Do we need higher education?

say what said:
As someone who has been in higher education for over a decade, I can say that if I could do it over, I might not have picked university....I think I would have picked a community college where I could get a 2-year diploma and work for a few years. Then go back for more education if I wanted it.
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I would have done the same. It would have been cheaper too. I think getting an Associates or BA in a technical or financial area would have been a better choice for me and then going back for more education once I was financially in a good position. However, going for two grad degrees has been a pain. I like learning but for money sake, it's not helpful. Although I've always wanted to get a grad degree, it would have been better if I waited until later on when I was older and had more time to devote to simply studying and enjoying the experience rather than having to think about it as a means to an end. My real interest was becoming an academic researcher. That was my dream job. *sighs*
 
Framed said:
I would have done the same. It would have been cheaper too. I think getting an Associates or BA in a technical or financial area would have been a better choice for me and then going back for more education once I was financially in a good position. However, going for two grad degrees has been a pain. I like learning but for money sake, it's not helpful. Although I've always wanted to get a grad degree, it would have been better if I waited until later on when I was older and had more time to devote to simply studying and enjoying the experience rather than having to think about it as a means to an end. My real interest was becoming an academic researcher. That was my dream job. *sighs*
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It's interesting how, being in higher education, I have such contradictory feelings. As much as I think I might not do it the same if I had a chance to do it over...I still believe the journey and experience has lead me to what I'm suppose to do - or at least what I really want to do.

But as a teacher, i see sooooooooooooooooooooooooo many students that just don't want to be there...and I think "what a waste" not only of my time, but of theirs.
 
Framed said:
If I did not get a graduate education, I would not have a career which allows me to make use of my natural preferences, skills or talents, so saying it isn't necessary is too absolutist. Making universal statements about higher education as if it's either all bad or all good is not helpful. Yes, getting a college education may not be for everyone but claiming it's not useful or necessary at all is narrow and missing the point. Just because one person doesn't need it, doesn't mean others won't. Many of the people who learn on the job often only learn what the job permits them to learn. They don't often learn anything outside of what their specific job or life experiences teach them. For many, experience is a comfort zone. Of course, you don't need a degree to be smart or capable or successful. However, higher education can open your perspective and understanding in ways everyday experience sometimes can't. Often, people think experience is everything, yet many of the people who say life experience has taught them everything they know are some of the most closed people I've ever met. They only listen when what is stated reflects their own feelings or experiences. They are unable to appreciate much outside of this. They think they know everything because of their "life experiences" but often unwilling to consider other experiences or perspectives. Higher education has taught me not to assume but to be more open and understanding and not be limited by experience. Yes, you may not need higher education to learn this but claiming it's unnecessary or irrelevant shows a quite narrow and limited view. Higher education wasn't originally about simply getting a job. It was about enlightenment, not being limited by your everyday circumstances but learning how to see possibilities outside of our worldly experiences. This was usually because it was the experience of not being able to rise above circumstances that made people feel limited or alienated. That's why we had the "knowledge is power" mantra for a long time. It was closer to the original purpose of higher education especially in the humanities. It's ineffective to throw out the baby with the bath water. Just because one person may not find it useful doesn't mean it won't be useful for someone else. Clearly, changes need to be made to the current higher education system. It's not perfect. However, education begins at home and in our social experiences, not meant to be restricted to the four walls of a classroom.
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I agree. If what I had said came off as all knowing I apologize. My opinion is always being revised and I am glad you wrote this, maybe not so much in the tone lol but glad none the less.

I have seen what you are talking about with people getting comfortable in their knowledge. I was talking to an Uncle of an ex one night, he was telling me all about how he worked at Disney with my ex's stepfather doing the artistry and how when digital came in they were all shooed out. And I asked him further questions because that really just didn't make sense to me that they would fire all the people they have. He explained that they gave them an ultimatum, to either learn how to contribute in the new digital world of computer graphics or they could take a, severance package? and move on. He went off on a rant about how they shouldn't have to learn new things, and it really just sounded like a hardheaded bitter old man complaining about being taken out of his comfort zone. I for the life of me couldn't understand why he wouldn't try, however said nothing as he was getting very heated.

I read this comic the other day a friend of mine on Facebook posted (she's into the teachings of mindfulness without knowing the over all idea of mindfulness which is kind of a great thing about the internet) it was a comic talking about... *sigh* I can't find it, but one of the things that was mentioned was learning to obey. The example given was that of going to the military and having your confidence be squashed to nothing and all you can do is follow orders and instead of doing that (going through the emotional tole you'd have to go through in order to surrender) to understand and decide to obey, make a conscious effort to submit. In the comic I think the guy was complaining about not having a job, else my mind jumped there in comparison to people in my life. Anyhow, in that sense I think education would be great for the majority. I think it's not so much that people are unemployed and our economy is suffering yada yada but that the people who are unemployed, who are collecting government unemployment in some cases, don't believe they should obey. Haven't been taught how to, and why it would be a good thing in their life. I'm not saying the economy isn't shitty or that that isn't a real thing, just that people I know and have seen struggle are struggling because of their ego and in turn aren't helping anyone and more-so making their own situation worse.

I think higher education would be needed to get peoples egos in check at the least, though maybe that would backfire? I don't know. I know that I would go back to college if it weren't so expensive. I actually had this conversation with myself the other day. I would like to go, be back in that environment, however I don't have the funds to go and I think that sucks. If you want to learn, regardless of getting a job, you want to learn but you don't have the money to learn you can't learn and that's the shitty realization that I personally have come to. With that, just that in mind people have to decide whether or not a higher education is right for them right now. A lot of people don't have the funds and depending on what line of work would peek their interest they may not having many, or any, job opportunists. Saying that you don't need a higher education ever, yes, is close minded. Saying that if you wait you're life will be easier, not so much. Guidance in the ways of others is something I'll always appreciate.
 
DonTaushMe said:
I agree. If what I had said came off as all knowing I apologize. My opinion is always being revised and I am glad you wrote this, maybe not so much in the tone lol but glad none the less.

I have seen what you are talking about with people getting comfortable in their knowledge. I was talking to an Uncle of an ex one night, he was telling me all about how he worked at Disney with my ex's stepfather doing the artistry and how when digital came in they were all shooed out. And I asked him further questions because that really just didn't make sense to me that they would fire all the people they have. He explained that they gave them an ultimatum, to either learn how to contribute in the new digital world of computer graphics or they could take a, severance package? and move on. He went off on a rant about how they shouldn't have to learn new things, and it really just sounded like a hardheaded bitter old man complaining about being taken out of his comfort zone. I for the life of me couldn't understand why he wouldn't try, however said nothing as he was getting very heated.

I read this comic the other day a friend of mine on Facebook posted (she's into the teachings of mindfulness without knowing the over all idea of mindfulness which is kind of a great thing about the internet) it was a comic talking about... *sigh* I can't find it, but one of the things that was mentioned was learning to obey. The example given was that of going to the military and having your confidence be squashed to nothing and all you can do is follow orders and instead of doing that (going through the emotional tole you'd have to go through in order to surrender) to understand and decide to obey, make a conscious effort to submit. In the comic I think the guy was complaining about not having a job, else my mind jumped there in comparison to people in my life. Anyhow, in that sense I think education would be great for the majority. I think it's not so much that people are unemployed and our economy is suffering yada yada but that the people who are unemployed, who are collecting government unemployment in some cases, don't believe they should obey. Haven't been taught how to, and why it would be a good thing in their life. I'm not saying the economy isn't shitty or that that isn't a real thing, just that people I know and have seen struggle are struggling because of their ego and in turn aren't helping anyone and more-so making their own situation worse.

I think higher education would be needed to get peoples egos in check at the least, though maybe that would backfire? I don't know. I know that I would go back to college if it weren't so expensive. I actually had this conversation with myself the other day. I would like to go, be back in that environment, however I don't have the funds to go and I think that sucks. If you want to learn, regardless of getting a job, you want to learn but you don't have the money to learn you can't learn and that's the shitty realization that I personally have come to. With that, just that in mind people have to decide whether or not a higher education is right for them right now. A lot of people don't have the funds and depending on what line of work would peek their interest they may not having many, or any, job opportunists. Saying that you don't need a higher education ever, yes, is close minded. Saying that if you wait you're life will be easier, not so much. Guidance in the ways of others is something I'll always appreciate.
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yeah, I kinda went on a little rant. :D I didn't meant to say higher education will solve all our problems or make things better or perfect. I think college education should be free, at least the first two years. I don't think people should be in debt for the rest of their lives to get an education for the sake of earning a living. At this point I think everyone should have the chance to graduate with something that can get them a job. I don't think it's fair for someone to spend thousands of dollars in education and not be able to earn a decent living. I think technical education is underrated and my suggestion is that more traditional colleges should offer technical degrees. The problem in the past was technical degrees was seen as something only those who weren't good at school should do. Hopefully, we're getting over that way of thinking and give credit to that type of skill that it deserves. Problem is, many of the colleges which offer tech degrees are offered by private schools or college where the cost of education is extremely high. It's ridiculous. If they would simply integrate these skill based degrees in the traditional college. In any case, higher education may no longer required as a necessity. It seems certification and licensing through testing may soon take over.

Besides this, I appreciate higher education for how much it opens up our thinking and understanding of the world. My concern is that too many people are tunnel vision when it comes to education. They come in to the classroom to have their feelings and beliefs reinforced and don't learn things that could help them improve their opportunities later on because they are stuck on using education as a means to an end, rather than seeing it as both - means to an end and an end in itself. This reminds me of when someone comes into a classroom with prejudices. They think they're the smartest person in the world because of what they know about the world. These people move into jobs where they are managers, supervisors, etc. and they perpetrate the same prejudices and judgments they've been exposed to. They don't don't question the ethics or fairness of the thinking that influences their decision making on the job because they already know. If someone makes suggestions for new ways of doing things, they easily dismiss it and see it as a challenge to their authority, than something that could improve a system or operation. This is what education was also meant to do - to give someone a set of tools or options they could use, so that they would not feel limited in the resources available to make decisions. So, even if someone is very financially successful, doesn't mean they are necessarily using fair or sound reasoning to make decisions especially when managing other people. Also, the work world often sucks in helping people develop their talents and knowing how to help people develop their natural skills in the job. Instead, most jobs teach people to work in their model. This means that someone becomes successful in conforming to a company's model, but the skills except for soft skills are non-transferable when go to another job. People should have the knowledge and skills which permit them to have choices and not feel limited or stuck working for companies who merely want to use them to earn a profit. Today, companies are out for themselves, not the worker. Education is supposed to be the great equalizer which makes people feel they are not simply pawns in someone else's chess game. I've often thought the general education requirements need to be revamped. Many colleges have people take classes in things they don't need or will ever truly use, which is about making the colleges more money while leaving graduates unable to find a job when they graduate. So, yes, there needs to be changes on all sides.


In any case, one of the most difficult things for people when they get to college, is that it's supposed to get you out of your comfort zone, and open up your thinking about what's possible rather than settling with status quo. If people don't realize this, then they will continue to curse education for not being what they think it should, not realizing that if it challenged you and made you uncomfortable with what you currently think especially if what is thought is discriminatory or closed, then it did what it was supposed to do. Expecting education to simply reflect how we feel (because we are paying for it) is the antithesis of what should be the real goal of education.
 
[MENTION=1669]Framed[/MENTION]

Yeah, for me the education system was too closed minded and never challenged me at all.

Technical degrees are a lot more useful than before though because all the engineering stuff falls in there and we love our gadgets now days. The paradigm of technology has been bumped up a lot.

At this stage microprocessors can have millions of transistors. Modern processors are like having enough PDP-1s to fill an apartment building. You basically need computers to build computers now.

Edit: and actually having a modern processor is like having several times more PDP-1s than were actually made.
 
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sprinkles said:
@Framed

Yeah, for me the education system was too closed minded and never challenged me at all.

Technical degrees are a lot more useful than before though because all the engineering stuff falls in there and we love our gadgets now days. The paradigm of technology has been bumped up a lot.

At this stage microprocessors can have millions of transistors. Modern processors are like having enough PDP-1s to fill an apartment building. You basically need computers to build computers now.

Edit: and actually having a modern processor is like having several times more PDP-1s than were actually made.
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@sprinkles, the classroom may not challenge you because your understanding was far more advanced than the content was meant to cover. However, for someone else the same content could have been an eye opener because they've never been introduced to it before. Every person enters the classroom with different backgrounds, experiences, expectations, at various educational levels and with varied competencies. A single class can't accommodate all levels. The curriculum adapts to the necessary competencies it is meant to teach. That's why you have various types and levels of education. Some people do better with self directed, independent learning while others prefer more guided instruction.

Fact is, if people want to learn more, they can study on their own and do further reading. Classrooms can't prevent anyone from adding to what they know. The world is always changing, knowledge changes.

Edit: Despite my poorly worded tirade on work/life experience, fact is more classrooms are using a more open model allowing students to integrate their work and life experience in what they are studying so that it is more practical and applicable. Fewer classrooms are about dictating today than they are about accommodating and facilitating.
 
Framed said:
@sprinkles, the classroom may not challenge you because your understanding was far more advanced than the content was meant to cover. However, for someone else the same content could have been an eye opener because they've never been introduced to it before. Every person enters the classroom with different backgrounds, experiences, expectations, at various educational levels and with varied competencies. A single class can't accommodate all levels. The curriculum adapts to the necessary competencies it is meant to teach. That's why you have various types and levels of education. Some people do better with self directed, independent learning while others prefer more guided instruction.

Fact is, if people want to learn more, they can study on their own and do further reading. Classrooms can't prevent anyone from adding to what they know. The world is always changing, knowledge changes.

Edit: Despite my poorly worded tirade on work/life experience, fact is more classrooms are using a more open model allowing students to integrate their work and life experience in what they are studying so that it is more practical and applicable. Fewer classrooms are about dictating today than they are about accommodating and facilitating.
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Yes.

My problem was time. Sure, you can study on your own but this is more difficult when you must complete things to turn it in simply because you have to do the work. I understand that this helps teach responsibility and dependability and showing that you can follow instructions - but those things would still work regardless even if the material was more tailored to not hold some people back.

It would allow time to be used more efficiently. Instead of going outside the formal education to learn more, you could be learning more at the same time instead. And you know, actually have a life and stuff.
 
[MENTION=1669]Framed[/MENTION]

And on that note, one thing I think could help with that is stopping with the standardization where people are supposed to learn things for a certain year.

That was a problem I found in school - they kept prerequisites together and it was an exception to be bumped up in anything. I think bumping up in relevant areas should be the norm because the fields differ. Some people may require a lower class in one area but higher classes in the rest. Individual classes might not be able to tailor to absolutely everybody but I think the classes one takes as a whole should definitely be able to.

I don't know how it is now though because it's been years.
 
I went to a liberal arts university and ended up in a technical field. Had I known what I was going to be doing I could have went to a vocational college instead and saved time and money. But despite this, if I were given an opportunity to do it all over again, I would still go to the liberal arts college over the vocational school. The knowledge I obtained was invaluable and has made me a life long learner and an educated citizen of our republic. In brief, I agree with [MENTION=1669]Framed[/MENTION]: College is more than about how much you'll get paid after graduating, it is about the attainment of knowledge and using that knowledge to make our society a better place. For me, the money and the struggle were well worth it in the end. I will have my student loans payed off in about four months, ten years after graduating. I am so excited about finally paying it off that the mere thought of it makes me want to dance. For once, I think I just may.
 
sprinkles said:
[MENTION=1669]Framed[/MENTION]

And on that note, one thing I think could help with that is stopping with the standardization where people are supposed to learn things for a certain year.

That was a problem I found in school - they kept prerequisites together and it was an exception to be bumped up in anything. I think bumping up in relevant areas should be the norm because the fields differ. Some people may require a lower class in one area but higher classes in the rest. Individual classes might not be able to tailor to absolutely everybody but I think the classes one takes as a whole should definitely be able to.

I don't know how it is now though because it's been years.
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I agree, there's so many issues with assessment...and to add on to what [MENTION=1669]Framed[/MENTION] said, that there are a range of learning styles, levels of knowledge, etc. in a classroom, that assessment really can't measure someone's growth in learning.

What are we trying to measure? Someone's ability to retain content knowledge, or someone's growth from the beginning to the end of the course? I think traditional assessments limits our ability to teach to a variety of levels, and provide more experiential learning opportunities and independent studies.
 
say what said:
I agree, there's so many issues with assessment...and to add on to what [MENTION=1669]Framed[/MENTION] said, that there are a range of learning styles, levels of knowledge, etc. in a classroom, that assessment really can't measure someone's growth in learning.

What are we trying to measure? Someone's ability to retain content knowledge, or someone's growth from the beginning to the end of the course? I think traditional assessments limits our ability to teach to a variety of levels, and provide more experiential learning opportunities and independent studies.
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Yes. I find the education system over complicates things as well.

For example I still don't understand how they've managed to give many people the impression that they do not understand binary.

What is 10 x 11 in decimal? It is 110
What is 10 x 11 in binary?

It is 110

If you know decimal you also know binary. Most people have already been taught it and don't even know.
 
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