Did Christ DIE for EVERYONE?

say what said:
It's interesting...because I believe in past lives- which means reincarnation...but also Heaven (because I want to see my loved ones again). I don't like having contradicting beliefs...I don't know how to amend this!
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Life multiplies and divides, advances and recedes. All in one whole.

Give up singular identity and it works just fine. You're the universe and different lives are just different facets. You're not just one singular 'you' that gets born over and over again. Past life is past tense, but what really is is now.

So when past life dies its substance remains part of the universe, then you are born of the same universe and carry some awareness with you. Because you're from the same whole. So your past lives are not really trapped in you - they are freely part of the universe. Maybe heaven. But at the same time they are also in you because all is one.

So therefore it is both.

Just my opinion. Believe it or don't.
 
say what said:
It's interesting...because I believe in past lives- which means reincarnation...but also Heaven (because I want to see my loved ones again). I don't like having contradicting beliefs...I don't know how to amend this!
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Reincarnation is a little bit more than just past lives. Basically, what you do and how you act in this life determines your next life. It's this idea of "samsara"... so if you act cruelly in this life, your next will be filled with more struggles and you may be reincarnated as a "lesser" animal. So there is no Heaven in the equation when it comes the Eastern religions.

A verse I like in the Rig Veda is: "Each death repeats the death of the primordial man, which was also the first sacrifice". So basically, each death that occurs in that soul, has a certain lesson that comes with it and will be repeated in the next life if it's not understood. Also, some interpret it as being reborn and redeath repeatedly until you learn your mistakes. Your first death is your first sacrifice because you're giving up all that you knew.


IDK, to each their own. I personally enjoy having no religion and being opened to many belief systems because I feel like it does not limit my tolerance and understanding of others. I still label myself as pagan/spiritual though since I believe in ephemeral beings. Feel free to hold any many contradicting beliefs as you like, at least you're thinking and trying to understand them.... which is more than most people can say.
 
say what said:
It's interesting...because I believe in past lives- which means reincarnation...but also Heaven (because I want to see my loved ones again). I don't like having contradicting beliefs...I don't know how to amend this!
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Why can't you believe in both? Once you are done the "work" you need to do here in the physical plane, you will stop reincarnating. Your loved ones will be having a similar experience, so there is no need to miss each other. You will all be freed from this cycle once you have reached the goal of enlightenment and you will then be together in your heaven for the rest of eternity.

Does that work for you? :)
 
Flavus Aquila said:
I think the question is more complicated than the way you ask it.

For whom did Christ offer himself in sacrifice? And to whom did he offer himself in sacrifice?

It is obvious that Christ offered his sacrifice to the Father, in atonement for sin, to blot out offense, to right the injustice of sin against God.
Since God is infinite, any offense against Him has an infinite quality about it, so any sacrifice to atone for offense must also have an infinite quality about it, which is why the sacrifice of mere creatures (ox and sheep in the Temple) was never sufficient, but gained their efficacy in anticipation of the true lamb of sacrifice - Christ, the lamb that takes away the sins of the world. Indeed, Christ being divine, a single drop of His blood is of sufficient value to blot out all the sins of all men for all time. In terms of the efficacy in atoning for sins, Christ did atone for all sins of all men.

However, the benefit for men merited by Christ, salvation, is obviously not attained by all men. This is not because of something lacking in His sacrifice, or in His goodwill to all men, but because of a defect in men's acceptance of salvation.

So, in terms of the universality of Christ's sacrifice, it was entirely universal, but in terms of its application, it will only be for those who accept it. Nevertheless, Christ did die for the sins of all mankind. If he did not, there would be a limitation in His sacrifice offered to the Father, and it is impossible to believe that Christ did not offer a perfect sacrifice and restore the balance of justice.

One may argue that the punishment of sinners in hell would achieve the balance of justice, but nothing endured by a creature can measure up to what is due to God on account of sin.



Another aspect, is the question of whom Christ offers salvation to. The answer is every single human. The passages quoted in the OP are mostly interpreted by the early Church fathers to mean universal salvation (in terms of availability).

The parable of the lost sheep, and the 99 who were not lost is interpreted understanding humanity as the lost sheep, and the angels as the 99 in no need of repentance. Some could try and argue that the sheep of our Lord is the house of Israel, except the explicit teaching of the Apostles and their activity indicate that humanity is the lost sheep.


So, I believe that Christ died for all people, and offers salvation to all people. However, salvation is not universally obtained, not because of a defect in Christ's offering, nor because of a restriction in Christ's offer, but because of a refusal of acceptance on the part of the individuals who will not be saved.
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you hit the nail on the head with this. [MENTION=11142]SovereignGrace[/MENTION] do you get off on spreading hatred and fear based thinking? There is no love in your words, therefore I must conclude based on the fruit of your work that you are not being inspired by the Ruach Ha Kodesh (holy spirit) and are therefore acting and writing out of your own self. You need to get in tune with the Father and let His Love flow through you. I pray you experience His Love and Joy like never before in a deep and impacting way at the center of your heart.
 
Love_Conquers_All said:
you hit the nail on the head with this. [MENTION=11142]SovereignGrace[/MENTION] do you get off on spreading hatred and fear based thinking? There is no love in your words, therefore I must conclude based on the fruit of your work that you are not being inspired by the Ruach Ha Kodesh (holy spirit) and are therefore acting and writing out of your own self. You need to get in tune with the Father and let His Love flow through you. I pray you experience His Love and Joy like never before in a deep and impacting way at the center of your heart.
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Awww that sounded like it was from the bottom of your heart.
 
[MENTION=7550]Average[/MENTION]
I try, I really do just want to see more people that follow god, loving others and not spreading hatred and condemnation.
 
CrazyBeautiful said:
Why can't you believe in both? Once you are done the "work" you need to do here in the physical plane, you will stop reincarnating. Your loved ones will be having a similar experience, so there is no need to miss each other. You will all be freed from this cycle once you have reached the goal of enlightenment and you will then be together in your heaven for the rest of eternity.

Does that work for you? :)
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Can you believe in both?

I'd love to- I just assumed it was logically not possible....maybe it is?? I would like to think I'll see my loved ones again...but I'd also like to think I'll live many lives, and have lived many lives.

Personally, I believe in everything that makes me feel good - but I find when it comes to explaining my beliefs or where my spirituality is situated, it becomes difficult to discuss- or has been difficult to discuss because people always seem to want one or the other.

I feel I've derailed this thread with my crazy...much like the other thread.
 
say what said:
Can you believe in both?

I'd love to- I just assumed it was logically not possible....maybe it is?? I would like to think I'll see my loved ones again...but I'd also like to think I'll live many lives, and have lived many lives.

Personally, I believe in everything that makes me feel good - but I find when it comes to explaining my beliefs or where my spirituality is situated, it becomes difficult to discuss- or has been difficult to discuss because people always seem to want one or the other.

I feel I've derailed this thread with my crazy...much like the other thread.
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If it makes you feel good, then it's right. No one needs to understand it but you! :)

And this thread already has a ton of crazy in it...I personally think it needs to be derailed.

Now that I think about it, the thread maker asked a question in the title and then proceeded to answer it in the OP. A CASE CLOSED was even added. He made it very clear that there was no room for discussion.

So, IMO, this thread is a free-for-all!
 
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SovereignGrace said:
This is one of the most important QUESTIONS one could ask:

Did CHRIST DIE for EVERYONE in the WORLD?

And the answer is: NO. HE CLEARLY DID NOT.


Despite NUMEROUS PASSAGES in the OLD and NEW TESTAMENT which DELARE the SOVEREIGN ELECTION of GOD, MULTITUDES INSIST that CHRIST DIED for ALL, even though CHRIST HIMSELF said he DID NOT.

If you will be SAVED, God must bring you to a knowledge of the TRUTH, and not LIES.

CHRIST did NOT DIE for the WHOLE WORLD, and if you BELIEVE that he DID, you are under a Satanic DELUSION.

Read John

Read JOHN, Chapter 10, the words of CHRIST HIMSELF. He died for the SHEEP, and ONLY the SHEEP:



So you see,

SOME are his SHEEP, and SOME are NOT.

And he clearly says OVER and OVER: "I lay down my life for THE SHEEP."

If YOU do NOT believe the WORDS of CHRIST, it's BECAUSE YOU are NOT of HIS SHEEP.

CASE CLOSED.


BUT THAT'S NOT ALL.

If you would know the TRUTH, you must ALSO Read John 17, where CHRIST doesn't even PRAY for the world, but prays ONLY for his SHEEP, who come OUT of the WORLD:



Once again,

IT'S ABUNDANTLY CLEAR that he did NOT DIE for the WHOLE WORLD, but ONLY THOSE that the FATHER GAVE HIM, OUT of the WORLD.



Now, People OFTEN REFER to JOHN 3:16, to back up their false doctrine of "UNIVERSAL REDEMPTION," but they IGNORE verses 17 and 18.

And they do so to their own destruction.

Now, LISTEN:

He who BELIEVES on CHRIST is NOT CONDEMNED, but he who DOES NOT BELIEVE is CONDEMNED.

It SAYS SO in John 3:16-18 :



AGAIN, you MUST BELIEVE on the CHRIST of the SCRIPTURES. If you do not, you are NOT of his SHEEP.

He DIED for THE SHEEP, and ONLY THE SHEEP. And he ACCOMPLISHED REDEMPTION for THEM.

He PAYED the FULL RANSOM PRICE for ALL of THEIR SINS, and they WILL HEAR his VOICE and FOLLOW HIM.

If YOU are one of his SHEEP, then GOD, will, give you FAITH to BELIEVE on HIS SON.


DO YOU BELIEVE on GOD'S SON?

If you DO, then you will BELIEVE HIS WORDS, and you will REST and TRUST in HIM.

AGAIN, in VERSE 9, the LORD JESUS SAYS these words:



May God OPEN YOUR EYES to the TRUTH, and give you REPENTANCE and FAITH in HIS SON.
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Your worship of scripture is idolatrois and will be punished in this life and the next.
 
CrazyBeautiful said:
If it makes you feel good, then it's right. No one needs to understand it but you! :)

And this thread already has a ton of crazy in it...I personally think it needs to be derailed.

Now that I think about it, the thread maker asked a question in the title and then proceeded to answer it in the OP. A CASE CLOSED was even added. He made it very clear that there was no room for discussion.

So, IMO, this thread is a free-for-all!
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Oh well in that case

[video=youtube;oG2I17Zm8kI]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oG2I17Zm8kI[/video]
 
Average said:
I can't believe people say that stuff on the forum *shrugs"
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Why so?

Or maybe I've mistaken this for an attempt to open a discussion when its a dismissal instead.
 
Anyone who repents for their sins and truly believes that Jesus is Lord can be saved, so yes Jesus did die for every human being in the world.
 
I find a lot of knee jerk emotional responses in this thread to be very interesting in a sort of distasteful "get over it" sort of way. I actually do find the content of the OP and the responses that rationally discuss what the OP is trying to communicate a lot more valuable, even as an atheist.

There are a lot of passionate believers out there and I don't think it's hateful. I think it's interesting to see how desperate they can be to shed light on what their beliefs are. I do think it's a sort of misguided concern for those of us who are not "saved" or who do not believe that Jesus Christ is the Lord and Saviour, etc.

There seems to be a lot of people who have never read the Bible cover to cover and instead of seeking whatever Truth or Wisdom there may be in that text tend to dismiss it altogether because it makes their feelings a little sad because someone on Fox News hates the gays.
 
Will this thread ever die?
 
SpecialEdition said:
I find a lot of knee jerk emotional responses in this thread to be very interesting in a sort of distasteful "get over it" sort of way. I actually do find the content of the OP and the responses that rationally discuss what the OP is trying to communicate a lot more valuable, even as an atheist.

There are a lot of passionate believers out there and I don't think it's hateful. I think it's interesting to see how desperate they can be to shed light on what their beliefs are. I do think it's a sort of misguided concern for those of us who are not "saved" or who do not believe that Jesus Christ is the Lord and Saviour, etc.

There seems to be a lot of people who have never read the Bible cover to cover and instead of seeking whatever Truth or Wisdom there may be in that text tend to dismiss it altogether because it makes their feelings a little sad because someone on Fox News hates the gays.
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What's the point of living if you can't be bothered by something?

I have some knee jerk reactions from taking belief seriously, because if I don't then it has no purpose! And if I were to take the OP's belief seriously i.e. consider it true then I would have to be very upset about it. If that's what God is about then I'd rather give up and die.

If it's only superficially somebody else's belief that is just 'interesting' then that makes me kind of sick too because it should be more than that. I don't like it when other people claim to believe things that they don't take seriously. In some cases it literally makes me want to throw up.
 
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