that true change takes time. But it's in times like these when the goodness of humanity rises from the mud. Some it will make a major positive impact on our future.
 
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