[INFJ] Easily offended

[ZcM4xzkjgzCjytBc]

Really? Joking around is bad behavior? Did you just say that?

R U JOKING?

 

[John K]

Nothing exists

LOL if it does then so does

Spoiler

But @lostinthisworld if I tried a little bit, I would be extremely offended by people who are easily offended - so I'd end up being offended by myself .....

As an old timer, it seems to me that people who are too easily offended will be first against the wall when the revolution comes - to quote The Hitch-hikers Guide to the Galaxy

On the other hand, people who use humour as a way of armour-plating and sanitising real insults directed harmfully at vulnerable folks make me sick. This isn't me being offended by them but judging them against my values and finding them wanting.

 

[acd]

Maybe this is silly but I'd feel like those who are offended "easily" should be heard. I'd not be OK with them being first against the wall. Ideally, we can laugh off jokes at our expense but not everyone is at that point in their life yet. I don't think suggesting they just suck it up and learn to take a joke (as someone earlier in the thread suggested) really helps them. People are entitled to their own feelings and if we offend someone it's because we overstepped a boundary. Why not just apologize and take a mental note with that individual? If it's something that happens often that it seems like a societal problem, maybe it's time for some introspection on why one keeps happening to offend others.

But in this conversation, I'm thinking of people who have been historically oppressed and even presently trying to be accepted in society. And I think a lot of times people try to use jokes to cram people back into place when they step out of line. To humiliate and shame.

Since it's not OK to be specific in this thread in which we are complaining about people who are offended by specific things which we shall not name.

I don't see people easily offended in my everyday life. I don't really even see it so much online but that may be because I'm not very active on many sites.

I think it is silly to be out there making racist, sexist, ableist, homophobic, transphobic etc. etc. jokes in the workplace and then complaining about one's reputation and career being at risk because no one can take a joke these days. Is that not what this thread is about? I don't think it's just me wondering that based on some responses.

 

[John K]

Maybe this is silly but I'd feel like those who are offended "easily" should be heard. I'd not be OK with them being first against the wall. Ideally, we can laugh off jokes at our expense but not everyone is at that point in their life yet. I don't think suggesting they just suck it up and learn to take a joke really helps them. People are entitled to their own feelings and if we offend someone it's because we overstepped a boundary. Why not just apologize and take a mental note with that individual? If it's something that happens often that it seems like a societal problem, maybe it's time for some introspection on why one keeps happening to offend others.

But in this conversation, I'm thinking of people who have been historically oppressed and even presently trying to be accepted in society. And I think a lot of times people try to use humor to cram people back into place when they step out of line. To humiliate and shame.

Since it's not OK to be specific in this thread in which we are complaining about people who are offended by specific things which we shall not name.

I don't see people easily offended in my everyday life. I don't really even see it so much online but that may be because I'm not very active on many sites.

I think it is silly to be out there making racist, sexist, ableist, homophobic, transphobic etc. etc. jokes in the workplace and then crying about one's reputation being at risk because no one can take a joke these days. Is that not what this thread is about? I don't think it's just me wondering that based on some responses.

I'm in pretty broad agreement with you acd, and my post was not entirely serious, apart from the last bit. I was really playing about with the paradox of nothing existing and the silliness of what happens when we become offended by other people being offended.

Seriously, I think it's all a matter of balance, and I'm very much against the kind of humour that's really a harmful attack against individuals or groups of people who are expected to just laugh it off. On the other hand, humour can be used to prick the bubble of over-inflated or misguided self-importance - for instance when it's directed against archetypal politicians and has been since the world began, so it's not a clear cut situation. Where I think that people who are offended easily can be as damaging as misdirected humour is when it's targetted at viewpoints that people don't like and triggers campaigns of offendedness against them. In my country for example, the trans-gender community are waging a battle against key aspects of women's rights as they see them, and trying to deny people on the opposing side a public forum using this tactic. Whatever the rights and wrongs of the case on each side, it's damaged terribly by plastering it in emotional offendedness that denies a proper discussion of a very complex set of issues.

 

[Deleted member 16771]

In my country for example, the trans-gender community are waging a battle against key aspects of women's rights as they see them, and trying to deny people on the opposing side a public forum using this tactic.

What are you referring to, John?

I remember an incident a few years back. I was involved with a domestic violence charity for women for a few years (before the local council cut our funding and we had to roll it up), and one event we put on for victims had to be cancelled after an uproar from the trans community.

The event was very specifically 'women only', for those who had developed a fear of 'men'. Some transwomen (who were not themselves victims of domestic violence) demanded entry. The victims expressed discomfort at this and ultimately no solution could be found - the victims were still triggered by the transwomen, and of course this meant that the existential identity of the transwomen was invalidated in turn.

No-one had any issue with trans rights, but there was an insoluble difference of 'feeling'.

I don't know if we ought to say that the 'offense' caused to one group in this case generated the controversy, but it was certainly a bizarre collision of priorities and values.

 

[acd]

I'm in pretty broad agreement with you acd, and my post was not entirely serious, apart from the last bit. I was really playing about with the paradox of nothing existing and the silliness of what happens when we become offended by other people being offended.

Seriously, I think it's all a matter of balance, and I'm very much against the kind of humour that's really a harmful attack against individuals or groups of people who are expected to just laugh it off. On the other hand, humour can be used to prick the bubble of over-inflated or misguided self-importance - for instance when it's directed against archetypal politicians and has been since the world began, so it's not a clear cut situation. Where I think that people who are offended easily can be as damaging as misdirected humour is when it's targetted at viewpoints that people don't like and triggers campaigns of offendedness against them. In my country for example, the trans-gender community are waging a battle against key aspects of women's rights as they see them, and trying to deny people on the opposing side a public forum using this tactic. Whatever the rights and wrongs of the case on each side, it's damaged terribly by plastering it in emotional offendedness that denies a proper discussion of a very complex set of issues.

I had originally quoted you but as I went on, wasn't addressing you because I know you and I pretty much agree on this and I don't think you are into those sorts of jokes at anyone's expense.

 

[John K]

What are you referring to, John?

I remember an incident a few years back. I was involved with a domestic violence charity for women for a few years (before the local council cut our funding and we had to roll it up), and one event we put on for victims had to be cancelled after an uproar from the trans community.

The event was very specifically 'women only', for those who had developed a fear of 'men'. Some transwomen (who were not themselves victims of domestic violence) demanded entry. The victims expressed discomfort at this and ultimately no solution could be found - the victims were still triggered by the transwomen, and of course this meant that the existential identity of the transwomen was invalidated in turn.

No-one had any issue with trans rights, but there was an insoluble difference of 'feeling'.

I don't know if we ought to say that the 'offense' caused to one group in this case generated the controversy, but it was certainly a bizarre collision of priorities and values.

It’s the way recently it seems to have become a secular sin for women to express these sort of concerns publicly. There is a lot of offence expressed in the media when some women do try and champion the rights of women, challenge the trans-rights perspective and wish to discuss the important issue about what exactly is a woman - to the extent they are denied a platform in some cases to express their views and are even publicly vilified. This seems to frighten others off expressing their views at all.

Like I said, I’m not taking sides on this particular issue here - it’s how the public discussion is shut down by the way offence is generated against the opposing female viewpoint that is what I’m picking up on.

 

[John K]

I had originally quoted you but as I went on, wasn't addressing you because I know you and I pretty much agree on this and I don't think you are into those sorts of jokes at anyone's expense.

Sure thing - I did read it like that . But thinking about the topic I decided to expand on it and see where it took me, building on your comment.

 

[Deleted member 16771]

It’s the way recently it seems to have become a secular sin for women to express these sort of concerns publicly. There is a lot of offence expressed in the media when some women do try and champion the rights of women, challenge the trans-rights perspective and wish to discuss the important issue about what exactly is a woman - to the extent they are denied a platform in some cases to express their views and are even publicly vilified. This seems to frighten others off expressing their views at all.

Like I said, I’m not taking sides on this particular issue here - it’s how the public discussion is shut down by the way offence is generated against the opposing female viewpoint that is what I’m picking up on.

Ah, yes.


Ultimately I think it's probably easier to regard 'offense' as an essentially political gesture. Expressing offense involves the deployment of a certain kind of compulsive power; of legitimate censure (and conversely, so does the denial of the right to be offended). To be offended is to say 'my values have compulsive power over you', or alternatively 'I am not compelled by your values'.

It's a very strange thing.

 

[John K]

Ah, yes.


Ultimately I think it's probably easier to regard 'offense' as an essentially political gesture. Expressing offense involves the deployment of a certain kind of compulsive power; of legitimate censure (and conversely, so does the denial of the right to be offended). To be offended is to say 'my values have compulsive power over you', or alternatively 'I am not compelled by your values'.

It's a very strange thing.

Yes! This is at the heart of it and I was thinking the same thing. It’s becoming an alternative to rational discussion as a way of winning political disputes. What’s worrying is that it’s a characteristic behaviour of totalitarian societies. Not that it necessarily leads to them, but it does prepare the soil nicely for such regimes.

 

[dZpADTLrPmX4c]

Ideally, we can laugh off jokes at our expense but not everyone is at that point in their life yet. I don't think suggesting they just suck it up and learn to take a joke (as someone earlier in the thread suggested) really helps them.

This is a very salient point to me.
My experiences imply to me that many people who react badly about it have had their feelings invalidated much of their early life. Reinforcing that isn't going to help things; people tend to dig their heels in.
Acknowledging them & working with them through those things feels like the kindest and most constructive approach to me. I understand how this could be frustrating to handle, if we're ourselves not-so-inclinded to offense. It's not always practical, for sure.

Also @acd I love how you approached this, and your post as a whole.

Whatever the rights and wrongs of the case on each side, it's damaged terribly by plastering it in emotional offendedness that denies a proper discussion of a very complex set of issues.

Approaching situations from a place of hurt rarely leads to conciliation & healing, I think.



Something I'm curious about is, how many ways does this cut?
For example. History tells of many callous murderers and war criminals who, when finally brought to justice, cried out in offense. I'm not suggesting anybody here stands for them; my example is hyperbole.
It's more about, "at what point does objective morality become subjective morality?"

 

[Infjente]

Does anyone else here see major concern for how easily offended a lot of people are nowadays? Resilience and grit are being lost as is open discourse. As someone who was bullied as a kid, I have seen the pendulum swing all the way from one end to the other. I know social media has stoked the fire for sure. Instead of dismissing, as we probably should, some of our kids complaints because maybe they were exaggerated, a lot of people validate ALL of their kids problems without proper evaluation thereby leading their kids to believe that every little complaint they have is valid. It’s done with good intentions sure, but very short sighted. I see all of this as a huge problem because the easily offended are taking offense in situations where none should have been taken. Creating problems where none existed in the first place. How do we steer society back in the right direction (settle in the middle)? Will our culture naturally find the middle? I sure hope so.

Yes! I'm second hand bothered by this crazy disharmony every single day. And when I'm directly affected by it, It feels like I'm about to explode. It's to the point where I fantasize about either moving to the middle of Siberia and live out my days away from it all, or go full on rebel until I'm either in jail or shot dead.

 

[Krypton]

As someone who's easily offended (well, maybe, some things don't offend me at all and other things will literally ruin my day if I hear them), I'd like to know why I am because it sucks for me personally independently of whose fault it is that I got offended. I also enjoy offensive humor like probably everyone does so figuring out where the line is, is also good. It's hard because what offends kind of depends on what we take pride in within ourselves.

I think taking offense is a healthy reflex to have sometimes, though. Because oftentimes the alternative is accepting whatever criticism, or joke with a barb of criticism to it, as at the very least plausible sometimes. At least for me. You need a thing you can do to push out the bad thoughts, and internal rational dismissal doesn't always do it for me because I then run the counter-counter argument in my head also. Maybe I need to recognize that I'm the exception more.

I guess I'd place the line for when someone is taking something too seriously somewhere based on "is the statement the person is getting offended by actually saying that" and "is it that bad a thing to be/do x"? But of course everyone claims they're Not Saying That, and earlier statement about it depending on what you care about.

 

[Anomaly]

I'm reminded of a guy I used to work with a few years ago who made a sexist joke, which didn't go over well with an entire building full of women (unfortunately, I cannot recall the exact phrasing of the joke but I remember feeling disgusted by it). I shrugged it off as his own choice to be ignorant, but a few decided that he deserved to be fired, his certificates revoked, and a permanent file in his record. It was led by one girl who turned out to have been rejected by him previously in the year, when she made an advance asking if he'd date her (I only found this out after the fact, making her actions all the more reprehensible, in my opinion). He came in the following day after being confronted by those few, with a handwritten letter of apology, which he read openly to the entire staff admitting how wrong he was in telling a tactless joke. However, some could not move past it. The previously mentioned woman went to every person, and tried to convince them that he deserved to be fired for the joke he made. I was the only one who asked her to stop and think about what she was doing. I asked her to think objectively, and think about how this would follow him for the rest of his life because of her actions. She said she didn't care. He ended up getting fired, and a note added to his certification for future employers.

I suppose my question is, when is a mistake so ignoble that it cannot be absolved? Where is the line? Should someone's actions be labeled onto them for the rest of their lives, even after they own up to them? Did he deserve to be fired, and have a paper trail attached to him for the rest of his life due to a disgusting joke he made hoping to get a laugh? Why is it okay for some offensive things to get a pass, and others not to get a pass? Are we this critical of ourselves, as we are of others? Do we hold ourselves to the same scrutinizing lens?

 

[just me]

I'm reminded of a guy I used to work with a few years ago who made a sexist joke, which didn't go over well with an entire building full of women (unfortunately, I cannot recall the exact phrasing of the joke but I remember feeling disgusted by it). I shrugged it off as his own choice to be ignorant, but a few decided that he deserved to be fired, his certificates revoked, and a permanent file in his record. It was led by one girl who turned out to have been rejected by him previously in the year, when she made an advance asking if he'd date her (I only found this out after the fact, making her actions all the more reprehensible, in my opinion). He came in the following day after being confronted by those few, with a handwritten letter of apology, which he read openly to the entire staff admitting how wrong he was in telling a tactless joke. However, some could not move past it. The previously mentioned woman went to every person, and tried to convince them that he deserved to be fired for the joke he made. I was the only one who asked her to stop and think about what she was doing. I asked her to think objectively, and think about how this would follow him for the rest of his life because of her actions. She said she didn't care. He ended up getting fired, and a note added to his certification for future employers.

I suppose my question is, when is a mistake so ignoble that it cannot be absolved? Where is the line? Should someone's actions be labeled onto them for the rest of their lives, even after they own up to them? Did he deserve to be fired, and have a paper trail attached to him for the rest of his life due to a disgusting joke he made hoping to get a laugh? Why is it okay for some offensive things to get a pass, and others not to get a pass? Are we this critical of ourselves, as we are of others? Do we hold ourselves to the same scrutinizing lens?

I think you made a statement rather than ask a question. I feel we should hold ourselves to the same standards as we judge others. Judge not, lest ye also be judged.

In corporate, military, and many other places they must have strong rules. Watching NCIS, Blue Bloods, CSI and the likes; it does give yield to those who should be stopped at an early age from what they are doing. She did not care? Think she had a chip on her shoulder. Some mistakes may be absolved, leading to other worse scenarios. Not everyone knows when to keep their mouth shut.

 

[Anomaly]

I think you made a statement rather than ask a question. I feel we should hold ourselves to the same standards as we judge others. Judge not, lest ye also be judged.

In corporate, military, and many other places they must have strong rules. Watching NCIS, Blue Bloods, CSI and the likes; it does give yield to those who should be stopped at an early age from what they are doing. She did not care? Think she had a chip on her shoulder. Some mistakes may be absolved, leading to other worse scenarios. Not everyone knows when to keep their mouth shut.

Of course, I don't think it can be so black and white as we want it to be, is all I'm alluding to. It's subjective, and some (as many have admitted in this thread) are more sensitive to offense than others. They have a right to their feelings. I just don't think conclusive judgment can be cast so easily in the cases where the circumstances are contingent on people's feelings as opposed to the objective reality of a situation (it's the same argument of folly vs malice-- malice being easier to discern and therefore judge). Thus, necessitating far more knowledge than most of us have when we attempt such judgments based on feeling alone.

 

[Infjente]

There's a house with a "F*ck Your Feelings And F*ck [elected member of office]" flag that we drive by everyday on the way to taking our son to school. Our son can't read yet but that will be an interesting conversation to have once he learns lol.

I was thinking back maybe 15 years ago you'd never see something like that displayed in someone's yard. I see them all the time out here though. Call me a fuddy duddy but back then it seemed like regardless of how you felt about a certain politician, you had enough respect for your neighbors and any kids around not to display something like that. It's not the worst thing someone could do but it does make me wonder what the next step is. Because while it's just a yard flag, it's a pretty hostile statement to anyone disagreeing with you. It's almost like testing the waters to see what can get by. People mostly seem to ignore it if they don't already agree. Though in one local town the neighbors wanted it taken down. There is a vulgarity code in that town which was enforceable with fines. But it became a first amendment issue. No one is arresting you for using profanity against the government but there are people who live there who don't want to be subjected to it day in and day out. Who find it offensive. Are the people who complained about that flag being too easily offended? And why is their neighbor being so easily offensive?

People need a good amount of freedom of speech to be healthy and stay sane/balanced, I think. It's just a recipe for disaster to force people to act and speak in ways that doesn't make sense to them. It's not sustainable, it creates anxiety and anger that has nowhere safe to land. People must have the right to be jerks, it's just too many of us that are genuine jerks to forbid jerk behavior. As I see it, we can choose between allowing moderate jerk behavior to exist and learn to deal with it as individuals, or we can sanction (either by law or social punishment) jerk behavior and essentially allow the consequences of built up anxiety and anger to manifest in occasional and unpredictable explosions of jerkness. Forbid it all together and it's just a matter of time before literal explosions starts to happen.

 

[acd]

People need a good amount of freedom of speech to be healthy and stay sane/balanced, I think. It's just a recipe for disaster to force people to act and speak in ways that doesn't make sense to them. It's not sustainable, it creates anxiety and anger that has nowhere safe to land. People must have the right to be jerks, it's just too many of us that are genuine jerks to forbid jerk behavior. As I see it, we can choose between allowing moderate jerk behavior to exist and learn to deal with it as individuals, or we can sanction (either by law or social punishment) jerk behavior and essentially allow the consequences of built up anxiety and anger to manifest in occasional and unpredictable explosions of jerkness. Forbid it all together and it's just a matter of time before literal explosions starts to happen.

I think the internet has a lot to do with it. It was mentioned earlier in the thread that it's much easier to treat people badly online than in person. I think the flag thing is just a sign of that bleeding into in-person interactions. Maybe the person with the flag wouldn't walk up to their neighbor and actually voice that opinion or tell someone in the grocery store or on their job they suspect of having certain opinions "F*ck your feelings" (at least for right now but we may be edging closer to something) but it kind of seems like an irl post right outside your house. Kind of interesting how the behavior is something we're supposed to tolerate though the person acting out in that way shows no tolerance for the differing opinions of others. Maybe it's a paradox of tolerance sort of thing.

I kind of wish we could just blow up the internet. I realize the irony of making that statement on the internet lol.

 

[dZpADTLrPmX4c]

People need a good amount of freedom of speech to be healthy and stay sane/balanced, I think. It's just a recipe for disaster to force people to act and speak in ways that doesn't make sense to them. It's not sustainable, it creates anxiety and anger that has nowhere safe to land. People must have the right to be jerks, it's just too many of us that are genuine jerks to forbid jerk behavior. As I see it, we can choose between allowing moderate jerk behavior to exist and learn to deal with it as individuals, or we can sanction (either by law or social punishment) jerk behavior and essentially allow the consequences of built up anxiety and anger to manifest in occasional and unpredictable explosions of jerkness. Forbid it all together and it's just a matter of time before literal explosions starts to happen.

I love how you worded this. So down to earth & relatable. Accessible.
[off-topic but sharing positive thoughts rarely hurts]

 

[David54]

How about if we just stop being offensive..why is that so difficult. Be responsible for what you say and do. Stop blaming victims and accept consequences.
I guess I just dont get why this is hard