Downtalking "Western culture"

[Skathac]

From a Native persepctive:

Okay, I don't have any problem with someone being respectful of and even admire a culture not their own. I dislike the ever so vague underlying message of "oh because we (being non-Natives) just LOVE that whole Native thing you got going on, it must be good". Like having the non-Native external approval is what every Native was panting for...oh please...oh please....tell us that we are peachy keen just the way we are...that our beliefs mean something....

I do however shudder at the over-the-top Indian Lovers out there who delude themselves into thinking they ARE Native when they are not.

I struggled when I was growing up trying to figure out which cultural group I fit in with and found out overall it was none of them. I loved researching my ancestral roots until I discovered that much of my family is buried on the huge block of land that the federal government drew a big square around so they would have someplace to blow things up in my county.

 

[Skathac]

Lol

I would argue its because despite having many comforts many people in the west are not satisfied

I would also argue that a life where there are many comforts but no one has to think much for themselves about how things are run is a very unnatural state for human beings who have evolved over 200,000 years to be hunter gatherers having to think for themselves, exercise their own judgement, have direct involvement in their community and use a number of different skill sets in a number of different ways on a day to day basis

Give it another decade of consumerism and i think we are going to see some serious soul searching in the west

Or we'll end up like the movie Idiocracy. I have to fight the urge to take away people's cell phones and stomp them repeatedly. Some tools are not beneficial to our advancement as a species or culture.

I dunno muir, I wonder if it is even possible for most americans to find satisfaction within their lives. Most of em feel they just need more crap to show to their friends. Ugg see that Steve have stick, Ugg got better stick and now Steve envious of Ugg's stick. Ugg satisfied.

 

[muir]

Or we'll end up like the movie Idiocracy. I have to fight the urge to take away people's cell phones and stomp them repeatedly. Some tools are not beneficial to our advancement as a species or culture.

I dunno muir, I wonder if it is even possible for most americans to find satisfaction within their lives. Most of em feel they just need more crap to show to their friends. Ugg see that Steve have stick, Ugg got better stick and now Steve envious of Ugg's stick. Ugg satisfied.

That's because they have been conditioned to think that way

Public relations, consumerism, mass media etc. it is all geared towards making people measure themselves and their worth in a materialistic way. It wasn't always this way and the questioning of western culture (corporate culture) is a reaction against what is an unnatural state of affairs

 

[Faye]

A good example of how westerners do this is with Buddhism. We take only the very best of Buddhism, elevate it above Christianity, and then ignore the rest of it.

That being said, I like Buddhism, but at least I know that I am only getting the distilled version of it. Christianity or any other organized religion can seem fantastic if you distill it and ignore its cultural context and history too.

 

[Solongo]

It's just another form of ethnocentrism. All cultures do it, not just North Americans.

 

[Quiet]

This is an interesting thread. i think that i may come across to others in this way. I cant say what others reasons are but i can try to explain myself.

Firstly, i love Australia. It seems to be the best place for me to live. The only other places i may want to live permanently are Holland and France. But im really happy here. I am not patriotic but i consider myself a committed citizen. I pay taxes and contribute to my nation in whichever way i can. I want to see this place flourish, but i also want to see all places flourish equally. I dont wave flags and i dont think that we are particularly special, and i often disagree with what my government or other Australians say or do.

The culture is hard to describe here. It is a melting pot and there are millions of subcultures. And all these cultures are constantly changing and the people are constantly changing. Normally people seem to subscribe to a variety of these subcultures, at various points in their lives for various personal and cultural reasons. Theres a lot about these cultures i like and a lot i dont like. Overall i find them interesting but inadequate. I feel that way about every single culture in the world, all through history- interesting, inadequate. I see culture as constructed sematic frameworks that are continiuosly evolving.

The dominant culture here seems to be Anglocentric- which makes sense because we are a dominant English speaking nation. Although Australia is in the Asia Pacific region, we have close ties to other English speaking nations such as the Uk, USA, and Canada. Elements of Christianity are also an important part of the culture here. We celebrate Christian holidays and refer to the Bible during certain important ceremonies.

But normally when i speak against the 'western' culture, im talking about 'consumerism' or capitalistic culture. And i think it is pretty self explanatory that consumerism is shit and should be shat upon.

I dont really think that all these countries in the 'West' have the same culture. Each European country seems to have such a unique cultural experience, they all speak so many different languages and even within an English speaking country like Australia or Uk, there are so many different dialects and cultures that i cant really grasp that they are one culture.

I also have a lot of relatives and friends that would be consider themselves to be 'western' or 'eastern', whatever that really means. Some are athiests, christians, buddhists, hindus and muslims. I have always found it diffilcut to identify myself with a culture as i find culture so intrinsically foolish. My parents were born in Fiji and they are of Indian descent, My grandparents are one side are Nepalese and on the other side we think they are Irani, but we dont really know for sure. I grew up in a very christianised environment and ive never felt a strong tie to any part of my background. I was taught that all people are my brothers and my sisters and we are equal under the eyes of God. I have never been to India and i dont really know what the culture would be like there, i can only guess. From what i can see it seems very heterogenous anyway and there doesnt seem to be a single dominant culture. They seem to speak a lot of different languages over there too. People never know where 'i am from' or my 'background' when they meet me. I looked pretty ambigious, neutral and somewhat generic. Most people assume i am a mix of something and people have guessed just about every other 'ethnicity' under the sun. People dont seem to like it when i tell them im Australian. They just look at me and then say, but where are you really from? When i say indian descent, they normally say something cringeworthy like- oh so you're a hindu or buddhist, you must make really good curry. Well i do make really good curry but i also make really good pasta, sushi and mash. Im an excellent cook and i like all food, i dont care where it originated from. If i like it i will eat it. If i really like it i will cook it myself and eat it. I dont care if the way i cook it is entirely traditional or if i substitute a few ingredients. I may completely change it and invent something new. I may incorporate several different cooking styles and food from different cultures. I may eat this delicious mish mash in one day, or even in one meal. I find the history of food and recipes interesting but overall i dont truly care, its about the food. I dont pretend that my food is 'authentic' and i dont care if it is. I just care if it tastes good, to me.

The way i feel about food can be generalised to how i feel about culture. There's parts- certain thoughts and strands- that i like- and others that i dont like. I dont see the problem in me picking and choosing, keeping what i want and ignoring the rest. With the parts i choose, i then adapt them to suit my lifestyle, or sometimes i adapt my lifestyle to better suit a new idea. What is the point of being traditional or a purist? It makes no sense to me at all. Its fine if others want to be that way, but its not for me. I think its fine to appreciate certain aspect of a culture and dislike others, adopt certain principles but not adopt the entirety of the culture.

I do find it irritating when people make blanket statements like buddhism is better than christianity. That is ignorant. All religions are interesting but inadequate. Im sorry if that is offensive for me to say, but alteast its equally offensive to all people. Some people are really into their religion and get a lot out of it, and i think there is a lot we can get out of all religions. There is so much about all religions that i love and cherish. I have no inclination to become religious and join a religion though. Its not about the religion anyway, its about how the religion is intepreted, the other cultures in that region, and ofcourse the people and environment. Like, for fucks sake, Cambodia and Burma are supposedly Buddhist countries! What can we say about that? All religions and cultures are liable to be grossly misunderstood, misintepreted and poorly implemented. But it doesnt even make sense to say this because that would imply that culture is static, and it is clear that culture is not static, not concrete, not objective and only exists in the minds of the people that choose to let it occupy space among the neurons in their brain and their cellular memory of their heart. Culture only exists in our heads! Apart form that, culture doesnt even fucking exist, let alone exist objectively.

To put in bluntly, i guess i dont really respect any culture, but, i respect the people that hold culture. People are important to me, culture is not. Let people believe what they will and i hope their beliefs make them happy. If belonging or subscribing to a certain culture does that, then thats great.

And just to complete my bizzare rant- I have always felt instinctively drawn to certain cultures and places. I have memories of being in different places and different times and speaking different languages. I see all those memories as part of me but they are not me, they are not my identity. The same as my current 'heritage' or 'ethnicity' or culture, whatever you want to call it. It may be a part of me but it is not who i am, it is certainly not my identity. I am more than those things and i dont need them to 'be'. I cant see why this whole Earth doesnt belong to me. I dont want to choose and subscribe to one small part of it, i want it all. I take joy and pride in the accomplishment and success of all people and i feel sad and cry at all peoples suffering. I reserve the right to change my mind whenever i see fit and completely change my beliefs and culture, on my terms, not other peoples, and certainly not based on beliefs of other cultures.

 

[Trifoilum]

Yeah I've seen it once in a while from people from other places but it's usually from people who have strong political beliefs or things like that. It's not as much of a cute, casual topic.

In here it -is- a casual topic. To be anything other than a nationalist is a trolling bait here, but there's always been a casual interest towards other country's culture, in the vein of 'if you call yourself cool, then you must like these American / Japanese / Chinese / XXX culture here. You love INDONESIAN CULTURE!?!??!? Hick.'

I, for one, have the same affliction. But there are also others.

Roughly a quarter or so of 9gag's visitor are Indonesian, for instance.

Is Canada a cultural juggernaut?

Well, Beiber...

Still, I always saw them as being like America but a bit more like Britain if not even a little better than Britian. Like Apone said, though, they're up to dodgy stuff just like the USA and UK anyway.

There have been some good posts. Interesting thread.

Well, for us, Canada, American, and British are probably lumped as one being, as far as pop culture are concerned. Adele; Justin Bieber; Kylie Minogue.. Eh, they are all Americans, aren't they? /sarcasm

A good example of how westerners do this is with Buddhism. We take only the very best of Buddhism, elevate it above Christianity, and then ignore the rest of it.

That being said, I like Buddhism, but at least I know that I am only getting the distilled version of it. Christianity or any other organized religion can seem fantastic if you distill it and ignore its cultural context and history too.

As someone living in a (somewhat) Buddhist country, yes, I think I can attest to this.
The version of Buddhist spreading across the internet is the pristine glass-bottled 20$ water version of Buddhist.
The same as the version of Christianity and the salvation the people are preaching about.

The human version....eh, pretty much the same as Christians there.

 

[Flavus Aquila]

Interesting point

Why do you think that is?

I think Western culture is having a downer right now because we've sacrificed everything for the sake of material and moral comfort and freedom. While these are good things in a certain respect, they have come at the cost of our sense of meaning, identity and relationships.

What does it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, but suffer the loss of his own soul?

Western culture is pretty soulless at present.

 

[muir]

I think Western culture is having a downer right now because we've sacrificed everything for the sake of material and moral comfort and freedom. While these are good things in a certain respect, they have come at the cost of our sense of meaning, identity and relationships.

What does it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, but suffer the loss of his own soul?

Western culture is pretty soulless at present.

Yeah i'd agree that an imbalance has developed

It then becomes really interesting to look into why that has happened and who is steering that development

 

[Flavus Aquila]

Yeah i'd agree that an imbalance has developed

It then becomes really interesting to look into why that has happened and who is steering that development

Destined to end up in conspiracy theories that path is.

I think it is important for people to cultivate their own depth of life and identity.

Even though modern Western society is geared against family values, spirituality, and morals (at the big-picture level), I think there is still great opportunity to develop these things at a personal and friendship level. So while society might not evoke much in terms of meaning in life - it is still possible to find some for yourself.

 

[muir]

Destined to end up in conspiracy theories that path is.

I think it is important for people to cultivate their own depth of life and identity.

Even though modern Western society is geared against family values, spirituality, and morals (at the big-picture level), I think there is still great opportunity to develop these things at a personal and friendship level. So while society might not evoke much in terms of meaning in life - it is still possible to find some for yourself.

I think people need to learn to discearn between conspiracy theory and conspiracy fact

The reality is that the elites have demonised the process of questioning by calling it 'conspiracy theory' and associating that with negative things

People should be stronger in the mind than that and not let themselves be thrown off the scent of the truth so easily

 

[barbad0s]

In here it -is- a casual topic. To be anything other than a nationalist is a trolling bait here, but there's always been a casual interest towards other country's culture, in the vein of 'if you call yourself cool, then you must like these American / Japanese / Chinese / XXX culture here. You love INDONESIAN CULTURE!?!??!? Hick.'

Hmm I totally know what you mean here. Especially to people from Indonesia/Singapore/Thailand/Vietnam/Philippines/Hong Kong/China.... things produced from Korea/Japan/Taiwan/the outside world have always been hot and popular.

Methinks it is different though. It is a "cute, casual topic" like I described, but that type of interaction is limited to cute, casual topics... if you know what I mean. For example, over there, people would rarely ever drop something into a conversation like, "Well, in Western ideology, (insert something about Plato's observations here)" -- especially rarely with the same connotations that Westerners would engage in the inverse of it with. They would rarely say, "Well there has been a thousand year old health practice from France I read about today." At most for Asians it would be people like chio girls talking about the latest beauty secret from Japan that they read about. People would rarely get involved in the spirituality or ideologies from these other countries (partially because within Asia people are already accustomed to the various Eastern religions and ideologies).

The version of Buddhist spreading across the internet is the pristine glass-bottled 20$ water version of Buddhist.

Yes, seriously.

 

[muir]

Hmm I totally know what you mean here. Especially to people from Indonesia/Singapore/Thailand/Vietnam/Philippines/Hong Kong/China.... things produced from Korea/Japan/Taiwan/the outside world have always been hot and popular.

Methinks it is different though. It is a "cute, casual topic" like I described, but that type of interaction is limited to cute, casual topics... if you know what I mean. For example, over there, people would rarely ever drop something into a conversation like, "Well, in Western ideology, (insert something about Plato's observations here)" -- especially rarely with the same connotations that Westerners would engage in the inverse of it with. They would rarely say, "Well there has been a thousand year old health practice from France I read about today." At most for Asians it would be people like chio girls talking about the latest beauty secret from Japan that they read about. People would rarely get involved in the spirituality or ideologies from these other countries (partially because within Asia people are already accustomed to the various Eastern religions and ideologies).



Yes, seriously.

I think you're getting into really interesting territory here!

My perspective on that is that western culture has been aggressively exported around the world. Examples of this are the TV programmes 'baywatch' and 'friends'. Some might not be old enought to remember a time before these sort of programmes, but i can

These programmes sent a message around the globe. The subtext of baywatch was: 'western women are easy and available' and 'the western system means lots of sex'

The subtext to friends was: 'in the west people don't really have to work much but can still own a big apartment in the centre of town; the only things they really have to worry about is who they are going to date next'

Other exports have been coca cola and blue jeans. Well blue jeans are actually not a bad product when made well...they can be pretty hard wearing so i'll cut them some slack! But coca cola has no nutritional value at all. It is carbonated sugar water. I've been in a majority world country and seen crates of coca cola being transported around on the backs of donkeys.....it has even outpaced motor transport. Do hard working people around the world really need carbonated sugar water or do they need clean drinking water?

In that same country i was sitting in a cafe on the edge of a desert in a tiny settlement, it was 1999. There was barely anything there but there was a TV on the wall that was playing an eminem music video. He was sitting in the back of a shiny red convertable covered in sparkly bling with a couple of scantliy dressed ladies on either side of him poring all over him. i think he was chucking dollar bills around as he was rapping to the camera.

I turned from this brash, loud and soulless scene on the TV to look around the cafe at the locals to see what their reaction to this was. I saw some very conservatively dressed muslim men enjoying a quiet drink of tea. It occured to me that suddenly due to satellite TV western culture was being beamed around the world and that it would have a huge affect on the perceptions of people.

I realised that the subconscious message of the music video was: 'in america the streets are paved with gold and women throw themselves at you'

I've told this story on this forum before a couple of years ago. In the same post i said i believed that as a result of these changes in our world there was going to be massive upheval in the middle east. We then saw the arab spring kick off.

Many people are rushing headlong to get what they might call 'western democracy' but i wonder if they really know what that means or whether their perceptions have been created by the trashy TV shows exported by the west

How many people in the west feel like the streets are paved with gold right now?

Here's another perception: western pop culture is corporate manufactured rubbish designed to distort peoples perceptions of reality to such a degree as to hypnotise them into living in a fantasy world with very little basis in actual reality

 

[Quiet]

[MENTION=1871]muir[/MENTION]

exportation of our consumerism is certainly rife and nasty. In regards to music videos and movies, i have no doubt that these would have an effect on people's perceptions but i think that it is mostly 'western' (consumeristic culture) people that keenly feel these effect. Im know that many of my friends and family, and others i have met from other nations and cultures are disgusted and adverse to that sort of thing. However, Im sure that those of the younger generations certainly feel different and are particularly vulnerable to the effects of these videos than their parents are.

I guess it is very complicated in some ways. Many people in the majority world live in places that are very sexist and repressive, and dont have the fundamentals like basic security. For these people, everything is uphill. I have no doubt that many of them would be quite happy to live in a Western nation or in a more westernised, downturn or not. And i hate to say it, but a lot of 'westerners' are whingers and dont appreciate the freedoms and blessings that they have. I wont say too much about that but i think that is a direct product of consumeristic culture. Anyway, teenagers particularly in the majority world would probably just love the opportunity to be able to not repress their identity and sexuality. I think for many of these people, it is a shock and amazing to know that others in the world have such different lifestyles. I think this gives them hope that change is possible.

And that is where it gets really ugly. I watched a great doco (sorry i cant remember the name right now) that discussed how CocaCola were marketing 'freedom' in middle eastern nations through their advertising campaign. Obviously coke were doing this so they can sell coke and apperantly that was a great success. But the campaign worked so well that kids started emulating the ads, trying to wear street clothes, drink coke and stand up for freedom. WTF. Given how i feel about coca cola (die die, damn you Coke) this makes me feel physically ill. But i guess its all about changing perceptions and giving people hope. somehow this ad campaign was able to act as catalyst for some young people. I would never every say this is why the Arab Spring occured as that is a very complex and mulifaceted issue, but im sure this crappy and successful coke campaign contributed.

I understand that corporations are trying to make as much money as possible and 'neutrally' live their psychopathic existance, but i still find it incredibly sickening how they lie and manipulate ignorant/vulnerable people. Especaily when it comes to food. Food is an essential and is something that all humans connect with. To use food to manipulate and trap is the lowest common denominator. Anything can taste good cheaply by adding enough sugar, salt and fat. Food like this is not only unhealthy and devoid of true nutrition to our bodies, it is also addictive. It causes so many different types of disease that these countries will never be able to address in terms of public health. fast and non-nutritious food is a product of sick culture
Globesity is a great doco that looks at these issues and how corporations are blatantly lying to people and selling them sickness and death.
http://undergrounddocumentaries.com/globesity-fats-new-frontier-full-version/
It is so upsetting when these bastards tell mothers that buying this food is the best way to care for their children. Literally vampires preying on the innocent, vulnerable and ignorant. Nestle tells people that chocolate is an excellent source of nutrition and energy for children! Die Nestle! I'll never eat your corrupted kit kats again. I do believe that overal it is always the individual's responsibility, but it is criminal when people lie to the innocent people to make a buck. And the goverments of these nations are not doing much to act because they are blinded by money and short term gain.

 

[muir]

@muir

exportation of our consumerism is certainly rife and nasty. In regards to music videos and movies, i have no doubt that these would have an effect on people's perceptions but i think that it is mostly 'western' (consumeristic culture) people that keenly feel these effect.

I don't agree with that. Westerners are the most exposed to this stuff so it has already percolated into their psyche over years of exposure. The most jarring effect is on cultures unfamiliar with it who are suddenly exposed to it. For example Bhutan is very concerned about outside influence. You have to pay a daily rate for every day you spend in the country to minimise the time that westeners spend there. This is to help preserve their own culture from the pervasive influence of western culture

Sudden exposure occured with satellite TV (go on to a roof top in many majority world towns/cities and look out at the sea of satellite dishes and reflect for a moment that they weren't always there) and then with the internet; these have been massive events for humanity

Im know that many of my friends and family, and others i have met from other nations and cultures are disgusted and adverse to that sort of thing. However, Im sure that those of the younger generations certainly feel different and are particularly vulnerable to the effects of these videos than their parents are.

I'd say the young generally are more likely to move geographically and to want for example to pursue a new life abroad in a new culture

I guess it is very complicated in some ways. Many people in the majority world live in places that are very sexist and repressive, and dont have the fundamentals like basic security.

So do many in the 'western' world!

For these people, everything is uphill. I have no doubt that many of them would be quite happy to live in a Western nation or in a more westernised, downturn or not.

I think that the west is in flux and that many of the immigrants who poured over when the EU expanded are beginning to go home. I think many people are leaving majority world countries fleeing upheaval (which western countries are usually the cause of!) and they might find a degree of security in the west but i think the situation in the west is about to take a turn for the worse economically and in as a result terms of individual security

And i hate to say it, but a lot of 'westerners' are whingers and dont appreciate the freedoms and blessings that they have.

I think that it is much deeper than that. i think there is a lesson in the western experience. I think that if you look at it objectively it becomes clear that when people are cossetted and smothered with comforts but lack meaning and purpose or a more spiritual aspect to their lives then they generally feel unsatisfied. This should be a warning to countries who are currently industrialising....they should take note that the western countries do not have all the answers and tht perhaps they shouldn't blindly ape everything the western countries do in an attempt to replicate them

I wont say too much about that but i think that is a direct product of consumeristic culture. Anyway, teenagers particularly in the majority world would probably just love the opportunity to be able to not repress their identity and sexuality. I think for many of these people, it is a shock and amazing to know that others in the world have such different lifestyles. I think this gives them hope that change is possible.

I would expect cases of depression to be higher in western countries

And that is where it gets really ugly. I watched a great doco (sorry i cant remember the name right now) that discussed how CocaCola were marketing 'freedom' in middle eastern nations through their advertising campaign. Obviously coke were doing this so they can sell coke and apperantly that was a great success. But the campaign worked so well that kids started emulating the ads, trying to wear street clothes, drink coke and stand up for freedom. WTF. Given how i feel about coca cola (die die, damn you Coke) this makes me feel physically ill. But i guess its all about changing perceptions and giving people hope. somehow this ad campaign was able to act as catalyst for some young people. I would never every say this is why the Arab Spring occured as that is a very complex and mulifaceted issue, but im sure this crappy and successful coke campaign contributed.

This is no coincidence!

Coca cola are part of a corporatocracy. The boundaries between big business and government in the west have dissapeared. This is what Mussolini called fascism. The government represents the interests of coca cola and coca cola represent the interests of the government because the two are essentially part of the same thing. So yes the west is fighting a culture war against the rest of the world where it is trying to sell the western way of doing thinsg to the rest of the world.

What this really means is: 'let us come in and exploit your markets and take over your banking system and in return we will give you lots of western comforts and a puppet leader'

I understand that corporations are trying to make as much money as possible and 'neutrally' live their psychopathic existance, but i still find it incredibly sickening how they lie and manipulate ignorant/vulnerable people. Especaily when it comes to food. Food is an essential and is something that all humans connect with. To use food to manipulate and trap is the lowest common denominator. Anything can taste good cheaply by adding enough sugar, salt and fat. Food like this is not only unhealthy and devoid of true nutrition to our bodies, it is also addictive. It causes so many different types of disease that these countries will never be able to address in terms of public health. fast and non-nutritious food is a product of sick culture

It really isn't all just about money it is about power. It is about the powers behind the western corporations seeking to spread their tentacles around the world

Globesity is a great doco that looks at these issues and how corporations are blatantly lying to people and selling them sickness and death.
http://undergrounddocumentaries.com/globesity-fats-new-frontier-full-version/
It is so upsetting when these bastards tell mothers that buying this food is the best way to care for their children. Literally vampires preying on the innocent, vulnerable and ignorant. Nestle tells people that chocolate is an excellent source of nutrition and energy for children! Die Nestle! I'll never eat your corrupted kit kats again. I do believe that overal it is always the individual's responsibility, but it is criminal when people lie to the innocent people to make a buck. And the goverments of these nations are not doing much to act because they are blinded by money and short term gain.

Nestles most famous crime was convincing african mothers that their baby powder was better for them than their mothers milk. I think this resulted in a lot of deaths

 

[Quiet]

I don't agree with that. Westerners are the most exposed to this stuff so it has already percolated into their psyche over years of exposure. The most jarring effect is on cultures unfamiliar with it who are suddenly exposed to it. For example Bhutan is very concerned about outside influence. You have to pay a daily rate for every day you spend in the country to minimise the time that westeners spend there. This is to help preserve their own culture from the pervasive influence of western culture

I guess we will have to agree to disagree. Or perhaps we are agreeing. I am not entirely sure sometimes when we talk. As you mentioned in your example about Bhutan, some cultures are very resistant to influences outside their culture and they prefer to be homegenous. China is very resistant to certain Western influences but it is clear that they are getting onto the consumeristic bandwagon, this is particulary prevalent amongst the younger population.

I think the effect on 'Westerners' are worse because these images and concepts perpetuated in popular media continue to strengthen our already entretched cultural attitudes of consumerism. These concepts and images that we see are not shocking to us, they merely reinforce what we are use to and have come to expect. I think this is in mnay ways worse than the effect it has on cultures that are resistant to this influence.

Sudden exposure occured with satellite TV (go on to a roof top in many majority world towns/cities and look out at the sea of satellite dishes and reflect for a moment that they weren't always there) and then with the internet; these have been massive events for humanity

I understand this. I think that there is both advantages and disadvantages associated to this. I personally think any widening of cultural perspective and thought is a good thing, regardless of how 'negative' the influence may seem. We live in a wide and diverse world, and media is bringing the world into people's homes all over the globe. It is then up to the people in those homes to do what they choose with that information. The more information and awarenes they have, the better.

I'd say the young generally are more likely to move geographically and to want for example to pursue a new life abroad in a new culture

This is probably a highly desirable option, but one that is not readily available to the majority of youth. I also think that many young people may not want to leave their families, home and land. There are many that would like to cultivate a more preferable culture at home.

So do many in the 'western' world!

This is undeniably true, but i dont think that it is as repressive in the 'western' world. This is a complicated issue, but i think, generally, 'westerners' have more access to information and freedom of thought through which they can potentialy liberate themselves from repression. It is more difficult in cultures that are more homogeneous and closed.

I think that the west is in flux and that many of the immigrants who poured over when the EU expanded are beginning to go home. I think many people are leaving majority world countries fleeing upheaval (which western countries are usually the cause of!) and they might find a degree of security in the west but i think the situation in the west is about to take a turn for the worse economically and in as a result terms of individual security

I dont know if the issue if individual security in the west is as/will be as hazardous as it is in the majority world. I dont think it will be. I have endless faith and optimism for what the future holds. The 1% cannot defeat the 99%. They will not succeed. It is the 99% that need to snap out of it and get on with it, all excuses aside. The world is already transforming and will continue to do so. People are waking up and getting on with it. There is nothing to be afraid of, just a lot of hard work in making sure we create the world we want to live in and live the lives we want to live, and isnt it ridiculous how many times i used the word 'live' in this sentence

I think that it is much deeper than that. i think there is a lesson in the western experience. I think that if you look at it objectively it becomes clear that when people are cossetted and smothered with comforts but lack meaning and purpose or a more spiritual aspect to their lives then they generally feel unsatisfied. This should be a warning to countries who are currently industrialising....they should take note that the western countries do not have all the answers and tht perhaps they shouldn't blindly ape everything the western countries do in an attempt to replicate them

Yes absolutely. This may sound whacked out, but i think basically what is happening is that those living in a consumeristic culture having become fixated in and have overdeveloped their first 3 chakras. Many people are not able to balance themselves and move foward. Their lives revolve entirely around the seeking of and maintaining security. They are constantly defensive and offensive to protect their ego. They have become shallow and over indulgent with the pleasures afforded to us on this plain. They are stuck in a cycle of fear- they constantly think they need more and more to be content, happy, successful, attractive etc. This results in a constant need to accumulate more and buy more, and become even more defensive and obsessed with security and protection of their accumulated plastic crap. These people become jealous, hateful, possesive and clingy. More afraid, terrified of what could happen, dont want to move foward but stay comfortable and secure in their fear prison. So many attachments. There are people that seek to benefit from people being slaves to fear. However, these people are just as caught up in fear as the ones they are trying to enslave. It is hard to say who is slave and who is master, they are both so completely dependant on each other and equally enslaved. The only thing that will break this cycle and help people start balancing their chakras is the opening of the fourth chakra- the heart chakra- which is all about Love. People will be able to break their addictions and dependance once they learn to Love themselves and open their hearts to their true qualities and strengths, to the reality of who and what they really are. This will happen soon, and will spell the death to consumeristic culture. I whole heartedly agree that these is an important lesson to the western experience. I think we will learn it well. I am sorry that is has caused pain to so many, but, we are all still learning, all in school. (And isnt that all a total bastardised improv of eastern culture made by a ignorant spoilt westerner like me!)

I would expect cases of depression to be higher in western countries

It is hard to say. Depression is certainly more likely to be considered a disease in Western nations than others. It is more likely to be diagnosed. More likely to be misunderstood. More likely to be used to an opportunity to sell more drugs and dependance. Over time i have completely reviewed and changed my mind on what 'depression' is and i've thrown much of what i learned of modern psychology out the window.

This is no coincidence!

Coca cola are part of a corporatocracy. The boundaries between big business and government in the west have dissapeared. This is what Mussolini called fascism. The government represents the interests of coca cola and coca cola represent the interests of the government because the two are essentially part of the same thing. So yes the west is fighting a culture war against the rest of the world where it is trying to sell the western way of doing thinsg to the rest of the world.

I agree, but i think that it is very complicated and not that straight foward

What this really means is: 'let us come in and exploit your markets and take over your banking system and in return we will give you lots of western comforts and a puppet leader'

Yes, that is exactly what it means

It really isn't all just about money it is about power. It is about the powers behind the western corporations seeking to spread their tentacles around the world

Money, power... i think it comes down to fear and deep insecurities

Nestles most famous crime was convincing african mothers that their baby powder was better for them than their mothers milk. I think this resulted in a lot of deaths

It certainly did. And they also sold formula that they knew was contaminated to African mothers at that time they were doing their dangerous marketing campaign that defied all we know about biology and nutrition.


.....
To anyone- on the web- that doesnt simply think im crazy- or even if you do- please think twice before you buy products from companies like Nestle and other multinational corporations. You dont have to give these people your money. Why not buy local and support someone in your community? Or buy fair trade? Every time you spend a cent of money you are using your power. Do not give these people power if you disagree with their actions.

 

[muir]

I guess we will have to agree to disagree. Or perhaps we are agreeing. I am not entirely sure sometimes when we talk. As you mentioned in your example about Bhutan, some cultures are very resistant to influences outside their culture and they prefer to be homegenous. China is very resistant to certain Western influences but it is clear that they are getting onto the consumeristic bandwagon, this is particulary prevalent amongst the younger population.

I think the effect on 'Westerners' are worse because these images and concepts perpetuated in popular media continue to strengthen our already entretched cultural attitudes of consumerism. These concepts and images that we see are not shocking to us, they merely reinforce what we are use to and have come to expect. I think this is in mnay ways worse than the effect it has on cultures that are resistant to this influence.

I see what you mean...yeah the concern is that with each new western generation they just grow up with this stuff not knowing any different; that's why the change are being brought in gradually as per the mission statement of the fabian society

I understand this. I think that there is both advantages and disadvantages associated to this. I personally think any widening of cultural perspective and thought is a good thing, regardless of how 'negative' the influence may seem. We live in a wide and diverse world, and media is bringing the world into people's homes all over the globe. It is then up to the people in those homes to do what they choose with that information. The more information and awarenes they have, the better.

By awareness i am talkign about an awareness of who is really pulling the strings and why they are doing it. it is only through greater understanding of that that people will be able to turn and face the threat. Without that knowledge they are a blind bear being poked with a stick

This is probably a highly desirable option, but one that is not readily available to the majority of youth. I also think that many young people may not want to leave their families, home and land. There are many that would like to cultivate a more preferable culture at home.

What i was referring to was the massive movements of people in recent decades as a result of the perception that the streets in the west are lined with gold

This is undeniably true, but i dont think that it is as repressive in the 'western' world. This is a complicated issue, but i think, generally, 'westerners' have more access to information and freedom of thought through which they can potentialy liberate themselves from repression. It is more difficult in cultures that are more homogeneous and closed.

Yeah china has its population on lock down but i have no illusions that the western governments aren't trying to do exactly the same....things are changing here and not for the better

I dont know if the issue if individual security in the west is as/will be as hazardous as it is in the majority world. I dont think it will be. I have endless faith and optimism for what the future holds. The 1% cannot defeat the 99%. They will not succeed. It is the 99% that need to snap out of it and get on with it, all excuses aside. The world is already transforming and will continue to do so. People are waking up and getting on with it. There is nothing to be afraid of, just a lot of hard work in making sure we create the world we want to live in and live the lives we want to live, and isnt it ridiculous how many times i used the word 'live' in this sentence

I also think that there is everything to fight for. This can only be done by an informed and knoweldgable citezanry (as eisenhower put it)

Yes absolutely. This may sound whacked out, but i think basically what is happening is that those living in a consumeristic culture having become fixated in and have overdeveloped their first 3 chakras. Many people are not able to balance themselves and move foward. Their lives revolve entirely around the seeking of and maintaining security. They are constantly defensive and offensive to protect their ego. They have become shallow and over indulgent with the pleasures afforded to us on this plain. They are stuck in a cycle of fear- they constantly think they need more and more to be content, happy, successful, attractive etc. This results in a constant need to accumulate more and buy more, and become even more defensive and obsessed with security and protection of their accumulated plastic crap. These people become jealous, hateful, possesive and clingy. More afraid, terrified of what could happen, dont want to move foward but stay comfortable and secure in their fear prison. So many attachments. There are people that seek to benefit from people being slaves to fear. However, these people are just as caught up in fear as the ones they are trying to enslave. It is hard to say who is slave and who is master, they are both so completely dependant on each other and equally enslaved. The only thing that will break this cycle and help people start balancing their chakras is the opening of the fourth chakra- the heart chakra- which is all about Love. People will be able to break their addictions and dependance once they learn to Love themselves and open their hearts to their true qualities and strengths, to the reality of who and what they really are. This will happen soon, and will spell the death to consumeristic culture. I whole heartedly agree that these is an important lesson to the western experience. I think we will learn it well. I am sorry that is has caused pain to so many, but, we are all still learning, all in school. (And isnt that all a total bastardised improv of eastern culture made by a ignorant spoilt westerner like me!)

I absolutely agree!

They are being deliberatly kept on the lower stages of consciousness to keep them in a little mind...a little me mindset, where they are totally focussed on their own little empires and are divided and fearful. Alcohol is used to keep people on these lower circuits, here's a link to learys system which equates to the chakras: http://deoxy.org/8circuit.htm, alcohol helps put someone in a level 2 state of consciousness....territorial thinking

It is hard to say. Depression is certainly more likely to be considered a disease in Western nations than others. It is more likely to be diagnosed. More likely to be misunderstood. More likely to be used to an opportunity to sell more drugs and dependance. Over time i have completely reviewed and changed my mind on what 'depression' is and i've thrown much of what i learned of modern psychology out the window.

Yeah me too

Psychiatry and medication are used in the west to chemically cosh the population and keep them docile and unquestioning. they are a modern form of chains

I agree, but i think that it is very complicated and not that straight foward

It really is that straight forward. The government and the corporations are part of the same machine run through groups like the council on foreign relations

Yes, that is exactly what it means

Money, power... i think it comes down to fear and deep insecurities
It certainly did. And they also sold formula that they knew was contaminated to African mothers at that time they were doing their dangerous marketing campaign that defied all we know about biology and nutrition.

Its all about manipulating consciousness....the public consciousness

To anyone- on the web- that doesnt simply think im crazy- or even if you do- please think twice before you buy products from companies like Nestle and other multinational corporations. You dont have to give these people your money. Why not buy local and support someone in your community? Or buy fair trade? Every time you spend a cent of money you are using your power. Do not give these people power if you disagree with their actions.

I do already

People are only really going to exercise that kind of consumer power once they really understand the magnitude of the conspiracy. its one thing to know some of this stuff but its only when people REALLY understand that they develop the will to take action

 

[Quiet]

What i was referring to was the massive movements of people in recent decades as a result of the perception that the streets in the west are lined with gold

This is in part due to pop media, but a lot of it is also cultural ignorance and wishful thinking. Much the same way as 'westerners' idolise and demonise cultures that are foreign to them.

Yeah china has its population on lock down but i have no illusions that the western governments aren't trying to do exactly the same....things are changing here and not for the better

Some things are not changing for the better, but other things are. People as a whole are becoming more aware and conscious of their world. There are a lot of free thinkers out there. As evidenced by all the information you and i currently have access to and the information we have both used to come to an awareness of the greenroom back stage politics going on the world. There are a lot of people aware of this and a lot of people that value freedom. There are many things that will never be able to be taken away from the people as long as we understand that we have the power and we arent just helpless puppets.

I also think that there is everything to fight for. This can only be done by an informed and knoweldgable citezanry (as eisenhower put it)

Ageed.

I absolutely agree!

They are being deliberatly kept on the lower stages of consciousness to keep them in a little mind...a little me mindset, where they are totally focussed on their own little empires and are divided and fearful. Alcohol is used to keep people on these lower circuits, here's a link to learys system which equates to the chakras: http://deoxy.org/8circuit.htm, alcohol helps put someone in a level 2 state of consciousness....territorial thinking

I find the 8 stages of conciousness interesting. I looked into it a while back when i was trying to understand myself better and then again more recently when i was trying to understand the chakral system better. I think that it has merit...but i cant help but feel that something is missing or confused about it..i dont know, just doesnt quite seems right. I think the theory needs to be developed further. A few people have elaborated further on it but still doesnt sit quite right. Theres definately something of value in it though. Clearly Leary was ahead of his time in many ways

It really is that straight forward. The government and the corporations are part of the same machine run through groups like the council on foreign relations

I used to agree with this. I still mostly agree with this but now i cant help but see them as all just individuals, dealing with their own shit and interacting in the bizzare reality they have created for themselves. Governments, corporations and other ruling organisations and societies are made up of people. Sure there are systems, cultures and institutions in place, but it still all comes down to the people, the individuals that make up these groups. People just like you and me. Everyone has their own agenda and motivations, and these are subject to change. I think its complicated. Simplifying it doesnt do the situation enough justice

Its all about manipulating consciousness....the public consciousness

But why? What do these people, these men and women really want? Why do they want to manipulate and manage perceptions and monopolise the public matrix? What are they trying to achieve? What is their purpose and their motivation?

I do already

People are only really going to exercise that kind of consumer power once they really understand the magnitude of the conspiracy. its one thing to know some of this stuff but its only when people REALLY understand that they develop the will to take action[

Thats awesome! But i wasnt directing that statement/plea to you. I was just trying to make a blatant plug against buying that shit. I agree with you that people Really need to understand before they are willing to take action but sometimes the solutions seems so frustratingly obvious and simple that i cant get my head around it. People are ready to be hateful towars murderers, yet they dont want to stop giving money to murderers and putting/wearing their poison on their bodies. That certainly is a testament to the power of branding and corporate brainwashing.

 

[muir]

This is in part due to pop media, but a lot of it is also cultural ignorance and wishful thinking. Much the same way as 'westerners' idolise and demonise cultures that are foreign to them.

It is also the fact that their countries have already been negatively affected in the past by imperialism or in more recent times by neo-imperialism and neoliberalism

Where there is ignorance we should ask why? I believe the ignorance is largely engineered; for example by the kind of TV programmes that i mentioned earlier that have very little grounding in reality. I've watched programmes in other countries that are clearly a copy of friends and its cringeworthy watching adults behaving that way....i don't watch friends in this country anymore either, but there's something about watching people that you haven't been conditioned into watching doing something that you are familiar with to really help make certain things conscious....i guess its the same method as satire except its serious!

Some things are not changing for the better, but other things are. People as a whole are becoming more aware and conscious of their world. There are a lot of free thinkers out there. As evidenced by all the information you and i currently have access to and the information we have both used to come to an awareness of the greenroom back stage politics going on the world. There are a lot of people aware of this and a lot of people that value freedom. There are many things that will never be able to be taken away from the people as long as we understand that we have the power and we arent just helpless puppets.

Yeah awareness needs to grow still though and there needs to be greater organisation and coordination amongst those that are conscious of all this

Ageed.

Cool!

I find the 8 stages of conciousness interesting. I looked into it a while back when i was trying to understand myself better and then again more recently when i was trying to understand the chakral system better. I think that it has merit...but i cant help but feel that something is missing or confused about it..i dont know, just doesnt quite seems right. I think the theory needs to be developed further. A few people have elaborated further on it but still doesnt sit quite right. Theres definately something of value in it though. Clearly Leary was ahead of his time in many ways

I'd go with your instincts about it

I like a lot of what Leary was saying but i'm also a little suspicious of his links to the CIA

I used to agree with this. I still mostly agree with this but now i cant help but see them as all just individuals, dealing with their own shit and interacting in the bizzare reality they have created for themselves. Governments, corporations and other ruling organisations and societies are made up of people. Sure there are systems, cultures and institutions in place, but it still all comes down to the people, the individuals that make up these groups. People just like you and me. Everyone has their own agenda and motivations, and these are subject to change. I think its complicated. Simplifying it doesnt do the situation enough justice

Yes we are all individuals but there is enough truth in certain generalisations to make them worth talking about for example personality types or psychopathy

We can also talk about ideologies and of cultural conditioning. There is only so much you can do to try and reach out to a dangerous person before you have to start looking out for the safety of yourself and those around you.

The people at the top who have also been brainwashed in their own ways are dangerous to the rest of us

But why? What do these people, these men and women really want? Why do they want to manipulate and manage perceptions and monopolise the public matrix? What are they trying to achieve? What is their purpose and their motivation?

That really is the million dollar question isn't it? I'll present some ideas in my next post, but i've got to make dinner first!

Thats awesome! But i wasnt directing that statement/plea to you. I was just trying to make a blatant plug against buying that shit. I agree with you that people Really need to understand before they are willing to take action but sometimes the solutions seems so frustratingly obvious and simple that i cant get my head around it. People are ready to be hateful towars murderers, yet they dont want to stop giving money to murderers and putting/wearing their poison on their bodies. That certainly is a testament to the power of branding and corporate brainwashing.

I think there are a number of factors that are preventing people from being fully conscious and truely understanding....it is frustrating

 

[barbad0s]

South Asians have as much of a fixation with dairy, if not more (check out kulfi ice cream, lassis, milky desserts, paneer cheese).

The variation in fixation on dairy is likely due to lactose intolerance being the norm in most of the world.. We re supposed to stop being able to break down milk after weaning. But in parts of the world where they've domesticated cows for milk traditionally, people who could enjoy milk presumably had a lot more children

http://milk.procon.org/view.resource.php?resourceID=000661

I love milk.

Cool fact: About 44% of lactose intolerant women regain the ability to digest lactose during pregnancy.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lactose_intolerance

... It's traditionally only a miniscule part of diet in the vast, vast majority of groups in Asia as opposed to being a prescribed staple food group in many European areas. Many milky food items in SE Asia were developed as a result of European contact/influence btw.

The only large group I can think of that traditionally eats dairy regularly is India, but it's not in nearly as many food items as it is in Western food.