Emotional Intimacy (with non-partner friends)

[worthy]

I'm back with one of those dense multi-quote responses and abundant gratitude for all those who have contributed to this thread. This wasn't intended to be a post about my friends' marriage. The reason I included their MBTI types was to pose an illustration that one (an NF) needs something that the other (an SF) doesn't need or understand, and I'm seeing that his unconscious boundaries around that are likely different than hers.

I agree that in a healthy relationship, if one partner's need is in conflict with another partner's need, they should come to an agreement about it, and if they can't do that, they might best reconsider the relationship. Note: I feel strongly that abuse is not something anyone is obligated to "come to an agreement" about.

How that all plays out for my friends is none of my business. One of my boundaries is to stay as neutral as possible and not give advice to one partner that I would not give to the other. If I started to veer in that direction, I'd be pulling back to reassess and clarify my boundaries, maybe walking away. I feel comfortable on the outside of friends' marriages, but I'm not interested in invading their inner sanctum. So while I find your suggestions interesting from a theoretical perspective, "what they should do" is over my boundary line.

How this might play out in conversation with one partner or the other is reflective listening, turning their questions back on them, validating their right to have their needs respected by a partner, affirming that they are seen and heard, encouraging them to trust their instincts, asking open-ended questions to help them verbalize their thoughts so they can hear themselves say them, helping them sort their thoughts without telling them what to do. Unless the situation is emotionally or physically unsafe for them, in which case, heck yeah, I would encourage either of them to leave the relationship.

I do expect to negotiate shared boundaries within my own friendships, and I expect married friends to represent their marital boundaries honestly and accurately in those negotiations. Sometimes they don't, and that would be a red flag when I found out. It's not my job to make them do the right thing, but it IS my job to have the clear expectation that they will and to disengage if they don't. But I'm pretty deliberate about my close friendships.

I know a few people with T mates that cannot get their needs met solely through their mate. They are also careful not to have only one friendship of this nature. Laser focus on only one deep friendship is fraught with co-dependency and is definitely riding the emotional affair line, in my opinion.

Yes, this is a great point, and in my opinion, a good strategy to avoid being inappropriately attached to one person. Spreading it out over a few friends makes sense.

I mean, it's simply very difficult to have a large number of deep emotional relationships.

I am not sure what you are thinking, Ren, but I am not talking about a large number. I have 2-3 close friendships with men and 1-2 with women right now (the imprecise count reflects that some are intermittently active). So maybe I have ~3 active deep friendships at a time, and we are maybe in contact a couple of times a month or once a week or whatever. I don't find that difficult.

I have found that if you form a relationship like this with someone that is single, and they find someone to partner with, in many cases the person they find will satisfy their emotional needs. I tend to let the relationship die a natural death and do not actively pursue it UNLESS they pursue it and also can convince me that I am not a threat to the other party.

It's probably true that it's easiest to be friends with single people, regardless of how deep and meaningful the connection. Generally speaking, some friendships will stay intact when one of the individuals has a change in commitment status, but some will not. For this and other reasons, I think it's wise to live in expectation of change and evolution in all our relationships.

I agree with both of you. Needs and relationships both evolve and shift and change. And yes, relationships have a natural trajectory, especially if they are not being fed.

I won't comment on how common or rare what you're looking for is except to say that I see you and hear that you experience it as rare.

Thank you for this. It totally surprised me in a good way.

Can I also point out that it could also be a situation where one spouse has an insecure attachment style because of trauma and maybe their reaction to a situation is magnified? Like meaning that maybe what triggers insecurity in them is at a much lower threshold and so they might perceive a threat that isn't there.

I have an insecure attachment style because of childhood trauma, so I'm sure I would feel very insecure if my partner started spending a lot of time with an opposite sex friend and they seemed to have a special emotional connection. It would be up to us to work through that issue as a couple, and if ultimately it threatened the long term partnership that person would have to decide which was more important. On the other hand, perhaps it would work out with lots of talking about it and figuring out what might help me feel less insecure.

I understand this. To take my cue from @Wildfire, I see and hear you. I have also lived a version of this, and my experience validates it.

I think it brings up the obligation of compassion. If it's clear that there is no threat, and someone is feeling triggered by an imaginary threat, to what lengths must the people close to them go to try to not trip their trigger? This could get into a conversation about whether an imaginary threat being real in the mind of the perceiver obligates the people around them to validate its existence. And if validating its existence decreases that person's stress and pain, but brings MORE stress and pain to someone else, which is the more compassionate path? Whose stress and pain becomes the priority, and whose becomes the price?

From my POV, it is platonic. Friends of the spouse's gender can help people talk through conflicts in relationships and act as sounding boards before they approach their spouses. The problem arrives when people can't open up with their spouses in the same way they can be open with others. I've saved a few men from walking out on their wives by being there to talk and explaining the female point of view. I always advocate for the woman, even if I'm better friends with the man. My agenda is to help their marriage and their bond.

Yes, totally. I always advocate for the friend's primary relationship, except where there is abuse.

@Asa, this reminds me that I wanted to say that some people need to process emotions verbally and have their thoughts reflected back to complete their processing. I don't understand more than the basics of the MBTI function stacks, so I can't explain exactly how this is related, but I recognize that this may be one of those function stack things. Some people need a trusted friend to work things through verbally with to develop a plan in advance for how they will handle a tough conversation, or advocate for themselves, or whatever.

Deep emotional relationships are not about sex, they are about soul. Connection, real connection, the kind of, I've known you for a thousand lifetimes connections.

YES!!!!!!!!!!! This. Thank you.

I just mentioned this whole thing to my SO and he said, "By definition, all friendships are platonic no matter what the friend's gender is. Touché.

Exactly. My default is platonic, and I'm not the only one.

 

[worthy]

Find a boyfriend.

I'm assuming no disrespect was meant, but it's not a very nice thing to say. Go catch a jellyfish, yourself.

 

[David54]

Hahaha...

 

[slant]

I understand this. To take my cue from @Wildfire, I see and hear you. I have also lived a version of this, and my experience validates it.

I think it brings up the obligation of compassion. If it's clear that there is no threat, and someone is feeling triggered by an imaginary threat, to what lengths must the people close to them go to try to not trip their trigger? This could get into a conversation about whether an imaginary threat being real in the mind of the perceiver obligates the people around them to validate its existence. And if validating its existence decreases that person's stress and pain, but brings MORE stress and pain to someone else, which is the more compassionate path? Whose stress and pain becomes the priority, and whose becomes the price?

There isn't a magic formula. It comes down to two people who look at their needs and evaluate it against each other and decide, "what can I do to meet this other person's needs? What am I unwilling or unable to do?"

Not everyone is cut out to be in a relationship with somebody who has experienced severe trauma. Some people can't and that's ok. There is no obligation from anybody everything is purely voluntary. If you are in a long term committed relationship with somebody you are no longer only focusing on your needs. You both have to figure out how to live in harmony together. If one or both people feel that it's not happening then it's not a relationship that can last.

I'm not sure why you're looking at relationships in this cost and sacrifice lens. If you're in a relationship with somebody and you feel like what they need is bringing you more pain than what you can handle then you aren't a good match for them. It's all very much on an individual basis, and many people feel that they get more benefit from a relationship than harm so they stay in it even if they're feeling at the moment like it is difficult or causing pain. The same with anything in life. You make a judgement call. It is what is right for you, and what is right for you is what is right for the other person even if at the moment it causes pain. If there is no mutual benefit in a relationship then it's obviously something that neither will want to be in unless they're forced to like a parent child relationship or physical violence/fear of death. In even what seems like unhealthy relationship dynamic, both people feel they have a benefit from it which is why they keep it going. Until one or both people decide they are no longer benefiting from a relationship enough to keep it going, the relationship will continue. That's just how it works.

You seem to be wanting a hard line or some sort of universally applicable standard to show when a relationship is out of balance, and even if there was one (which there isn't), it doesn't really matter because people will maintain a relationship until they decide they don't want to anymore. So in that sense the line really depends on what the individual is willing to tolerate and what benefit they perceive.

 

[acd]

I'm assuming no disrespect was meant, but it's not a very nice thing to say. Go catch a jellyfish, yourself.

Not to be disrespectful no. But I think it is the truth though. You are running into these problems because I think it's not a realistic approach to emotionally intimate relationships. The dynamic you seem to need doesn't exist when one party is in a committed relationship without one person ending up neglected in some way. Unless as someone else mentioned, you find a polyamorous couple who are open to intimacy outside of the primary relationship. I'm not saying men and women can't be friends. But I think the way you describe the intimacy you have and require with your male friends is something more than platonic even if it's not intended that way.

Or maybe you'll find the right man you can be intensely intimate friends with without the sex or anything romantic. Good luck. Maybe you both can stay single but maintain that intense emotional and spiritual intimacy in an ultra platonic way. It can be an exclusive friendship, but not a committed relationship. But in so that there's no need to worry about anyone's boyfriend or girlfriend or spouse.

 

[Asa]

So while I find your suggestions interesting from a theoretical perspective, "what they should do" is over my boundary line.

Any suggestion I made about what they should do was hypothetical. I didn't mean to imply you should tell them.

The reason I included their MBTI types was to pose an illustration that one (an NF) needs something that the other (an SF) doesn't need or understand, and I'm seeing that his unconscious boundaries around that are likely different than hers.

Absolutely. ISFPs are also more prone to jealousy than some other stacks and this factors into the situation.

@Asa, this reminds me that I wanted to say that some people need to process emotions verbally and have their thoughts reflected back to complete their processing. I don't understand more than the basics of the MBTI function stacks, so I can't explain exactly how this is related, but I recognize that this may be one of those function stack things. Some people need a trusted friend to work things through verbally with to develop a plan in advance for how they will handle a tough conversation, or advocate for themselves, or whatever.

My understanding was that people who have Fe in the top four functions of their stacks need to talk out their feelings, but this man is an ENFP, which means he has FI in his top four. People with Fe (in the top four) don't always have a firm grasp on their own feelings. They can process other people's feelings easily, but they need to write or talk about their own feelings so they understand them. Perhaps in this case, the ENFP doesn't feel heard and needs someone to validate him. Men have few avenues for expressing their emotional selves.

I'm not sure why you're looking at relationships in this cost and sacrifice lens. If you're in a relationship with somebody and you feel like what they need is bringing you more pain than what you can handle then you aren't a good match for them.

I agree with this. I also see negative feelings like chronic jealousy as something the individual person needs to work on and heal within. It isn't healthy to feel jealous frequently. It comes from being out of balance, insecure, distrust, etc. It's different if you have a specific incident and reason to feel jealous.

Maybe (and I'm speaking about the couple hypothetically again) this isn't about jealousy but boundary-crossing. If the ISFP has boundaries like acd, "Women shouldn't be friends with married men," then her boundaries need to be addressed. It's fair for her to want those boundaries, but it is also fair for the ENFP to want friendships with women. If the ENFP wants different boudaries, they need to work that out.

Personally, if my husband told me I couldn't be friends with an entire group of people, I'd find that controlling and he'd be crossing my boundaries big time. (I am a 5x4 Enneagram, too, so independence is important to me. I believe he is also a 5x4.) We're both good at giving up friendships that cross boundaries and disrespect our marriage. If you know we're married and you still say/do something to cross that line, goodbye.

But I think it is the truth though.

I think you just have a different perspective and life experience and that is your individual truth, but not necessarily everyone's truth.

 

[acd]

Any suggestion I made about what they should do was hypothetical. I didn't mean to imply you should tell them.



Absolutely. ISFPs are also more prone to jealousy than some other stacks and this factors into the situation.



My understanding was that people who have Fe in the top four functions of their stacks need to talk out their feelings, but this man is an ENFP, which means he has FI in his top four. People with Fe (in the top four) don't always have a firm grasp on their own feelings. They can process other people's feelings easily, but they need to write or talk about their own feelings so they understand them. Perhaps in this case, the ENFP doesn't feel heard and needs someone to validate him. Men have few avenues for expressing their emotional selves.




I agree with this. I also see negative feelings like chronic jealousy as something the individual person needs to work on and heal within. It isn't healthy to feel jealous frequently. It comes from being out of balance, insecure, distrust, etc. It's different if you have a specific incident and reason to feel jealous.

Maybe (and I'm speaking about the couple hypothetically again) this isn't about jealousy but boundary-crossing. If the ISFP has boundaries like acd, "Women shouldn't be friends with married men," then her boundaries need to be addressed. It's fair for her to want those boundaries, but it is also fair for the ENFP to want friendships with women. If the ENFP wants different boudaries, they need to work that out.

Personally, if my husband told me I couldn't be friends with an entire group of people, I'd find that controlling and he'd be crossing my boundaries big time. (I am a 5x4 Enneagram, too, so independence is important to me. I believe he is also a 5x4.) We're both good at giving up friendships that cross boundaries and disrespect our marriage. If you know we're married and you still say/do something to cross that line, goodbye.



I think you just have a different perspective and life experience and that is your individual truth, but not necessarily everyone's truth.

By all means, continue on. And continue to wonder why the problem lies with everyone else's spouse then. I didn't say women should not be friends with married men.

I don't like to generalize based on gender, but I'm a woman, and for many years I have found seeking out and benefitting most from emotionally intimate relationships with men. To be clear, I'm talking about deep emotional/intellectual/creative/spiritual intimacy, maybe also shared experiences, but not sexual or romantic intimacy.

That's pretty much what I'm referring to. Having those sorts of requirements for male friendships. And why specifically men? OP talks about themselves benefitting most from these deeply emotional relationships with other men. I just don't think you can be that sort of emotionally and spiritually intimate with someone without it starting to cross into something more... Which has actually been acknowledged by both of you stating you need to maintain boundaries or end friendships when they start to evolve into something more for the other person. I just don't think it's helpful to speculate on the spouses problems because the friendship is contributing to marriage strain. If that seems to be a theme in someone's friendships maybe the issue isn't with the spouses.

I'm remembering @worthy referred to her friends marriage as his "primary relationship." I've never considered my friendship a secondary relationship with my guy friends. It's just a friendship. Both relationships are different. Not at the same level. But as I said earlier, I don't think people can truly devote that much of themselves in any meaningful way to multiple people.

 

[worthy]

Having those sorts of requirements for male friendships.

This is not a requirement in my friendships. Sometimes it happens, and when it does, it's like finding a unicorn in the middle of the hardware store. It's not a box that I'm constantly trying to check. I am looking for it, open to it, happy to find it, but I'm not trying to force it to happen. In my lifetime, it's been rare.

I'm remembering @worthy referred to her friends marriage as his "primary relationship." I've never considered my friendship a secondary relationship with my guy friends. It's just a friendship.

By definition, friendships are relationships, and my default assumption is that a declared relationship with a marriage or life partner should be considered primary by friends. All other adult commitments are secondary to that one, IMO.

But as I said earlier, I don't think people can truly devote that much of themselves in any meaningful way to multiple people.

It sounds like you are a person for whom this is not possible. I respect that. You either get it or you don't, and my experience and expectation is that many people won't.

Why specifically men?

Their energy feels different to me. Maybe it's because of how they are socialized differently, or maybe it's something else. No idea.

 

[Wildfire]

I think it brings up the obligation of compassion. If it's clear that there is no threat, and someone is feeling triggered by an imaginary threat, to what lengths must the people close to them go to try to not trip their trigger? This could get into a conversation about whether an imaginary threat being real in the mind of the perceiver obligates the people around them to validate its existence. And if validating its existence decreases that person's stress and pain, but brings MORE stress and pain to someone else, which is the more compassionate path? Whose stress and pain becomes the priority, and whose becomes the price?

Like you, I experience a very real hunger for deep connection when it’s missing from my life, and I place immeasurable value on feeling truly seen and heard. So please know that I can relate to much of what you shared in your opening post. But it’s also true that I experienced a sense of unease when reading it. I felt invited to have compassion for you, for your ENFP friend and even NFs in general, but I didn’t feel invited to have compassion for the ISFP in your account. In fact the ISFP’s experience felt dehumanized and somewhat veiled behind a conflict you feel you’re having with social norms. Now, with the piece of your post I’ve quoted above, I feel like I understand why. While I really do understand the perceived conflict and the questions posed I just can’t enter with you into the zero sum game framing of it all. Please know that this is coming from someone who has been the intimate friend to an other’s spouse and, at another point, the spouse of a threatened partner, so there is no judgment here.

And before I go I want to bring attention back to something I mentioned before. The fact that an outside relationship has no sexual component and can, by definition, be labeled platonic does not mean that it has no capacity to pose a threat or cause harm to the married couple or other committed relationship. To think otherwise would be unjust to the complexity of what is trying to be conceived by the bond.

 

[Asa]

By all means, continue on. And continue to wonder why the problem lies with everyone else's spouse then. I didn't say women should not be friends with married men.

For the record, I do not wonder about my friends' spouses at all. I'm friends with both people in every marriage no matter which partner I befriended first, but I do have close male friends who are married.
(Edit: The exception is the good people of the forum and that is because their spouses are not on the forum.)

In my wider social circles, men and women are friends. Nobody cares. It doesn't matter anyway because many people are LGBTQX, so making friends only with the same gender doesn't mean anything, which is what my SO meant when he said all friendships are platonic despite gender. It takes the same level of trust in your spouse no matter who they make friends with if half the people are LGBTQX.

What I meant before was that I can't seem to make friends with certain types of women. These are not women whose husbands I am friends with or trying to be friends with.

 

[slant]

Any suggestion I made about what they should do was hypothetical. I didn't mean to imply you should tell them.



Absolutely. ISFPs are also more prone to jealousy than some other stacks and this factors into the situation.



My understanding was that people who have Fe in the top four functions of their stacks need to talk out their feelings, but this man is an ENFP, which means he has FI in his top four. People with Fe (in the top four) don't always have a firm grasp on their own feelings. They can process other people's feelings easily, but they need to write or talk about their own feelings so they understand them. Perhaps in this case, the ENFP doesn't feel heard and needs someone to validate him. Men have few avenues for expressing their emotional selves.




I agree with this. I also see negative feelings like chronic jealousy as something the individual person needs to work on and heal within. It isn't healthy to feel jealous frequently. It comes from being out of balance, insecure, distrust, etc. It's different if you have a specific incident and reason to feel jealous.

Maybe (and I'm speaking about the couple hypothetically again) this isn't about jealousy but boundary-crossing. If the ISFP has boundaries like acd, "Women shouldn't be friends with married men," then her boundaries need to be addressed. It's fair for her to want those boundaries, but it is also fair for the ENFP to want friendships with women. If the ENFP wants different boudaries, they need to work that out.

I feel like what I'm trying to communicate what you/worthy and people with a similar message are speaking past each other. What is bothering me about your guys' opinion is applying *your* preferences to another couple. It just doesn't make sense to me. And it doesn't make sense to me to have universal rules like "jealousy is inherently unhealthy so the other person needs to work on it"... I'm not even trying to say that it's an awesome trait to have but it is a trait and I feel like if you're with somebody you would know if they have jealousy tendencies and you kind of have to take people where they are at. If somebody being at that level is a major problem for you, the solution is not to try to change them. You can't just date people with the mindset of changing them. Yes you can help people grow but for people reacting out of trauma the best way to do that is to provide a safe environment for somebody to feel ok with who they are and then when they are comfortable branch out and question themselves. This doesn't apply to all trauma situations either but my main point is you just can't change people. It's not"wrong" for somebody to experience jealousy. There are some people who that's both their preference and they feel very comfortable with each other. What we are talking about is that preferences aren't lining up and there is conflict. The solution is not for either of them to "change", that has to be voluntary, something they feel like they want to do for the better of the relationship. If they don't feel understood or ready to change then at that point forcing somebody to do something because of a moral judgement, maybe they'll do it, but it won't last and ultimately people are going to be unhappy. So people just need to figure out what they can handle and what they can't. Sometimes being in a relationship teaches you new skills and it's good to be challenged. But if you do it out of "this is a WRONG, UNHEALTHY behavior and you must change!" It feels like you're really judging the person and if somebody struggles with low self esteem that's going to make them retreat. All you can do is say something like "these are my needs and what's important to me. What are your needs? Is there a middle ground we can find?" And if not... Eventually it's just over. A relationship just can't be dependent on one person changing. If you marry an alcoholic, it's pretty unfair to be in that marriage accepting it and then all of the sudden require the person to get sober. I'm not saying you shouldn't get sober as an alcoholic but if you were cool with it before and then now you're not that's more about you changing than the other person and you have to think about if this person is really ready for that change.

So I don't think I'm even really in disagreement with the content of what you guys are saying- I can see why this personality trait is creating problems and why both people are unhappy with it- I guess it is just a trigger for me because when people try to change my behavior when I've expressed what I struggle with, it feels like they didn't want me for me but they want me to be somebody I'm not. It's not that I don't want to improve, I'm going to therapy, I'm doing everything I can, but I'm at where I'm at and when I was a kid I was nitpicked all the time told that the way I was basically was wrong and it's taken a long time to come to a place of self acceptance for me. I accept who I am, flaws and all, I try to work on myself but usually I'll understand my limitations and that it takes time to really learn new skills. You don't always know if you can unlearn behaviors or patterns or how quickly you can do it. I'm not even jealous to this level of this lady. I more just get anxious being separated from my partner and not hearing back from them, I'm usually ok with them spending time with opposite sex friends. I just think traits like jealousy usually come from trauma or the cultural upbringing somebody is from and I'm offering a way to look at it as less of a wrong thing and more of a preference some people have that they might change or they might not change.

 

[David54]

I rather think it is all about the individual people in question. As for me, and I only speak for me...deep connection is real. It doesn't involve anything but that. On a side note, I am not interested in drauma..
Would touch souls..even beyond temporal relationship..that is real for me as well..

 

[aeon]

I mean, it's simply very difficult to have a large number of deep emotional relationships.

I agree, but I’m not so sure this is a question of ability so much as it is one of a very limiting culture.

When I say limiting I mean one that believes being an emotional Bonobo means big willies and wet knickers are an unavoidable next step and consequence.

Cheers,
Ian

 

[April]

I agree, but I’m not so sure this is a question of ability so much as it is one of a very limiting culture.

When I say limiting I mean one that believes being an emotional Bonobo means big willies and wet knickers are an unavoidable next step and consequence.

Cheers,
Ian

You crack me up with your wording sometimes lol <3

I agree with you, however one must be careful because one of the criteria for a demisexual like us is for there to be an emotional connection. So it's halfway there, we just have to be careful to recognize if it starts to become sexual within us (on a serious level, past a harmless thought) or if we start to notice sexual cues from the other person.

For someone like me, sometimes this is hard to decipher. And before I even realize what I am feeling, it's already manifested itself and the other person may have an idea before I even do.

But thats rare, usually I know whats up and will warn the person that I'm a harmless flirt but it's not serious.

Having stable relationships or at least one, and having needs met, I have found, is a key to whether I will be unaware or not of what I need/want out of my relationships.

If needs go unmet for a very long time, it is more likely that my desires will "leak" out without me knowing at first.

But I usually don't go very long at all without needs being met lol. Not physically.

Emotionally/intimately is a different story, but I was talking about strictly sexual desire.

For me as a demisexual, emotional connection can and usually does lead to intimacy. Intimacy can lead to sexual desire. Sexual desire always requires intimacy, but intimacy does not always cause sexual desire.

For sexual desire, I mean the real kind where I actually want to have sex with this person, that's got to involve real connection and real intimacy. And the type and level of intimacy required for me to actually want to have sex with someone is also for me very rare to experience.

There are sometimes thoughts that cross my mind about people, but the thoughts don't really turn me on and even if it did which is *truly* rare for me, I would never follow through.

 

[Asa]

I feel like what I'm trying to communicate what you/worthy and people with a similar message are speaking past each other. What is bothering me about your guys' opinion is applying *your* preferences to another couple. It just doesn't make sense to me.

Worthy’s original post was about how we, NFs, cope with societal expectations and our need for deep friendships. It wasn’t a critique of the couple’s relationship.

She used the ENFP/ISFP relatinoship as an example because he is an NF who needs deep connection and that conflicts with his spouse's desires for the relationship. That NF is struggling to have his needs met and honor his marriage at the same time. How do we, as NFs, deal with these situations?

I shouldn’t need to explain myself or answer to you, but here we go:
I'm not applying my preferences to other couples. In this situation where I don't know the couple we are examining, I can voice my opinions about it without fear of hurting them because they are never going to know. (Unless Worthy tells them and just by knowing the kind of person she is, I believe she won’t.)

I don’t freely give my opinion about other people’s relationships “in real life”. I’m careful about what I say, even when asked for advice. (For example: When my friends break up I don't badmouth the ex.) I have made a few mistakes with giving my opinion and I don’t want to do that again. I also don’t impose my guidelines on other relationships. Every relationship has different rules and I honor that. It’s their choice. When my SO and I are friends with a couple, all four of us want the friendship.

Also, we should try to make this conversation less gendered. I have many LGBTQX friends, so I have many friendships with women who are into women. For the record: More drunken “straight” women have made moves on me than any other category of friends. I could critique why, but that’s a different thread.

"jealousy is inherently unhealthy so the other person needs to work on it"..

Chronic jealousy is an unhealthy trait. That's different from being jealous about a specific incident or behavior.

The solution is not for either of them to "change", that has to be voluntary, something they feel like they want to do for the better of the relationship.

When there is conflict in a relationship, both people have to change so the relationship can be healthy and thrive. How they do that is up to them.

But if you do it out of "this is a WRONG, UNHEALTHY behavior and you must change!" It feels like you're really judging the person and if somebody struggles with low self esteem that's going to make them retreat.

How I speak about hypothetical situations on the forum and how I address real human beings in real situations I face may vary considerably. I'm not apologizing to a hypothetical person for hurting their hypothetical feelings if I say they need to work on themselves. In person, with a friend or partner, I would be mindful of their feelings.

Everyone has unhealthy behaviors. When seeking relationships, we need to be aware of what our unhealthy behaviors are and avoid relationships with the kinds of people who bring out the worst in us. We aren't obligated to work on ourselves to improve unhealthy behaviors, but we'll probably be happier and have better relationships if we do. Everyone deserves love, kindness, and patience, and this includes people who have challenging behaviors, weaknesses, or are “working on themselves”. (This includes you, me, and everyone else because none of us is perfect and we should all work on ourselves.) It also doesn't mean anyone has to put up with those unhealthy behaviors, including committed partners.

If you marry an alcoholic, it's pretty unfair to be in that marriage accepting it and then all of the sudden require the person to get sober. I'm not saying you shouldn't get sober as an alcoholic but if you were cool with it before and then now you're not that's more about you changing than the other person and you have to think about if this person is really ready for that change.

If you are in a relationship with a person who has a substance abuse problem, you may address it at any time. You're also allowed to address abuse at any time, even if you put up with it in the past. You never need to put up with chronic unhealthy behaviors in a relationship. IMO, the goal of a relationship is to build a happy life and help each other grow, become better people, and be happier. Festering in destructive behaviors is none of those things.

Being an enabler isn't cool.

You can't just date people with the mindset of changing them.

That's true. So, know yourself and avoid relationships that bring out the worst in you.
If you're the jealous type, find a more traditional partner who doesn’t keep a diverse group of friends. If you’re the independent type, don’t date people who are controlling.

That said, a lot of people enjoy the dynamics of heated arguments and hot make-up sex. Whatever makes them happy. If arguing and stress don't turn you on, find a partner who isn't into that kink.

And if not... Eventually it's just over.

Long-term relationships involve growth and change. Sometimes it really is one person who needs to change. A few years later, the other person may need to change. You adjust, you communicate, you compromise, and support, and things work out and get better. In my relationship, we've both called each other out. It isn't always "us". Sometimes it is, "You do this and you need to change it".

So I don't think I'm even really in disagreement with the content of what you guys are saying- I can see why this personality trait is creating problems and why both people are unhappy with it- I guess it is just a trigger for me because when people try to change my behavior when I've expressed what I struggle with, it feels like they didn't want me for me but they want me to be somebody I'm not. It's not that I don't want to improve, I'm going to therapy, I'm doing everything I can, but I'm at where I'm at and when I was a kid I was nitpicked all the time told that the way I was basically was wrong and it's taken a long time to come to a place of self acceptance for me. I accept who I am, flaws and all, I try to work on myself but usually I'll understand my limitations and that it takes time to really learn new skills. You don't always know if you can unlearn behaviors or patterns or how quickly you can do it. I'm not even jealous to this level of this lady. I more just get anxious being separated from my partner and not hearing back from them, I'm usually ok with them spending time with opposite sex friends. I just think traits like jealousy usually come from trauma or the cultural upbringing somebody is from and I'm offering a way to look at it as less of a wrong thing and more of a preference some people have that they might change or they might not change.

I think you need big hugs and high fives. As long as I've known you on the forum, you've tried hard to improve who you are. It does take a long time to improve and heal.

Jealousy doesn't have to come from trauma, but maybe yours does. In that case, try to avoid relationships that trigger your weaknesses and trauma responses.


From what you've said here, it sounds like you need to date good communicators. You need him to call, text, or check-in regularly. Definitely avoid men who play communication games – leave you hanging for days and then act like there is nothing wrong with doing that, or who go out all night partying and don't touch base the next day. Maybe you should date people who are really into spending time with their partners and including their partners instead of the types who like to go out on the town without you? That’s just off-the-cuff insight. If it doesn’t resonate, ignore me, but I do think you, and anyone, will be happier if you avoid dating people who bring out the worst in you.

All that said, your partners are allowed to voice how they feel. They don’t need to just put up with behaviors that negatively affect them. The right partner for you will do this in a way that is supportive and helpful. The person you’re in love with should want you to improve.



----------------


So, to get back to what Worthy was asking:

As an NF who thrives of deep connections, I avoid friendships where there is any conflict like this. I'd never have a friendship with a man whose wife disapproved of it. I try to find fulfillment in different ways. I try not to weigh too heavily on any of my friends, anyway. Maybe that is why I'm still on the forum. I want a place to discuss feelings and ideas with people. I have other creative outlets, too.

 

[April]

My understanding was that people who have Fe in the top four functions of their stacks need to talk out their feelings, but this man is an ENFP, which means he has FI in his top four. People with Fe (in the top four) don't always have a firm grasp on their own feelings. They can process other people's feelings easily, but they need to write or talk about their own feelings so they understand them. Perhaps in this case, the ENFP doesn't feel heard and needs someone to validate him. Men have few avenues for expressing their emotional selves.

THIS!!! At least in my experience, having Fe and strongly leaning on it as a 2w1 usually does, means that I very often have to talk out my feelings to understand them. A clear case was when I had my mini-breakdown the night before last and I did not understand what was going on (what the root was and why I felt the deep sadness) until I talked it out with someone I trusted intimately. During the conversation, and talking it out, I eventually figured out the cause, and with the support of my trusted friend, I was able to feel MUCH better in the course of minutes because I was no longer confused. I was able to acknowledge that I did feel a certain way about a certain thing, and that helped me deal with it and now it's over. In situations like this, it is vital that I either have someone I trust, that will not judge me (even if the negative feelings are about them) or at the very least, journal about it. Writing it out sometimes doesn't help though, because there is nobody there to ask the right questions or to bounce ideas and get feedback on what seems to be the case from an outside perspective.

If it's another person, I can usually tell what they are feeling, unless I am in an intense emotive state with hyper feelings (ADHD makes me seem like an extrovert hell bent on talking someone's ass off sometimes LOL) that lead me to usually blab about myself for a bit. But I usually will always come back to them and how they must feel. Even if it takes me a bit after getting my feels out. This is why I need patience in my relationships, and when they don't have it, they usually see me as too self absorbed. Which I am, very! But I do eventually and naturally come back to them and their feelings. With plenty of shame about being self-absorbed, too. I'm learning to accept this about myself, though. Shame isn't good. And I feel it a LOT.

For someone with Fi in their stack it can actually be a bit harder to open up and talk about their feelings even though they know them well. I think you are right, Asa, in that this ENFP seems like (if he needs the emotional connection and intimacy from the OP) then he is not getting his needs met at home. This may not be the case however, because we have to remember that everyone has varying needs/wants and boundaries too, even within the proposed/alleged types they fit into the closest. We are all individuals after all. So it could be that he IS getting his needs met, but that he just also feels comfortable in having the OP as a close friend who isn't his wife that can offer him outside female perspective. Then he can share problems that his wife, even though female, may not understand as an ISFP.

However there is room for trouble here, because if his needs are not being met, and he finds that the OP meets them, he could develop romantic feelings of course. And with Fi in his stack, he would be a little more likely than someone with Fe to hold them in. (Depending on several other things of course, but Fi does tend to hold in things whereas Fe tends to be more on the sharing side, at least in general) That is where the OP needs to be careful, even if she has made her boundaries very clear, the guy could still develop romantic feelings and not tell her. That would still cause problems for the marriage, especially if the jealous ISFP senses it.

Just my two cents! However, I do believe it's definitely possible for a man and woman to have a close and platonic friendship.

 

[April]

I feel like what I'm trying to communicate what you/worthy and people with a similar message are speaking past each other. What is bothering me about your guys' opinion is applying *your* preferences to another couple. It just doesn't make sense to me. And it doesn't make sense to me to have universal rules like "jealousy is inherently unhealthy so the other person needs to work on it"... I'm not even trying to say that it's an awesome trait to have but it is a trait and I feel like if you're with somebody you would know if they have jealousy tendencies and you kind of have to take people where they are at. If somebody being at that level is a major problem for you, the solution is not to try to change them. You can't just date people with the mindset of changing them. Yes you can help people grow but for people reacting out of trauma the best way to do that is to provide a safe environment for somebody to feel ok with who they are and then when they are comfortable branch out and question themselves. This doesn't apply to all trauma situations either but my main point is you just can't change people. It's not"wrong" for somebody to experience jealousy. There are some people who that's both their preference and they feel very comfortable with each other. What we are talking about is that preferences aren't lining up and there is conflict. The solution is not for either of them to "change", that has to be voluntary, something they feel like they want to do for the better of the relationship. If they don't feel understood or ready to change then at that point forcing somebody to do something because of a moral judgement, maybe they'll do it, but it won't last and ultimately people are going to be unhappy. So people just need to figure out what they can handle and what they can't. Sometimes being in a relationship teaches you new skills and it's good to be challenged. But if you do it out of "this is a WRONG, UNHEALTHY behavior and you must change!" It feels like you're really judging the person and if somebody struggles with low self esteem that's going to make them retreat. All you can do is say something like "these are my needs and what's important to me. What are your needs? Is there a middle ground we can find?" And if not... Eventually it's just over. A relationship just can't be dependent on one person changing. If you marry an alcoholic, it's pretty unfair to be in that marriage accepting it and then all of the sudden require the person to get sober. I'm not saying you shouldn't get sober as an alcoholic but if you were cool with it before and then now you're not that's more about you changing than the other person and you have to think about if this person is really ready for that change.

So I don't think I'm even really in disagreement with the content of what you guys are saying- I can see why this personality trait is creating problems and why both people are unhappy with it- I guess it is just a trigger for me because when people try to change my behavior when I've expressed what I struggle with, it feels like they didn't want me for me but they want me to be somebody I'm not. It's not that I don't want to improve, I'm going to therapy, I'm doing everything I can, but I'm at where I'm at and when I was a kid I was nitpicked all the time told that the way I was basically was wrong and it's taken a long time to come to a place of self acceptance for me. I accept who I am, flaws and all, I try to work on myself but usually I'll understand my limitations and that it takes time to really learn new skills. You don't always know if you can unlearn behaviors or patterns or how quickly you can do it. I'm not even jealous to this level of this lady. I more just get anxious being separated from my partner and not hearing back from them, I'm usually ok with them spending time with opposite sex friends. I just think traits like jealousy usually come from trauma or the cultural upbringing somebody is from and I'm offering a way to look at it as less of a wrong thing and more of a preference some people have that they might change or they might not change.

I agree with all of this. I think it's up to the individual couple to determine together what needs to be addressed and compromise on a solution that works best for both of them. I also do not think it's fair to label people who can feel jealous at times as unhealthy even though a significant amount of unnecessary jealousy can be unhealthy. I don't think @Asa or anyone else who mentioned this was trying to label anyone though, and what was said is more in terms of "in general" instead of referring to all people who feel jealousy at any given time. It's different for everyone. A person working on their insecurities can still have insecure feelings of jealousy based on past experiences (trauma) and know they need to work on it, but this needs to be discussed with the partner. That is still healthy, IMO. What truly matters in this situation is healthy communication and patience with the person experiencing trauma based jealousy. With that, everything can be worked out. If it can't, then it's not a good fit. And that is that, in my opinion.

 

[April]

Worthy’s original post was about how we, NFs, cope with societal expectations and our need for deep friendships. It wasn’t a critique of the couple’s relationship.

She used the ENFP/ISFP relatinoship as an example because he is an NF who needs deep connection and that conflicts with his spouse's desires for the relationship. That NF is struggling to have his needs met and honor his marriage at the same time. How do we, as NFs, deal with these situations?

I shouldn’t need to explain myself or answer to you, but here we go:
I'm not applying my preferences to other couples. In this situation where I don't know the couple we are examining, I can voice my opinions about it without fear of hurting them because they are never going to know. (Unless Worthy tells them and just by knowing the kind of person she is, I believe she won’t.)

I don’t freely give my opinion about other people’s relationships “in real life”. I’m careful about what I say, even when asked for advice. (For example: When my friends break up I don't badmouth the ex.) I have made a few mistakes with giving my opinion and I don’t want to do that again. I also don’t impose my guidelines on other relationships. Every relationship has different rules and I honor that. It’s their choice. When my SO and I are friends with a couple, all four of us want the friendship.

Also, we should try to make this conversation less gendered. I have many LGBTQX friends, so I have many friendships with women who are into women. For the record: More drunken “straight” women have made moves on me than any other category of friends. I could critique why, but that’s a different thread.




Chronic jealousy is an unhealthy trait. That's different from being jealous about a specific incident or behavior.




When there is conflict in a relationship, both people have to change so the relationship can be healthy and thrive. How they do that is up to them.




How I speak about hypothetical situations on the forum and how I address real human beings in real situations I face may vary considerably. I'm not apologizing to a hypothetical person for hurting their hypothetical feelings if I say they need to work on themselves. In person, with a friend or partner, I would be mindful of their feelings.

Everyone has unhealthy behaviors. When seeking relationships, we need to be aware of what our unhealthy behaviors are and avoid relationships with the kinds of people who bring out the worst in us. We aren't obligated to work on ourselves to improve unhealthy behaviors, but we'll probably be happier and have better relationships if we do. Everyone deserves love, kindness, and patience, and this includes people who have challenging behaviors, weaknesses, or are “working on themselves”. (This includes you, me, and everyone else because none of us is perfect and we should all work on ourselves.) It also doesn't mean anyone has to put up with those unhealthy behaviors, including committed partners.



If you are in a relationship with a person who has a substance abuse problem, you may address it at any time. You're also allowed to address abuse at any time, even if you put up with it in the past. You never need to put up with chronic unhealthy behaviors in a relationship. IMO, the goal of a relationship is to build a happy life and help each other grow, become better people, and be happier. Festering in destructive behaviors is none of those things.

Being an enabler isn't cool.




That's true. So, know yourself and avoid relationships that bring out the worst in you.
If you're the jealous type, find a more traditional partner who doesn’t keep a diverse group of friends. If you’re the independent type, don’t date people who are controlling.

That said, a lot of people enjoy the dynamics of heated arguments and hot make-up sex. Whatever makes them happy. If arguing and stress don't turn you on, find a partner who isn't into that kink.





Long-term relationships involve growth and change. Sometimes it really is one person who needs to change. A few years later, the other person may need to change. You adjust, you communicate, you compromise, and support, and things work out and get better. In my relationship, we've both called each other out. It isn't always "us". Sometimes it is, "You do this and you need to change it".





I think you need big hugs and high fives. As long as I've known you on the forum, you've tried hard to improve who you are. It does take a long time to improve and heal.

Jealousy doesn't have to come from trauma, but maybe yours does. In that case, try to avoid relationships that trigger your weaknesses and trauma responses.


From what you've said here, it sounds like you need to date good communicators. You need him to call, text, or check-in regularly. Definitely avoid men who play communication games – leave you hanging for days and then act like there is nothing wrong with doing that, or who go out all night partying and don't touch base the next day. Maybe you should date people who are really into spending time with their partners and including their partners instead of the types who like to go out on the town without you? That’s just off-the-cuff insight. If it doesn’t resonate, ignore me, but I do think you, and anyone, will be happier if you avoid dating people who bring out the worst in you.

All that said, your partners are allowed to voice how they feel. They don’t need to just put up with behaviors that negatively affect them. The right partner for you will do this in a way that is supportive and helpful. The person you’re in love with should want you to improve.



----------------


So, to get back to what Worthy was asking:

As an NF who thrives of deep connections, I avoid friendships where there is any conflict like this. I'd never have a friendship with a man whose wife disapproved of it. I try to find fulfillment in different ways. I try not to weigh too heavily on any of my friends, anyway. Maybe that is why I'm still on the forum. I want a place to discuss feelings and ideas with people. I have other creative outlets, too.

Yes to all of this too! I knew you weren't labeling, but sometimes for those of us who have been through trauma and have anxious attachment styles in some relationships, it can feel like judgement when statements are made, because we are insecure about this aspect of our lives. I try not to take things personally though, even when I feel insecure about things. Sometimes I fail, and that is okay. I just get back up and keep trying to fix what needs to be fixed in myself. Sometimes, it actually takes hearing others say it, and sometimes, towards me personally, to even realize I'm doing a certain behavior. I don't know if that is true for us all, but it is for me.

Also, hell yeah @slant needs big hugs and high-fives... she's a true inspiration for self-help and growth as an individual. Very inspiring to me, personally. <3

 

[slant]

Worthy’s original post was about how we, NFs, cope with societal expectations and our need for deep friendships. It wasn’t a critique of the couple’s relationship.

She used the ENFP/ISFP relatinoship as an example because he is an NF who needs deep connection and that conflicts with his spouse's desires for the relationship. That NF is struggling to have his needs met and honor his marriage at the same time. How do we, as NFs, deal with these situations?

I shouldn’t need to explain myself or answer to you, but here we go:
I'm not applying my preferences to other couples. In this situation where I don't know the couple we are examining, I can voice my opinions about it without fear of hurting them because they are never going to know. (Unless Worthy tells them and just by knowing the kind of person she is, I believe she won’t.)

I don’t freely give my opinion about other people’s relationships “in real life”. I’m careful about what I say, even when asked for advice. (For example: When my friends break up I don't badmouth the ex.) I have made a few mistakes with giving my opinion and I don’t want to do that again. I also don’t impose my guidelines on other relationships. Every relationship has different rules and I honor that. It’s their choice. When my SO and I are friends with a couple, all four of us want the friendship.

Also, we should try to make this conversation less gendered. I have many LGBTQX friends, so I have many friendships with women who are into women. For the record: More drunken “straight” women have made moves on me than any other category of friends. I could critique why, but that’s a different thread.




Chronic jealousy is an unhealthy trait. That's different from being jealous about a specific incident or behavior.




When there is conflict in a relationship, both people have to change so the relationship can be healthy and thrive. How they do that is up to them.




How I speak about hypothetical situations on the forum and how I address real human beings in real situations I face may vary considerably. I'm not apologizing to a hypothetical person for hurting their hypothetical feelings if I say they need to work on themselves. In person, with a friend or partner, I would be mindful of their feelings.

Everyone has unhealthy behaviors. When seeking relationships, we need to be aware of what our unhealthy behaviors are and avoid relationships with the kinds of people who bring out the worst in us. We aren't obligated to work on ourselves to improve unhealthy behaviors, but we'll probably be happier and have better relationships if we do. Everyone deserves love, kindness, and patience, and this includes people who have challenging behaviors, weaknesses, or are “working on themselves”. (This includes you, me, and everyone else because none of us is perfect and we should all work on ourselves.) It also doesn't mean anyone has to put up with those unhealthy behaviors, including committed partners.



If you are in a relationship with a person who has a substance abuse problem, you may address it at any time. You're also allowed to address abuse at any time, even if you put up with it in the past. You never need to put up with chronic unhealthy behaviors in a relationship. IMO, the goal of a relationship is to build a happy life and help each other grow, become better people, and be happier. Festering in destructive behaviors is none of those things.

Being an enabler isn't cool.




That's true. So, know yourself and avoid relationships that bring out the worst in you.
If you're the jealous type, find a more traditional partner who doesn’t keep a diverse group of friends. If you’re the independent type, don’t date people who are controlling.

That said, a lot of people enjoy the dynamics of heated arguments and hot make-up sex. Whatever makes them happy. If arguing and stress don't turn you on, find a partner who isn't into that kink.





Long-term relationships involve growth and change. Sometimes it really is one person who needs to change. A few years later, the other person may need to change. You adjust, you communicate, you compromise, and support, and things work out and get better. In my relationship, we've both called each other out. It isn't always "us". Sometimes it is, "You do this and you need to change it".





I think you need big hugs and high fives. As long as I've known you on the forum, you've tried hard to improve who you are. It does take a long time to improve and heal.

Jealousy doesn't have to come from trauma, but maybe yours does. In that case, try to avoid relationships that trigger your weaknesses and trauma responses.


From what you've said here, it sounds like you need to date good communicators. You need him to call, text, or check-in regularly. Definitely avoid men who play communication games – leave you hanging for days and then act like there is nothing wrong with doing that, or who go out all night partying and don't touch base the next day. Maybe you should date people who are really into spending time with their partners and including their partners instead of the types who like to go out on the town without you? That’s just off-the-cuff insight. If it doesn’t resonate, ignore me, but I do think you, and anyone, will be happier if you avoid dating people who bring out the worst in you.

All that said, your partners are allowed to voice how they feel. They don’t need to just put up with behaviors that negatively affect them. The right partner for you will do this in a way that is supportive and helpful. The person you’re in love with should want you to improve.



----------------


So, to get back to what Worthy was asking:

As an NF who thrives of deep connections, I avoid friendships where there is any conflict like this. I'd never have a friendship with a man whose wife disapproved of it. I try to find fulfillment in different ways. I try not to weigh too heavily on any of my friends, anyway. Maybe that is why I'm still on the forum. I want a place to discuss feelings and ideas with people. I have other creative outlets, too.

Thanks for taking the time to explain. I think I'm getting pretty off topic with my clarification and I don't really have anything more to offer to the conversation on this level so I'll tap out instead of risking further derailment. Thanks @Asa and @worthy and @April and everyone else who responded to me and hopefully you will get some relevant discuss, good topic

 

[Asa]

Thanks for taking the time to explain. I think I'm getting pretty off topic with my clarification and I don't really have anything more to offer to the conversation on this level so I'll tap out instead of risking further derailment. Thanks @Asa and @worthy and @April and everyone else who responded to me and hopefully you will get some relevant discuss, good topic

Thanks for the reply, @slant. Please PM me if you do want to talk about it more. I don't want you to feel like you're not heard just because we don't agree on every point.