Death Penalty.

"What do you mean by I keep answering with something specific from the bible - are you referring to "thou shalt not kill"? You don't have to have read the bible to know the 10 commandments. Yes as I admitted earlier I have limited knowledge of the bible, because of this and the fact that I am not a christian I would never use anything from the bible as an argument if it was a standalone spiel rather than in response to others using the bible as justification for what I see to be wrongful acts. I am not against the death penalty because God commands that people should not kill, I am against the death penalty because I do not believe in killing, whatever the justification for it might be. It was perhaps a mistake on my part to start talking about God and the bible when I don't have the knowledge to back me up, but as stated before, it was framed as a question, in an attempt to provoke thought about how is it that the bible justifies the death penalty and whether or not this is fair?"

Tone in a discussion, both with regards to verbal discourse and written are important. You didn't seem to be trying to ask a question or promote discourse; but rather, came across quite differently to me (the listener/receiver).

"Secondly I would be interested to know, what do you think defines a serial killer? Does it take just two murders, or three, or more? What do you think makes people serial killers? Were they born evil? Do they have mental illness?"

This is the chicken or the egg question. I believe there is mental illness from birth when the "organ" is damaged; I believe some people choose the path of evil, which in turn, can make the thought and emotional processes (as well as spiritual) damaged. What makes a serial predator? My definition would be anyone who killed/raped more than (1) victim on more than (1) occasion and fit the criteria for a predator.

"In my sociology course I have been learning about child abuse and how it can actually damage children's brains whereby the victims of abuse don't learn about empathy and compassion, but learn to protect themselves and their own interests regardless of how it affects others"

Add to this, those who are born in the ASD and a myriad of other disorders. Bottom line, we are not discussing a "causal factor", but rather, what to do with a broken human being that will not stop murdering/raping. Being in Early Intervention myself, it goes without saying the importance of nature and nurture and helping said individuals throughout...this is after that fact... a discussion or debate or argument needs a consistent "premise"...
Previously, what was discussed was is it better (humane for both the offender and society) in a cell FOREVER or to put them down.


"I'm not trying to imply that I think that individuals shouldn't take responsibility for their own actions, but there is quite often more involved, including factors that are outside the individuals control."...

There are a million little decisions one can make to get help for themselves; and/or their family's can make. If this does not get accomplished; whether or not the person has a mental health issue-society must step in and STOP the serial perpetrator... anything else is nonsense. Again, We are not talking about what to do beforehand, or what the "causal agent" biological or otherwise may be, but rather, what to do with them when they are in the "serial killer/rapist" state whilst all other avenues of plausible remediation have failed.

"I can understand your stance, in the cases where an individual does appear "irredeemable" it seems that by allowing them to live is allowing the risk that they will re-offend and of course it takes up an extraordinary amount of resources to keep people in the prison system. My anti-death penalty stance still stands though. I don't see how we can create an ideal society by simply killing off those who engage in violent crime."

I do not believe in the lofty notion that anyone is going to create an "ideal" society. I am glad your anti death stance is secure; you have the right to your conclusion and I have mine.

I am on board with you in reassessing how we (society) may unwittingly create some criminals, unnecessarily, through our present punitive system; rather than, have a system that also offers love, spirituality, education, counselling, and medication when necessary to aide in promoting a redeemed person and lessening the chance of recidivism.
 
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I don't believe in the death penalty. I don't believe we can be justified to kill one of our own unless it's saving our own lives. I believe prison is better than execution. People say death might be merciful to the victim; it is in a highly short-term way. Rehabilitation, when possible, is much more merciful in the long term. The allowance of chance to change is one of the highest mercies we can allot.

"Death Row" is highly flawed. Prisoners soak up our money and hurt themselves to escape execution, because by law they cannot be killed unless in perfect health.

My only response to this is, "Which state of health will they be in while dead?"

I hate the prison system. Sadly it's the only way to confine many repeat offenders in our modern world. In a more spacious world I like the idea of exile to another area for its humanity and cost effectiveness.
 
Sali said:
To kill a killer makes you a killer too. If you take an eye for an eye the perpetual chain is that the whole world will be blind.
Click to expand...

I don't really agree with that. I mean, I think people can do whatever they want, literally whatever. If you want a full grown man to be married to a puppy or whatevs, hey, let them do it. but the minute your lifestyle harms another, its where you forfeit your own. Or as I once heard it said, your right to punch stops where the other person begins. If you keep on pursuing past that boundary not only have you lost your right to punch, but you will face the consequences. As much as the death penalty breaks my heart, I believe that if you killed someone, you have killed yourself too.

note though, I myself could only ever find the death penalty acceptable if it was a planned out murder. Manslaughter/defending someone? never.
 
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I'm all for the death penalty morally speaking. I'm tired so I'm not going to make a detailed post.

1) I believe that most people who should be put to death should be incapable of stopping themselves and impossible to help.

2) I also think that isolation fundamentally changes the mind of a person (as you can see in torture victims who go through similar isolation) and I think that's inhumane.

3) I also believe that the rights of the cell mates that are imprisoned along with the serial killer should be protected. Not everyone is in prison for some crazy crime. Why is it okay to remove a serial killer from society and then place him with the likes of other serial killers, white collar gentlemen, and self-harmers and think that's alright if they die just because they're "others"
 
Psalm said:
I believe prison is better than execution. People say death might be merciful to the victim; it is in a highly short-term way. Rehabilitation, when possible, is much more merciful in the long term.
Click to expand...

I hope rehabilitation when possible, doesn't include murderers and sexual offenders. If it does, it seems like a reckless experiment on the law-abiding population.

Also death may be merciful to the victim in a short-term way but it removes a threat from society in a permanent way. I like that. Also I doubt the victim would consider the death of their murderer merciful. Maybe you intend another choice of word.
 
This has led to a deep conversation; can Mercy (Grace) and Justice be achieved simultaneously when speaking of the most extreme case(s) where there is no resolution i.e., the offender cannot (beyond their present ability to) or will not (beyond their desire to do so) accept the path of healing and humanity. How is this done? How can one equally demonstrate Mercy and Justice to both the offender and the victim; especially, if one is of the mindset that all "offenders" are also "victims". Not so gray an area, but again, that is why we appoint judges and work to perfect our legal system as each person, each situation, is unique and there cannot be one full brush stroke of "no death penalty" OR "death penalty"... although understandable, our brains categorize information and it is easier for a person to be totally on one side or the other in a debate. Smiles.
 
I am against the use of capital punishment for 3 primary reasons:

  1. I do not value the killing of human beings, and
  2. The possibility of error in proceedings, or the corruption of those proceedings, and, most simply
  3. It costs more to put someone to death than it does to imprison them for life (in the US)
 
I have been watching the trial online for the past couple of weeks, and spent the weekend watching all of the closing arguments.

Overall, I do not support the death penalty. I think there is enough evidence to tie Casey to the murder and she should be found guilty of first degree murder charges. The issue I am having is that while it was most likely premeditated, I do not feel there is enough evidence to support premeditation prior to the event that resulted in Caylee's death. When you put the pieces together, the circumstance creates a likelyhood of premeditation but the evidence does not prove this without a reasonable doubt in my mind. So, I believe she should be convicted of felony first degree murder resulting in life in prison.

At the very least, she is absolutely guilty of second degree murder.
 
I read up about this case, and my heart really goes out to that child, even though she's gone from this world. Just, the things people do in this world like that tear at my heartstrings. And I really would like to see the death penalty for the mother if she is indeed guilty.
 
***Verdict will be announced at fifteen after the hour***
 
She was found not guilty of all charges except anything that had to do with not informing authorities in which she was found guilty.

Yup, no first or second or charges. Not even child neglect.

She could literally start walking down the streets by Friday if all goes well.

I am disappointed. She's at least guilty of child neglect if not maybe more.
 
Casey Anthony, or any woman in Orange County shouldn't ever have to face the embarrassment of being charged for the murder of their children. Abortion is legal in that county and if a mother wants to kill her children it is her right.
 
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Shari said:
This is the chicken or the egg question. I believe there is mental illness from birth when the "organ" is damaged; I believe some people choose the path of evil, which in turn, can make the thought and emotional processes (as well as spiritual) damaged. What makes a serial predator? My definition would be anyone who killed/raped more than (1) victim on more than (1) occasion and fit the criteria for a predator.

Add to this, those who are born in the ASD and a myriad of other disorders. Bottom line, we are not discussing a "causal factor", but rather, what to do with a broken human being that will not stop murdering/raping. Being in Early Intervention myself, it goes without saying the importance of nature and nurture and helping said individuals throughout...this is after that fact... a discussion or debate or argument needs a consistent "premise"...
Previously, what was discussed was is it better (humane for both the offender and society) in a cell FOREVER or to put them down.
Click to expand...


You really believe that people choose the path of evil??? So from birth on a child choses to be a criminal? You also believe in the devil and witches then??

How can you speak of people as like "put them down". It is like you are talking about an animal. If a dog bites then you should put him down. No matter why he did it, he did it so he is guilty...? We all know that dogs are not born bad, puppies are not killing machines. Especially not in the wild. It is in society that dogs can become false. There behavior is influenced by how they are treated. Hit a dog and it will bite. We all know that. It is the same for people!

What I think we should do with serious dangerous people is to try to help them. I know that at the moment we seem not to be able to help people like them. We are not able to help any person in need, wether the person is poor, sick, ill treated, abused, ... We let them drown, help yourself. And when they actually do "help themselves and only themselves" we turn against them and punish them for a behavior we have thought them.


We have been killing criminals for as long as there are people.
Does this procedure helped us to stop murder?

no

so what the hell is the benefit?

we tread criminals the same way as we tread the environment ...
whether we lock them up or kill them,
as long as we don't see them, there is no problem
 
[mods]Arguing ideas and disputing one's rationalization of an argument is fine, but let's not resort to personal attacks[/mods]
 
Hoggle said:
Casey Anthony, or any woman in Orange County shouldn't ever have to face the embarrassment of being charged for the murder of their children. Abortion is legal in that county and if a mother wants to kill her children it is her right.
Click to expand...

Actually abortion and the death penalty are different. It is not hypocritical to be against the death penalty if you are for abortion because the main argument in favor of it is that the fetus is not a living being. It's the whole "where does life begin argument". Now I do find it hypocritical how others are both against abortion and in favor of the death penalty as their main argument for abortion is "all life is sacred" often tied to moral reasons whether religious or not.
 
Reon said:
3) I also believe that the rights of the cell mates that are imprisoned along with the serial killer should be protected. Not everyone is in prison for some crazy crime. Why is it okay to remove a serial killer from society and then place him with the likes of other serial killers, white collar gentlemen, and self-harmers and think that's alright if they die just because they're "others"
Click to expand...

Serial killers and pedophiles (and in some cases, serial rapists) are typically targeted for murder by their fellow inmates in prison populations. This is usually the reason that they are placed in solitary.
 
If the actual killing is the problem with the death penalty - perhaps they should be put into a coma. You would just need a very basic nursing staff to change drips, manage pressure distribution, etc.

Personally, I think the death penalty is definitely an option.
 
Raccoon Love said:
Actually abortion and the death penalty are different. It is not hypocritical to be against the death penalty if you are for abortion because the main argument in favor of it is that the fetus is not a living being. It's the whole "where does life begin argument". Now I do find it hypocritical how others are both against abortion and in favor of the death penalty as their main argument for abortion is "all life is sacred" often tied to moral reasons whether religious or not.
Click to expand...

You kill your kids, you kill your kids. The question is "when is it no longer ok?"
 
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