Correlation Between Enneagram And MBTI Type

paisley1 said:
I'll challenge that! I'm an INFJ 8w9, and it makes the most sense for INFJ's to be challengers to authority with the basic fear of being controlled by someone, especially less intuitive, as INFJ's have the most insight about human behavior, they see more clearly than other types what needs to be changed and challenged for society long term. It's more bizarre for an INFJ to be a 7! As though the basic fear of being deprived and in pain, is ever evaded? Most INFJ's embrace this reality! That's a very extroverted fear I would give to ENTP's and ESFP's! Although, INFJ 7's are out there.

Stereotypes like INTP's will be 5's, makes sense, but ultimately utter nonsense to me, as a basic fear is a nurture function that is a driving force behind the will (enneagram), as opposed to an unshakeable passive demeanor (MBTI). Different foundations therefore all are completely integrative.
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It's not as non-sense as it seems when you look at the types (both MBTI and the Enneagram) more in depth.
Nothing of this is definitive, but yeah, i'm having hard time seeing an 8 being an INFJ because their passion is Lust (doesn't mean that they are horny all the time) which correlates with Se, and also with extroversion. INFJs are known as Se inferior, 8s over-use their instinctive center, which makes them to push the environment more concistently, and even indulge on it.
 
BrokenDaniel said:
It's not as non-sense as it seems when you look at the types (both MBTI and the Enneagram) more in depth.
Nothing of this is definitive, but yeah, i'm having hard time seeing an 8 being an INFJ because their passion is Lust (doesn't mean that they are horny all the time) which correlates with Se, and also with extroversion. INFJs are known as Se inferior, 8s over-use their instinctive center, which makes them to push the environment more concistently, and even indulge on it.
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Lust is the unhealthy vice of a problematic 8 and ES is in the 4th position in the INFJ, which would therefore make perfect sense! What you should be looking at, is the healthy indicators within enneagram, as innocence is the virtue of the 8, and truth is the holy idea. Those traits scream INFJ, straight from their altruistic idealism. The controlling factor of any enneagram however is the basic fear, and the best I could ever say, is that some are less likely, but still possible. For example Helper 2's and Enthusiast 7's as INFJ's seems unlikely, as being unloved and being deprived to me suggest extroverted fears, however, INFJ's are strong EF's, and it's totally possible.

Basic Fears of each enneagram:
1: Corruptness, imbalance, being bad
2: Being unloved
3: Worthlessness
4: Having no identity or significance
5: Helplessness, Incapability, Incompetence
6: Being without support or guidance
7: Being trapped in pain and deprivation
8: Being harmed, controlled, violated
9: Loss, fragmentation, separation

Portrait of an 8:
Characteristic Role: Challenger
Ego Fixation: Vengeance
Holy Idea: Truth
Basic Fear: Being harmed, controlled, violated.
Basic Desire: Self-protection
Temptation: Thinking they are completely self-sufficient
Vice: Lust
Virtue: Innocence
Stress: Look like the investigator 5
Security: Look like the helper 2

Here's what the Enneagram website says about healthy type 8's:

"Level 1 (At Their Best): Become self-restrained and magnanimous, merciful and forbearing, mastering self through their self-surrender to a higher authority. Courageous, willing to put self in serious jeopardy to achieve their vision and have a lasting influence. May achieve true heroism and historical greatness."

...sounds a bit like classic INFJ's from history.
 
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I'm an SP 4 and an INFJ. I don't believe many of the tests that are online. I think they are all faulty. Also, most of the books are faulty. The only good book for the enneagram is Claudio Naranjo's book Character and Neurosis. That book sketched out the first grand design. Everything else is an accretion, or a mess. The only good book for the MBTI is the original books of Myers and Briggs - I think it's called Gifts Differing. Riso invented all kinds of things, but they are poorly conceived. Almost none of the enneagram writers know anything at all about anything, and you must especially avoid Fauvre and the woman. They are the Boris and Natasha of the enneagram. Naranjo has an actual brain and has put it to actual use.
 
paisley1 said:
Lust is the unhealthy vice of a problematic 8 and ES is in the 4th position in the INFJ, which would therefore make perfect sense! What you should be looking at, is the healthy indicators within enneagram, as innocence is the virtue of the 8, and truth is the holy idea. Those traits scream INFJ, straight from their altruistic idealism. The controlling factor of any enneagram however is the basic fear, and the best I could ever say, is that some are less likely, but still possible. For example Helper 2's and Enthusiast 7's as INFJ's seems unlikely, as being unloved and being deprived to me suggest extroverted fears, however, INFJ's are strong EF's, and it's totally possible.

Basic Fears of each enneagram:
1: Corruptness, imbalance, being bad
2: Being unloved
3: Worthlessness
4: Having no identity or significance
5: Helplessness, Incapability, Incompetence
6: Being without support or guidance
7: Being trapped in pain and deprivation
8: Being harmed, controlled, violated
9: Loss, fragmentation, separation

Portrait of an 8:
Characteristic Role: Challenger
Ego Fixation: Vengeance
Holy Idea: Truth
Basic Fear: Being harmed, controlled, violated.
Basic Desire: Self-protection
Temptation: Thinking they are completely self-sufficient
Vice: Lust
Virtue: Innocence
Stress: Look like the investigator 5
Security: Look like the helper 2

Here's what the Enneagram website says about healthy type 8's:

"Level 1 (At Their Best): Become self-restrained and magnanimous, merciful and forbearing, mastering self through their self-surrender to a higher authority. Courageous, willing to put self in serious jeopardy to achieve their vision and have a lasting influence. May achieve true heroism and historical greatness."

...sounds a bit like classic INFJ's from history.
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What you're assuming is pretty much wrong anyway. INFJs can make for pretty good leaders, but that's not a sign of being an 8 to start with. Also, take a look at the average health 8, that's a more realistic porrtait of how they usually are.
 
BrokenDaniel said:
What you're assuming is pretty much wrong anyway. INFJs can make for pretty good leaders, but that's not a sign of being an 8 to start with. Also, take a look at the average health 8, that's a more realistic porrtait of how they usually are.
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The average health level of 8's don't stack up for an INFJ after a 4; from 5-9, INFJ doesn't make any sense, unless they're Hitler.

[MENTION=4235]problemz[/MENTION] Can you make a clear cut defining correlation between the drive of the passion centers in the human will as explained by how enneagram describes personality, against the cognitive functions of the mind as described by Jung and MBTI? Even in Naranjo's "Character and Neurosis" Jung is quoted correctly in that extroverted sensing pertains to the lust center of the type 8 only in as much as the world is devalued and a slave to the senses, but has "no desire to dominate" like the type 8, meaning the drive center to dominate doesn't originate from ES. Passion centers are different from MBTI functions, they are gauging different aspects of the personality, thus the freedom I find in any overlap.
 
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paisley1 said:
The average health level of 8's don't stack up for an INFJ after a 4; from 5-9, INFJ doesn't make any sense, unless they're Hitler.
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Hitler wasn't an INFJ. He was more likely an ENFJ.
Also, are you saying that INFJ 8s are usually healthier than other mbti types, like, by rule? If that's the case, that's not true. If it's not, then i'm not following you.
 
BrokenDaniel said:
Hitler wasn't an INFJ. He was more likely an ENFJ.
Also, are you saying that INFJ 8s are usually healthier than other mbti types, like, by rule? If that's the case, that's not true. If it's not, then i'm not following you.
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First, yes Hitler was an INFJ, so was Jesus and Gandhi and Jung. Besides the point.

I suppose I was just being stereotypical of INFJ's as being mild mannered, but I suppose you're right, an unhealthy INFJ type 8 is an unhealthy INFJ type 8. I think enneagrams, however, are in a lot more flux over time than MBTI, due to the amount of influence environment has on the drive of passion centers in the will.
 
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Wouldn't it make most sense to take the official Enneagram Institute quiz?

Every time I've taken it I get 5w6. Once I got 1w9.

I still personally feel as though I identify more with the 1w9...

But 5w6 may be accurate as well... I went out for ice cream with my father and now I feel like I wanna be alone for days. =P
 
Naranjo makes the correlation that all INFJ and INFPs are 4s, and all 4s are either INFJ or INFP. He says this quite clearly in Character and Neurosis. Do not read any other book on the enneagram, and if you do, throw it away and reread C & N. It's the only book on the enneagram. All the others are fraudulent.
 
problemz said:
Naranjo makes the correlation that all INFJ and INFPs are 4s, and all 4s are either INFJ or INFP. He says this quite clearly in Character and Neurosis. Do not read any other book on the enneagram, and if you do, throw it away and reread C & N. It's the only book on the enneagram. All the others are fraudulent.
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No he doesn't. Re-read Naranjo as he discusses it, and I quote:

Turning to Keirsey and Bates’ 17 portraits of individuals according to testing results I find
characteristics of ennea-type IV including in the two intuitive subtypes of introverted feeling,
the INFJ and the INFP. INFJ’s (in whom judgment predominates over perception) are
described as having strong empathic abilities, particularly in regard to distresses or illness of
others; as being vulnerable and prone to introjection; imaginative and able to create works of
art, being “the most poetic of all the types.” INFP people (with a predominance of perception
over judgment) are described as having “capacity for caring” which is not always found in
other types, as being idealistic and living a paradox: “drawn to purity and unity but looking
over the shoulder toward the sullied and discreated.”

"Characteristics of ennea-type IV" should not be construed to mean "all INFJ and INFPs are 4s, and all 4s are either INFJ or INFP" as you've claimed, as that's not reading the text accurately at all, he is making a comparison that flows naturally, but he by no means steps on MBTI to say, no other type. The closest you can say, and this has been my point all along, is that some MBTI's are closer to some Ennea-types than others. Angelina Jolie is a great example of an ESTP type 4, which would be the inverse of my claim of Martin Luther King Jr being an INFJ type 8.
 
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nosferatu said:
Wouldn't it make most sense to take the official Enneagram Institute quiz?

Every time I've taken it I get 5w6. Once I got 1w9.

I still personally feel as though I identify more with the 1w9...

But 5w6 may be accurate as well... I went out for ice cream with my father and now I feel like I wanna be alone for days. =P
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I took this test you've mentioned and now I've scored as a 2.. Which makes me question why is there such a drastic change in results o.0
 
Mishyou said:
I took this test you've mentioned and now I've scored as a 2.. Which makes me question why is there such a drastic change in results o.0
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Sometimes I really think the tests have a hard time nailing down the core values and personality traits that really define a certain type. There's too many options that are open-ended... Maybe if they made the tests more specific it'd be a lot easier.
 
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