Emotional Intimacy (with non-partner friends)

Asa said:
Thanks for the reply, @slant. Please PM me if you do want to talk about it more. I don't want you to feel like you're not heard just because we don't agree on every point.
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You're so sweet, Asa. <3 This was a lovely thing to say and offer. This is a true example of healthy communication. My heart just expanded from seeing this very wholesome act. You're a treasure!
 
I relate to the OP quite a bit. Though, finding a connection like that seems to inevitably spur on some form of desire. I either come up against boundaries that I have to carefully consider, or alienation becomes recurrent. If I find myself longing to go deeper and deeper, then I have to ask myself if it is appropriate within the scope of the friendship, or how I'd feel if I were their spouse/partner looking in on the scenario. If I am ever given pause, I question the friend to be certain or I end up pulling away. I have yet to find a friendship which sated the need for more depth, nor one where I could continue diving further without some serious reservation or consequence. It leads to a lot of feelings of frustration and confusion.

I have found only a handful of women that I could connect to even moderately the ways mentioned (two are on this forum). I'm not sure why it is less common with females as opposed to males. I seem to communicate more seamlessly with males, in general, and always have.

This has given me a lot to think on, so I'm not particularly sure what else to contribute. Perhaps, other than saying, I understand.
 
Anomaly said:
I relate to the OP quite a bit. Though, finding a connection like that seems to inevitably spur on some form of desire. I either come up against boundaries that I have to carefully consider, or alienation becomes recurrent. If I find myself longing to go deeper and deeper, then I have to ask myself if it is appropriate within the scope of the friendship, or how I'd feel if I were their spouse/partner looking in on the scenario. If I am ever given pause, I question the friend to be certain or I end up pulling away. I have yet to find a friendship which sated the need for more depth, nor one where I could continue diving further without some serious reservation or consequence. It leads to a lot of feelings of frustration and confusion.

I have found only a handful of women that I could connect to even moderately the ways mentioned (two are on this forum). I'm not sure why it is less common with females as opposed to males. I seem to communicate more seamlessly with males, in general, and always have.

This has given me a lot to think on, so I'm not particularly sure what else to contribute. Perhaps, other than saying, I understand.
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I highly relate too, to the OP and especially to what you have said here. Which I think is why I had so much to say in this thread. :sweatsmile:

I have found women I connect with though. Like you, a few being on this forum. (You @Anomaly are actually one of the ones that I truly connect with, hehe) When I do find it, it is very fulfilling to have a woman to go to. My closest friend in real life is an ENTP and she actually has very masculine energy, so maybe that is why we connect other than having known each other my whole life, lol. My friendships with her two sisters faded, even though they were closer to me in childhood, but her and I remain close to this day, whereas I never talk to the other girls.

But to find an actual feminine woman (cis or trans, I don't care, what I mean is just true feminine energy) that I connect with is a treasure. One who will stay my friend, that is. <3

I think it is probably an unhealthy thing for myself, personally, that I just get along easier with men. Because my daddy issues probably contributed to this need to be emotionally intimate with them. (How I ended up with an ISTP who sucks in that area was probably also unhealthy, but we've worked it out and have a pretty stable relationship nowadays, which feels great.) Anyway, yes, I too find it has been more difficult to connect with women, but it was NOT for lack of trying!! I tried hard to find women to connect with in the past, before I knew about my blurry boundary situation and figured myself out. I even made a PM group of girls that I loved to pieces in my past here on the forum, and tried hard to connect with them in there, on a more private level. I think there was maybe 4 girls in that group? At the time, I was worried that my need for emotional connection was becoming romantic with men. So I tried to stay away from that. I was highly confused about myself then. Anyway, it did NOT work. One of the girls who is no longer a part of this forum actually laughed at me and said in front of everyone that she could not make herself sit and read my messages because they were too much. She even began with "April, I love you, but..." Ugh. She did NOT love me and it was very evident. Thinking that could soften the blow of her words was insane. It hurt me a lot. But I needed to hear it. Maybe not in such a cruel way, but... I did need to hear it. I started to try then to not be so intense, but that didn't work either because I felt censored and repressed. It was not healthy, and I ended up deleting that group because I was so embarrassed and so full of shame. I think one or two of the girls comforted me, one which is here again after a long break from the forum. I will forever appreciate her for that, because she was kind and gentle with her words. But the damage was done by that other girl, and I had to heal from it and try to learn from it. That worked after a while of contemplating and hearing others encourage me, and especially after I realized how my intensity was not romance. It was simply intensity and longing for connection. I am now more careful with who I become that intense with on a personal level. I was just trying to search for girls I could connect with, because I thought I was at risk for developing romantic feelings. And at that time, I was, because I would confuse my intensity for romance and then actually feel romantic feelings, as in self actualizing. Intense connection, intimacy, and romance are not one and the same. Not for me.

Yes, I can be very wordy. Just look at this post! :sweatsmile::grimacing: But I feel A LOT! I can be really intense, even platonically. I treasure any type of intimacy. I crave it so bad! And I think some women love that, but some also hate it with other women. Especially the catty ones, lol. And especially if the woman thinks I am hitting on her, because I keep it no secret that I am sexually attracted to women as well. I also think that was part of my dad's raising techniques. He would always point to other women and say, "Look at her body, don't you want to look like that?" I know, its brutal that my dad would actually think that HELPED me or motivated me in some way to lose weight. But he truly thought that. In his mind, he was providing me with concrete examples of what I should strive for, but instead, it made me have a complex where I constantly compared myself to other women, and always looked at their bodies, noticing what was beautiful about them. Over time that developed into noticing what I personally like, which is NOT the same as what he likes. He likes very fit and slender women no matter the personality, whereas I prefer thicker, more curvy, and soft looking in general. But personality makes the woman attractive or unattractive to me, so she can be the most beautiful thing in the world, but if her personality sucks, I don't feel a sexual attraction. OR an emotional one, which is critical for the actual sexual attraction. Of course I can look at a man or woman without knowing them and think they are attractive, but it goes no further than that, ever. Not for me. I think that is part of my being demisexual... there has to be a true connection for me to really be attracted on a serious level.

Actually the same exact thing goes with men for me too. I prefer a softer looking man type than a hard and refined or "ripped" look. However if his personality is ugly, then so is he. Also, if he or she is not that attractive physically, but has the most beautiful soul, I will end up thinking they are beautiful on the outside too. They are just one and the same for me, usually. I know I can appear to be very superficial when commenting on looks and my preferences, but in the end, it's all about that person's energy and who they are on the inside. <3 The end, lol.

This conversation has given me a lot to think on too. I kinda went off topic a few times, but to me it is all connected, in my mind. I apologize if the OP has any problem with me veering off topic to talk about myself and my experiences, which I tend to do in order to connect with people. I am learning that this isn't a fault. I am learning to not be ashamed of wanting to talk about myself because that is how I connect. I share myself with the other person. Only patient people need apply! LOL. But again, I apologize if I somehow offended the OP... @worthy as the OP of this thread, PM me if you want to, my inbox is always open. <3
 
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Oh man, this thread is kind of a shit-show but I can't stop reading it, certified classic! :laughing:

Keep the hits coming.

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I have more male friends than female. I don't know why, it just works out that way. A lot have been online. I have been able to have fulfilling friendships with people of the opposite sex without blurring the lines of friendship. I have very clear and solid boundaries about what I will and won't talk about with other people. This doesn't really change much between men and women. I generally will not say anything that I wouldn't want my boyfriend to read if I like... died or something. I have a very high level of respect for him and he is first among all relationships. It doesn't matter how close of a friendship I have with someone else, my romantic relationship is #1 and so all my other social connections will unfold with that running in the background. It's not something I have to make any conscious effort about. It's just how I operate.

Because of this I feel that I can still have fulfilling friendships with others without it becoming problematic, but maybe what I consider to be "close" is only a fraction of what is being described in this thread. For me, this looks like a mutual understanding of who we are. I don't feel that I have to over explain myself to get the point across. I can say something and it is understood. There is a lot of intuition there and mutual respect. We can say a lot without saying much. I like friendships where I feel "in flow" with people. There is a sense of ease and balance but also a LOT of space. Some of my closest friendships are with people that I might not even talk to for weeks at a time. I've never felt that maintaining healthy friendships (or relationships) meant being in contact at every opportunity.

My answer to this would have been different in my 20's where I had a lot of "deep dive" friendships with a lot of people and some of those friendships were very unhealthy but at that time I would have thought that's how things were supposed to be and that without going all in and being in constant contact and updating each other on everything that it would all fall apart. These days I have become very selective about who I have in my life. I have kept friendships with people who have an understanding of my personality. I compartmentalize all of my social connections and can go to different people for different things and I can go into those things with a lot of depth and vulnerability. The kind of friendships that I had in my 20's would now feel really suffocating to me.
 
Asa said:
So, to get back to what Worthy was asking:

As an NF who thrives of deep connections, I avoid friendships where there is any conflict like this. I'd never have a friendship with a man whose wife disapproved of it. I try to find fulfillment in different ways. I try not to weigh too heavily on any of my friends, anyway. Maybe that is why I'm still on the forum. I want a place to discuss feelings and ideas with people. I have other creative outlets, too.
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This is true for me too.
 
I also have more male friendships than female. It's a pretty standard pattern for me. Female friendships are much harder for me to navigate, I find. I do not need constant contact, nor do I tell every close friend everything. As SE stated, different friends are for different vulnerabilities.

I tend to click with people who have a strong sense of who they are and what works for them.

I have worked on being attracted to unavailable men and it's no longer something I will entertain. I have friendships with single and married men. We don't let it get too weird.

I agree that friendship and love can get blurry for some of us, but if you can let that pass through and not act on it, it's likely a more loving gesture than breaking up someone's relationship.

I believe you have to know your values and theirs. If both people are steadfast on not crossing that line no matter the circumstance, as long as the partner is on board, I don't see an issue.

I definitely have more time for these friendships being single. If I was in a partnership I would have to balance my time and attention differently, of course.
 
I've made a few female friends in real life. We're all working on the same project: religious goals. Outside of that, I have female colleagues in my professional environment. Some I can tell are attracted to me but I won't do it because we're professionally linked. I also can't do that because I'm committed to someone now despite being single. I really like her and I don't want to ever explain a long list of hook-ups or partners to her. I'd be ashamed to admit to that and demonstrate a lack of self-control.

Anyway, my female friends online are really cool. They all happen to be beautiful women but I don't intend to pursue them romantically because they're all a bit older than myself. Also, some are in relationships as well so I wouldn't try to break them up for my own selfish pleasure.

If I ever lose faith in long-term monogamous love and start hooking up with people again, I don't know what that will mean for the rest of my life. That said, it would probably feel physically good.
 
What a rich thread. Thank you all for sharing your thoughts, insights, and opinions. Lots of good food for thought.

I'm not going to spend time further explaining or defending the friendship that has become the focus of this thread. But I do appreciate all the different kinds of responses it catalyzed.

A few things I feel moved to respond to..

slant said:
I guess it is just a trigger for me because when people try to change my behavior when I've expressed what I struggle with, it feels like they didn't want me for me but they want me to be somebody I'm not. It's not that I don't want to improve, I'm going to therapy, I'm doing everything I can, but I'm at where I'm at and when I was a kid I was nitpicked all the time told that the way I was basically was wrong and it's taken a long time to come to a place of self acceptance for me. I accept who I am, flaws and all, I try to work on myself but usually I'll understand my limitations and that it takes time to really learn new skills.
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@slant , thank you for sharing this. I get how sometimes triggers happen even when the thing isn't about you. This thread isn't about you, I promise. It sounds like you're very self-aware and working hard to maintain your inner confidence, especially around people who are insensitive to your needs. Being who you are is paramount, and investing in relationships with people who want you to be something you are not isn't healthy or wise. Knowing and communicating these things about ourselves can be a huge challenge. I'm in that boat. I get it.

April said:
I agree with you, however one must be careful because one of the criteria for a demisexual like us is for there to be an emotional connection. So it's halfway there, we just have to be careful to recognize if it starts to become sexual within us (on a serious level, past a harmless thought) or if we start to notice sexual cues from the other person.
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This is one of a number of comments that makes me ask: Why are we assuming people are (or, *I* am) not capable of recognizing red flags and doing the right thing when they pop up? Why is "healthy and capable" not the default? Isn't it our responsibility to show up in every relationship in a mindful and healthy way? Boundaries are effective when used according to package directions and as long as warnings are heeded...yk? I get that not everyone does this, but why do we assume unhealthy/incapable is the starting point?

As humans, we have the technical capability to be sexual with any other human. And yet we do not have sexual relationships or interactions with the overwhelming majority of the people we come in contact with. In my mind, that's the default, and sexual behavior is only welcome with invitation and consent. So my default about relationships is that they are not sexual or romantic in nature, unless they start to show signs of either of those things, and then that's a red flag to me in any relationship to step back and reassess and make a decision about whether it's appropriate to go in that direction or not.

I have strong boundaries. I've been practicing and strengthening them for 30 years of adulthood. I trust that other adults also have strong boundaries -- or that if they don't, the signs will be there and I can trust myself to respond appropriately, likely by stepping back from the relationship (if it's meant to be platonic).

Asa said:
If you are in a relationship with a person who has a substance abuse problem, you may address it at any time. You're also allowed to address abuse at any time, even if you put up with it in the past. You never need to put up with chronic unhealthy behaviors in a relationship. IMO, the goal of a relationship is to build a happy life and help each other grow, become better people, and be happier. Festering in destructive behaviors is none of those things.
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Yes. All of the good intentions about giving an anxious partner space for their jealousy (or whatever...there are many possible examples) go out the window if there is abuse. Someone who is being abused by their partner -- even subtle emotional abuse -- should not be obligated to "make space" for their partner's imperfections if those imperfections are harming them.

Asa said:
That's true. So, know yourself and avoid relationships that bring out the worst in you.
If you're the jealous type, find a more traditional partner who doesn’t keep a diverse group of friends. If you’re the independent type, don’t date people who are controlling.
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It really is so important to try to choose a partner whose needs and habits are compatible with your needs and habits. One big challenge is when you choose a partner before some needs and habits take shape or become apparent, or if you're not yet clear on what your needs are. Sometimes you end up incompatible even if you started off feeling like a good match. Being clear about your needs from the start, and transparent about their ongoing evolution if they change, feels really important to me. Sometimes incompatibilities that surface later are sad and unfortunate, and sometimes tjhat ends relationships, but I think sometimes ending a relationship over an incompatibility is the most compassionate way for both partners to move forward, if there isn't a way to meet in the middle.

Asa said:
I think you need big hugs and high fives. As long as I've known you on the forum, you've tried hard to improve who you are. It does take a long time to improve and heal.
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@slant YES!! Virtual hugs and high-fives to you, if you'll accept them from me (a virtual stranger). You deserve them.

April said:
Sometimes for those of us who have been through trauma and have anxious attachment styles in some relationships, it can feel like judgement when statements are made, because we are insecure about this aspect of our lives. I try not to take things personally though, even when I feel insecure about things. Sometimes I fail, and that is okay. I just get back up and keep trying to fix what needs to be fixed in myself.
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I can relate to this myself, though I've done a lot of work over the years to overcome insecurities that used to trigger me to feel judged. Good for you for taking this approach, @April .

slant said:
Thanks for taking the time to explain. I think I'm getting pretty off topic with my clarification and I don't really have anything more to offer to the conversation on this level so I'll tap out instead of risking further derailment. Thanks @Asa and @worthy and @April and everyone else who responded to me and hopefully you will get some relevant discuss, good topic
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@slant , I don't mind anything you've posted here. Thank you (and everyone) for all the diverse contributions to this interesting thread. I'm not taking any tangents personally.

Anomaly said:
I relate to the OP quite a bit. Though, finding a connection like that seems to inevitably spur on some form of desire. I either come up against boundaries that I have to carefully consider, or alienation becomes recurrent. If I find myself longing to go deeper and deeper, then I have to ask myself if it is appropriate within the scope of the friendship, or how I'd feel if I were their spouse/partner looking in on the scenario. If I am ever given pause, I question the friend to be certain or I end up pulling away. I have yet to find a friendship which sated the need for more depth, nor one where I could continue diving further without some serious reservation or consequence. It leads to a lot of feelings of frustration and confusion.

I have found only a handful of women that I could connect to even moderately the ways mentioned (two are on this forum). I'm not sure why it is less common with females as opposed to males. I seem to communicate more seamlessly with males, in general, and always have.

This has given me a lot to think on, so I'm not particularly sure what else to contribute. Perhaps, other than saying, I understand.
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Thank you, @Anomaly , this was good to read.

April said:
This conversation has given me a lot to think on too. I kinda went off topic a few times, but to me it is all connected, in my mind. I apologize if the OP has any problem with me veering off topic to talk about myself and my experiences, which I tend to do in order to connect with people. I am learning that this isn't a fault. I am learning to not be ashamed of wanting to talk about myself because that is how I connect. I share myself with the other person. Only patient people need apply! LOL. But again, I apologize if I somehow offended the OP... @worthy as the OP of this thread, PM me if you want to, my inbox is always open. <3
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@April , I said this above, but I really have enjoyed the different directions this conversation has gone in, and it's given me lots to think about as well. I enjoy hearing about people's experiences and I agree with you that this is not a fault. Thank you (and all) for sharing.

SpecialEdition said:
Because of this I feel that I can still have fulfilling friendships with others without it becoming problematic, but maybe what I consider to be "close" is only a fraction of what is being described in this thread. For me, this looks like a mutual understanding of who we are. I don't feel that I have to over explain myself to get the point across. I can say something and it is understood. There is a lot of intuition there and mutual respect. We can say a lot without saying much. I like friendships where I feel "in flow" with people. There is a sense of ease and balance but also a LOT of space. Some of my closest friendships are with people that I might not even talk to for weeks at a time. I've never felt that maintaining healthy friendships (or relationships) meant being in contact at every opportunity.
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This sounds quite a bit like what I meant in my OP, though I used different words. To me, deep friendship involves intuition and sensitivity, some vulnerability (within boundaries), being understood without having to over-explain, and feeling easily connected. I don't necessarily talk with my closest friends at any particular interval. Maybe weekly, or a couple of times a month, or with spans of not connecting. One of the key things for me is that feeling of instant recognition when you do reconnect after a long period of space. Anyway, I don't think what you're describing is much different from what I think of as deep friendship.

Linda Loo said:
I also have more male friendships than female. It's a pretty standard pattern for me. Female friendships are much harder for me to navigate, I find. I do not need constant contact, nor do I tell every close friend everything. As SE stated, different friends are for different vulnerabilities.
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"Different friends are for different vulnerabilities" -- YES. I also find female friendships harder to navigate and just realized this may relate to having been bullied mostly by other girls as a kid. I also do not need constant contact (hellooooooo introvertedness!!!!!). Thanks for putting this into words.
 
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worthy said:
I rarely find people who can match my depth and intensity on an emotional level, and when I do find them, if it's a good match of a friendship, whatever the gender, I commit deeply and do whatever is needed to help that friendship last.
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I feel this deep need for intimacy that grows into something rather than it being contained and it’s unfortunate when the other doesn’t see the lightness of being “burdened” by loving another rather than this responsibility to one another. I think though that sometimes we all expect it in one another and it destroys intimacy rather than maintains it. May be why one type works or doesn’t and living constrained in this manner has a possibility of becoming more toxic and detrimental rather than helpful, though it has its “benefits” and downfalls evolutionarily. (I know. Eww) Maybe this method of relating to each other is more of a way of self preservation rather than real relation. I’m not sure. Everyone is different in this regard, though I don’t see how it’s okay to make it an expectation rather than a gift of itself that we can all appreciate and attend to as individuals. Together or alone. Hopefully not for the latter.
 
worthy said:
This question is specifically for the NFs in the crowd. I have been grappling for awhile with my need for emotionally intimate platonic relationships, and how it seems most people out in the world do not have as deep a need for this as I do, and as I have noticed my NF friends do. I know I'm very lucky to have friends who can relate.

I don't like to generalize based on gender, but I'm a woman, and for many years I have found seeking out and benefitting most from emotionally intimate relationships with men. To be clear, I'm talking about deep emotional/intellectual/creative/spiritual intimacy, maybe also shared experiences, but not sexual or romantic intimacy. I have no sexual attraction towards these friends (and I do keep that on my radar because -- boundaries).

I rarely find people who can match my depth and intensity on an emotional level, and when I do find them, if it's a good match of a friendship, whatever the gender, I commit deeply and do whatever is needed to help that friendship last.

It's all well and good if/when they are single. The problem comes up when their partners can't relate or other people around us don't get it. There are firm general social taboos in place in American society about who we share intimacy with (including emotional, not just physical). I get that this helps people who are inclined to stray in a hurtful way to do the right thing, at least sometimes. It helps others feel safe, which is also important. But in my experience, good boundaries prevent any threat.

It can be normal and healthy for some people to naturally need and appropriately manage this sort of friendship in a platonic way that is not a true threat to either person's marriage or partner, right? My experience says yes. But I'm asking because social norms do play an important role, and I want to be thoughtful in how I go against them, when I do.

I also am feeling a little self-righteous about my need for deep emotional intimacy and my ability to get that need met in platonic relationships, and frustrated that there are social structures that make it hard to hold onto even if you do find it. It feels as important to my health and balance as food, water, sleep, etc. To be so deeply seen, heard, and known is a rare but essential experience. I associate this with being an NF, but...? I have also experienced similar with INTJs and INTPs.

I am very lucky to have two current friends who are in this category; one is struggling in his marriage in part because his ISFP wife is jealous of his female friends (he's an ENFP). Obviously that's between them, but I *feel* his need for those friendships just as I feel my need to maintain a friendship with him. For him to walk away from those emotionally deep friendships would mean killing off a part of himself. and I would feel the same if I had to categorically walk away from my own emotionally deep friendships.

I would love to hear your thoughts on this.

(PS Hey, hello there; I took a break, I'm back, hi!!!!!!)
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I’m an ENFP. MY (H) INFJ. As NF’s we are both very intense with sharing our emotional intimacy. My (H) had an emotional affair. It completely devastated me. It took four years for him to understand how and when he crossed the line. I understand your need and drive to have that incredibly deep emotional intimacy with males. So did my husbands INFJ emotional affair partner. She’s famous for saying she resonates more with males than females. I’ve come to understand there was a certain amount of childhood trauma that she’s experienced that has led her to desire these specific relationships with men. She’s not in a relationship now and her past relationships were with emotionally unavailable men. The men she is attracted to do not give her the deep emotional intimacy she craves so she seeks it out while in relationships with other men. Her boyfriend at the time she had the EA with my husband was a heroin addict. I think you should examine why it’s so important for you to need so many emotionally intimate relationships. Everyone needs one or two very close friends. If you’ve ever been cheated on, you should understand why other women aren’t interested in their spouses becoming intimately connected to you. I truly believe you should talk to someone and see what might be missing from your childhood that would make you desire these connections from any source possible.
 
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