Deeper understanding of the Enneagram & Triads

[bamf]

The 2-5-8 triad seems most comfortable to me, however I'm a little confused as to where I stand. I've tested type 2 and 8. I think I'm a 2 who goes a little 8ish when stressed out or overburdened. Arby, I'm particularly interested as to which type you see me as. Does 2 fit? Or 8? Or something completely different?

 

[VH]

The more I read about Enneagram, the less validity it seems to have.

Don't get me wrong, the premise behind it seems plenty valid. Our inherent fears and motivations will inevitably have an affect on our personalities, behaviors, and the mechanisms we create to deal with them.

However, it seems like every author has a different approach to Enneagram, and there is a lot of assumption with it. There's no science to this stuff, only conjecture. For example, some authors think that certain types link into other types in triads, while other authors assume the same types link into other types entirely not in triads exactly. Another rather large assumption is that there are only 9 basic motivations (yes, I understand it wouldn't be an 'enneagram' if there were more or less than 9). I just get this feeling that they're missing a few (mine included).

None of the types seem to really describe me or my motivations.

I'm a bit of a perfectionist, but I don't have any fear of being imperfect or failure (1).
I care about people and want people to love me, but I certainly don't believe love can be 'earned' (2).
I like it when people admire my accomplishments, but I don't much care about status and am certainly not driven to 'achieve'(3).
I'm certainly an individual and aesthetics are important to me, but I'm certainly not an envious withdrawn type (4).
I'd like to think I'm an intellectual, but I've got no fear of being wrong (5).
I'm concerned with safety and the well being of others, but I'm not much of a traditionalist, nor especially responsible or hard working (6).
I'm enthusiastic and pretty uninhibited and can overindulge myself when I'm having fun, but I'm not especially driven to thrill seeking, nor especially outgoing (7).
I'm a self confident type that people tend to follow, but I'm not especially pushy or worried about being in charge (8).
Harmony is very important to me, but I'm definitely not one to compromise myself or my ideals to make peace (9).

In other words, none of these seem to fit me other than the description for the sexual subtype, which pretty much nailed me. And that's another thing... there's a bit of disagreement about whether or not these subtypes have much to do with Enneagram, and the same is true for the wings... which ends up creating entirely new types that overlap drastically.

In other words... Enneagram seems like a good system, but it's lacking.

Also, anyone care to type me?

 

[KazeCraven]

Here's how I think about it:

Your basic type stays the same throughout your life, except perhaps under drastic conditions. If there's a basic theme in your life that corresponds to a given type, that's probably yours. Every person has a greatest (or set of greatest) fears, and every person has a greatest motivation. If none of them seem particularly strong, that's irrelevant because it's all relative. That being said, if whatever your basic fears and motivations are fall outside of the enneagram, that's pretty good evidence that the enneagram is no good (at least for you). I might argue that you've reached a higher level of development in your enneagram type, but the bottom line is that these types of theories are kinda meant to be comprehensive and unfalsifiable, so if it doesn't help I'd just ignore it.

About the different interpretations I'd say that you should try to find the root interpertation or the first version. MBTI too has many versions, and they usually go by different names to help distinguish them (like the Keirsey version). That's not really a knock against the theory though, as there are multiple interpretations of pretty much anything not well-known. Though the many different interpretations of Quantum Theory are probably due to different reasons, it is true that there is a similar fragmentation once we go beyond the observation itself.

Also, anyone care to type me?

Hey, haven't we typed you already? Get back in your box or create your own!

 

[VH]

Hey, haven't we typed you already? Get back in your box or create your own!

No, I'm still clearly on the fence with more than a few of the Enneagram Types, and I'd really like to get to the bottom of this system which seems to have about 66% to 75% validity. I'm still tinkering with 1 sx, 4 sx, and 9 sx. They all have a fair amount of validity for me, and I'm wondering if my bigger hurdles are that I'm associating these types too much with wings or subtypes in people that I know with these types respectively.

Can someone ( [MENTION=442]arbygil[/MENTION]; ? ) explain to me how Type 9s 'withdraw'? Also, I have a friend who is a 9 who frequently adopts the views of others to a degree that makes him seem spineless and eager to be subservient. I don't have this trait, but I do like to get along and will tailor my behavior. Could this be the difference between a social or self preservation 9, and my being a sexual 9? If so, how would a sexual 9 manifest this need for harmony?

 

[KazeCraven]

In that case, I'm interested.

You said that none of the types described your motivations well. Care to elaborate what you think your motivations are? That would probably be most relevant.

 

[arbygil]

The 2-5-8 triad seems most comfortable to me, however I'm a little confused as to where I stand. I've tested type 2 and 8. I think I'm a 2 who goes a little 8ish when stressed out or overburdened. Arby, I'm particularly interested as to which type you see me as. Does 2 fit? Or 8? Or something completely different?

You might be a 2...if you were, I think you'd be a 2w3. If you were an 8, I'd see you as 8w7.

Look up their motivations/fears - which feel more "real" to you?

I don't see you as a 1, 5, or a 9...which leaves six more.

 

[VH]

In that case, I'm interested.

You said that none of the types described your motivations well. Care to elaborate what you think your motivations are? That would probably be most relevant.

That's a tall order. I'm a complicated guy... even though it all seems simple in here.

I made the mistake of approaching Enneagram from the perspective of behaviors early on, so that slanted my view of what each type represents. For example, 1s do this, 8s do that, 6s do this other thing... I tried to type myself based on which set of behaviors was the closest to my own. Granted, behaviors are the most obvious evidence of motivation, but cause and effect are not always linear.

Okay... I guess the best way to describe my motivations would be to compare them to the Enneatypes that seem to best fit me.

One
Basic Fear: Of being corrupt/evil, defective
Basic Desire: To be good, to have integrity, to be balanced

I'm not afraid of being corrupt, evil, or defective, but I really don't want to let myself be these things.

I do very much want to be a good person, and try to be. I'm an idealist through and through, but I don't really beat myself up over failure. I just get frustrated by it, possibly have a tantrum, and then try again.

Two
Basic Fear: Of being unwanted, unworthy of being loved
Basic Desire: To feel loved

Being loved might be the most important thing to me, but I'm a sexual subtype, so this might be an over riding factor. Being loved by a special someone has always been a deep and primary motivation for me, ever since I was a young child (as early as age 4, I remember having a desire for a deep connected relationship, and had an actual girlfriend at age 6). I don't know if I'd be willing to sacrifice my principles and ideals to be loved, but I know that I've bent them in order to be loved.

However, I really don't have the proactive drive to serve others like 2s seem to - and I mean REALLY don't have it. For example, if I am hungry, I always ask the people I'm with if they are hungry and will buy them something to eat if they can't afford it - without even considering that they 'owe' me anything. It's the right thing to do, and I care about people. However, if I'm not hungry, I'm not going to consider whether or not someone else is hungry unless they tell me that they are hungry. I'm much more self focused than 2s seem to be described... to an embarrassing degree. However, it makes me happy to help people and take care of them... very happy, as in little in the world makes me happier than to help people... perhaps other than when someone truly and unsolicited expresses their appreciation for me. The only thing that makes me happier is being adored by someone that truly loves me. In simple terms... 2s are described as doing things for others for the return benefits. I don't. Not at all, and have no motivation to do so, otherwise I'd be more alert to other people's desires, rather than opportunistically helping when I can.

When my chiropractor walked me through a series of questions to try to get to the bottom of my motivations, the last of it went like this... "Why do you feel the need to be a good person?" "Because no one will love me if I don't." I didn't have anything deeper there.

Four
Basic Fear: That they have no identity or personal significance
Basic Desire: To find themselves and their significance (to create an identity)

The artistic and creative side of 4s seems to describe me very well, but I'm pretty sure I could care less about my 'identity' or 'personal significance'. I know who I am. I like to explore who I am, and define who I am in detail, and I do like to figure out why I am the way that I am, but it's more of a tinkering hobby thing that I use to perfect my understanding of myself, which helps me understand others. The only personal significance I worry about is whether or not I helped make the world a better place and used my talents to do so.

There is a lot of description of 4s that is very much not like me. I'm emotional, but not like that, and to be honest, when I do get emotional, I don't like it because I am not in control of myself and I seldom really understand what I am feeling and why until I get some distance and some clarity. When I get deep into a mood, it can last for a long time, but it's like they are external things that come in and take over, and I really don't like that.

In other words, I have a lot of the behaviors of a 4, but I don't seem to have any of the motivations of a 4.

Nine
Basic Fear: Of loss and separation
Basic Desire: To have inner stability "peace of mind"

This is the opposite problem. The behaviors attributed to 9s don't really seem to apply to me, but the motivations are very similar. Loss and separation are very big fears of mine, and feeling unconnected - kind of being in the state of loss before anything is actually lost - is terrible for me. I'm willing to put up with a lot to prevent this from happening, so long as it doesn't offend my idealism too greatly.

However, I'm not so concerned with my 'peace of mind' as I am with 'peace of heart' if that makes any sense. I want to feel that everything is right, harmonious, and good. There are a lot of intellectualism and dry reactions to stress. I don't have those. I also don't have the classic 9 'aura of calm', according to everyone I know. I can be serene, but my aura is always intense, again according to the people that know me (and this was surprising to me when I first found out).

Eight
Basic Fear: Of being harmed or controlled by others
Basic Desire: To protect themselves (to be in control of their own life and destiny)

This is easily my biggest 'trigger'... though I don't know if it's a 'fear' per se. When people try to control me, it pisses me off with a quickness. I'm also without a doubt, my own person. Again, a lot of the description applies, but a lot of it simply does not.

 

[KazeCraven]

Well, here's what I think:

You are an 8w9, but well developed. Unlike an immature type 8, you realize that asserting control over others is counterproductive and wouldn't really help protect yourself even if you were starting to feel a loss of control. Your concern for harmony mediates and refines your basic desire. Also, I think a type 8 would tend to have an intense, magnanimous aura about him. If you had a calm, withdrawing aura I'd say type 9w8, but I've read how you handle some arguments on the forum and it definitely does not look like a type 9 (even a healthy one).

Type 1: this sounds like a normal desire to be a good person; I think most everyone has this and can relate, but apparently people often mistype as ones so I'd be pretty confident saying that you aren't one.

Type 2: I agree that this is almost purely due to your sexual instinct. Type 2, I think is very concerned with other people's well-being and needs love in the sense that they can't just 'know someone is waiting at home for them'.

Type 4: I'm willing to wager that you aren't at all a type 4, and just put value on your creative potential. I think a type 4's creativity stems from their desire to be unique, somewhat as 'proof' that they are deep individuals. This isn't you, unless you've developed well and have since learned to stop brooding about your own flaws and the wrongs against you. Also, they tend to, at least at some point in their lives, feel separated due to how unique they are (and by some point, I don't just mean a passing, one week kinda thing).

Really, any alternatives I could offer up would be way far behind in their accuracy, I think. You should check descriptions of sexual 8's (and healthy 8's) to verify.

http://theenneagram.blogspot.com/2007/09/type-8.html

and

http://ocean-moonshine.net/e1428573...er_op=view_page&PAGE_id=40&MMN_position=89:80

if you haven't seen these already.


ETA: this is almost purely theoretical evidence, and me extrapolating from people who I think are a given type

 

[arbygil]

Can someone ( [MENTION=442]arbygil[/MENTION]; ? ) explain to me how Type 9s 'withdraw'? Also, I have a friend who is a 9 who frequently adopts the views of others to a degree that makes him seem spineless and eager to be subservient. I don't have this trait, but I do like to get along and will tailor my behavior. Could this be the difference between a social or self preservation 9, and my being a sexual 9? If so, how would a sexual 9 manifest this need for harmony?

If it's any consolation, I don't think you're a 9, VH. 9s withdraw to an extreme degree, and it can be in a passive-aggressive way. A social 9 will want to make you happy at all costs, and make themselves happy. So they'll agree to do "whatever" even if they really don't want to do it. A Self-Pres 9 (me) is the quintessential stubborn donkey who will dig in his or her heels when presented with something they don't feel like doing. They will fight tooth and nail for their own personal "zen."

A sexual 9...well, admittedly, I had to cheat to find a response:

Sexual Nines seek a sense of well-being by finding something or someone to merge with. They want to be at one with the world, with beauty, with nature, but especially with a special, ideal lover. That being said, Sexual Nines have many anxieties about losing themselves by submerging their identity in the other. Thus, they can sometimes appear ambivalent and emotionally conflicted, like Fours or Sixes. They sometimes attempt to "solve" the inner conflict between their desire for merging and their desire for independence by "triangulation." They engage in two separate, simultaneous relationships that serve different needs while never completely showing up in either. Needless to say, this can create the kinds of conflicts that Nines are trying to avoid.

from here: http://theenneagram.blogspot.com/2007/09/type-9.html

You may want to look at that website as well. It brings the Ennegram into everyday language, much like Beebe does for MBTI.

PS, you're friend isn't spineless. He's a social 9, and he wants to go along with the crowd. But watch out for the passive-aggressive nature if you're pushing him to do too many things he doesn't want to do.

 

[arbygil]

I think you're closer to an 8w9 as well, VH - possibly 8w9 sx/so.

How does this sound:

Sexual primary people are more likely to most of the time be intense, assertive, aggressive, impulsive, focused, idealistic, and relationship and adrenaline "junkies". When less healthy, they may be especially volatile, extreme, aggressive, attacking, addicted to alcoholism or drugs, promiscuous, sacrificing anything for a rush; or they may be psychotically experientially deprived, having especially dysfunctional and unhealthy attitudes towards sex and intimacy.

Sexual/Social:

# Expression: intense, outer-focused
# Energy: intense energy expressed outwards, assertively
# Behavior: intense, assertive, sultry and aggressive
# Mindset: "If I can maintain position and inclusion in the group/world, I can keep up and escalate all this merging/intensity."
# Examples: Gwen Stefani

 

[VH]

I asked my friends which type I am the most like. The consensus was 8, but the justification was always "when you get stressed you do this or that on the description of 8s". However, it was a tough call for them to decide between 8 and 1, and they unanimously decided that I seem more concerned with not being helpless or controlled (8) than I was concerned with being defective or evil (1).

I've always scored high on 1, 2, and 8, sometimes 4 when I test for Enneagram. I then decided to poke around and read all of the Enneatypes, and found something interesting. I hadn't considered the possibility of 2, as my main type because it was never at the top of my scores, and I'd always assumed that the 2's need to be nice to people in order to get what they need was a conscious effort and planned manipulation... rather than a subconscious motivation. That was a real turning point for me. I don't do these things consciously, but I do them instinctively without meaning to. My idealism won't let me consciously 'manipulate' people because I care too much about them and doing the right thing, but apparently I'm a master of doing it unconsciously as I clearly need to be loved.

That said, there are a few things that point to me being a 2.

- At the absolute bottom of my motivations list (after everything else is ruled out as a motivation by asking 'why') is "Because no one will love me if I don't." That's a very 2 statement when there is no other motivation behind it.
- My tests always put 1, 2, 8, and sometimes 4 as the top results. 2 ties to 8 (stress) and 4 (growth) according to Enneagram Institute's version of triads. When I am stressed, I become very 8 like. When I am being creative, I am at my best, which is very 4 like. If I'm a 1 wing, then that would explain my idealism and less deliberate methods of being nice to people in order to gain love.
- 2 is the most common type for ENFJs, which I have long suspected I might actually be, and if I'm not, I am a borderline INFJ / ENFJ. Also, 2 isn't especially uncommon for INFJs.

- 2 males often mistype as 8s. I suspect this is because males have cultural expectations put upon them about how to gain love (not just romantic love, but all forms of love) that can push them to act like 8s - such as love is the repayment for protection and a man must be strong and independent to be worthy of love - and therefore when stressed feel very justified in acting like 8s.

2 and 8

This is a common mistype for a disintegrated 2, especially males, often due to a desire to seem like a more "manly" or powerful personality type. However, there is nothing innately more masculine or powerful or more feminine or weak about any of the personality types, especially when healthy. There are only different inner motivations and different resulting patterns of behavior.

An 8 or 8-winger disintegrating can actually look quite different from a 2 disintegrating. The 2 needs to see his enemies writhing in pain and he feels entitled to it. He doesn't plan so much as to manipulate and cajole for awhile before letting his heart lead him to outbursts of anger when he just can't take it anymore. The 2 manipulates warmly or fiercely, while the 8 positions coolly and coldly. When the 8 explodes, it is his anger at the situation caused more than out of exasperation that he recieves no gratitude. Beneath the disintegrated 8's aggressiveness is a cold, heartless, thinker-killer. He will enact revenge without needing to watch the person suffer like the embittered 2 may desire.

If I am a 2, I am definitely a 2w1. I've often fixated on the fact that I am an idealist, but I think my need to be loved drives me more than my idealism, and if the two had to come into question I'd be hard pressed but the more I think about it, and look back on my life, I can see that I'm more willing to bend my idealism than my need to be loved - which I can't really change. My ideals are important to me, but they're in addition to my need to be loved which is really starting to show itself as being an emotional constant.

2w1 - Seeking Love and Rightness

This wing brings conscience and emotional containment to the basic Two style. When healthy, they act from general principles about the value of serving others. Ethics come before pride. May hold themselves to high standards. More discreet and respectful of other people's boundaries. When upset, tend to go quiet and experience strong emotions internally. More melancholy than Twos with a 3 wing. When less healthy and entranced, tend to confuse their sense of mission with self-centered needs. Go blind to their own motives; invade and dominate others. Believe their actions are perfectly justified by their ethic of helping. May repress their personal desires and focus on others as a way to avoid guilty dilemma between the rules and their inner needs. If really blind they will warp their ethics crazily to justify personal selfishness and prideful hostility.

And I have no doubt that I'm a sexual subtype. That would make me a 2w1 sx/so.

Sexual 2 - Seeking Intimacy/Intensity

Sexual Twos feel that they will feel loved by attaining complete, profound intimacy with someone. Thus they are driven to be as close to their loved ones as possible. They attempt to win a place with people by focusing intensely on the other's needs, hopes, and interests. They enjoy the process of learning about potential partners and make it their business to become acquainted with the other's world. It is as if the Sexual Two was seeking to get "in synch" with the other in as many different ways as possible. Similarly, the Sexual Two will enjoy finding out what the other likes, whether it is a favorite food, cologne, style of music, or favorite place for vacationing. Needless to say, Sexual Twos will then do their best to provide these things for their intimates. Moreover, most people love to be the center of attention, and Sexual Twos know this, lavishing the other with attention, affection, and praise. In this sense, they are seductive-getting others interested in spending time with them by making the other their object of adoration. Sexual Twos also like to touch and be touched by the people they are drawn to, often initiating physical contact in a relationship

 

[TinyBubbles]

^ for what it's worth VH you kind of remind me of [MENTION=362]Reon[/MENTION];

 

[VH]

^ for what it's worth VH you kind of remind me of @Reon;

Yeah, I see a lot of myself in him. If I were an INTJ, I think I'd be a lot like Reon. What is his Enneagram type?

 

[TinyBubbles]

Yeah, I see a lot of myself in him. If I were an INTJ, I think I'd be a lot like Reon. What is his Enneagram type?

Not sure, if I had to guess I'd say 9. Based on that and what [MENTION=1516]KazeCraven[/MENTION]; mentioned, perhaps you are a 9w8?

 

[BlinkandThink]

I'm a 7, and I've pretty much ignored all of the disintegration business, because there's nothing 1-like about me. But 7's integration to 5 makes complete sense.



This is where I am at this precise moment:

Security (Seven Goes to Average Five)

Sevens often feel it is their duty to entertain others and to keep their environment positive and exciting. Over time, this can be exhausting

 

[VH]

Not sure, if I had to guess I'd say 9. Based on that and what @KazeCraven; mentioned, perhaps you are a 9w8?

I've considered that, but I'm too intense and too willing to upset harmony when things aren't right. I'll always take a stand when my idealism is offended. The only time I act like a 9 is when I'm trying to protect someone I care about, because I know that harmony helps people be happy. When I'm with people who really understand me, I'm less concerned with harmony and more concerned with maintaining a loving environment. However, being comfortable and at peace are ways to be happy, so I like to make sure people have that.

Also, I don't withdraw from my stresses, I engage them. They make me focus rather than pull away.

When I take Enneagram tests, my scores for 9 are always at the bottom end, if not the absolute bottom.

 

[88chaz88]

I've considered that, but I'm too intense and too willing to upset harmony when things aren't right. I'll always take a stand when my idealism is offended. The only time I act like a 9 is when I'm trying to protect someone I care about, because I know that harmony helps people be happy. When I'm with people who really understand me, I'm less concerned with harmony and more concerned with maintaining a loving environment. However, being comfortable and at peace are ways to be happy, so I like to make sure people have that.

Also, I don't withdraw from my stresses, I engage them. They make me focus rather than pull away.

When I take Enneagram tests, my scores for 9 are always at the bottom end, if not the absolute bottom.

I think that your original score of 8w9 is acurate.

 

[TinyBubbles]

I've considered that, but I'm too intense and too willing to upset harmony when things aren't right. I'll always take a stand when my idealism is offended. The only time I act like a 9 is when I'm trying to protect someone I care about, because I know that harmony helps people be happy. When I'm with people who really understand me, I'm less concerned with harmony and more concerned with maintaining a loving environment. However, being comfortable and at peace are ways to be happy, so I like to make sure people have that.

Also, I don't withdraw from my stresses, I engage them. They make me focus rather than pull away.

When I take Enneagram tests, my scores for 9 are always at the bottom end, if not the absolute bottom.

interesting, that does sound more like 8 behavior, especially the part about wanting to protect others. you don't come across as combative as the typical 8 though, at least not online, but i guess in real life you'd be presenting a different picture. you seem to get along with people easily, which made me suspect 9. 8's are more in your face, more openly hostile to some (at least, those i've observed). provocative, rather than reactive.

hey, what type do you think i am? i thought 5 before, but i'm not that detached

 

[BlinkandThink]

hey, what type do you think i am? i thought 5 before, but i'm not that detached

Detached from what? From other people, or from your own feelings?

 

[TinyBubbles]

Detached from what? From other people, or from your own feelings?

both not always easy to talk about my feelings, but i'm definitely aware of them, and i find myself reaching out to people when i'm bored (which i don't think 5's do)