Enlightenment

John K said:
any of us who follow @Skarekrow's Merkabah thread will know how far he has travelled in order to try and separate suffering from the pain he experiences. I think that Nietzsche is probably quite right - we cannot develop ourselves without pain.
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Thanks John, I’m working at it. ;)
Yes...I agree that pain is necessary.
I still find that Gibran says it best:

On Pain
Kahlil Gibran

Your pain is the breaking of the shell that encloses your understanding.
Even as the stone of the fruit must break, that its heart may stand in the sun, so must you know pain.
And could you keep your heart in wonder at the daily miracles of your life, your pain would not seem less wondrous than your joy;
And you would accept the seasons of your heart, even as you have always accepted the seasons that pass over your fields.
And you would watch with serenity through the winters of your grief.


Much of your pain is self-chosen.
It is the bitter potion by which the physician within you heals your sick self.
Therefore trust the physician, and drink his remedy in silence and tranquillity:
For his hand, though heavy and hard, is guided by the tender hand of the Unseen,
And the cup he brings, though it burn your lips,
has been fashioned of the clay which the Potter has moistened with His own sacred tears.
​
 
Skarekrow said:
Thanks John, I’m working at it. ;)
Yes...I agree that pain is necessary.
I still find that Gibran says it best:

On Pain
Kahlil Gibran

Your pain is the breaking of the shell that encloses your understanding.
Even as the stone of the fruit must break, that its heart may stand in the sun, so must you know pain.
And could you keep your heart in wonder at the daily miracles of your life, your pain would not seem less wondrous than your joy;
And you would accept the seasons of your heart, even as you have always accepted the seasons that pass over your fields.
And you would watch with serenity through the winters of your grief.


Much of your pain is self-chosen.
It is the bitter potion by which the physician within you heals your sick self.
Therefore trust the physician, and drink his remedy in silence and tranquillity:
For his hand, though heavy and hard, is guided by the tender hand of the Unseen,
And the cup he brings, though it burn your lips,
has been fashioned of the clay which the Potter has moistened with His own sacred tears.
​
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Khalil Gibran is awesome! Did you read whole of the "The Prophet" by him?
 
Dado said:
Khalil Gibran is awesome! Did you read whole of the "The Prophet" by him?
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More times than I can count, lol.
He is awesome.
If you like ‘The Prophet”, I have his complete writings and they are no less profound or beautiful.
Cheers!
 
Interesting thing about Greeks is that around 3rd century philosopher called Pyrrho (founder of Pyrrhonism or Skepticism) did trip together with Alexander the Great to India during wars over there. He met various yogis, jains and buddhist monks with whome he had talks about nature of reality. When he came back, his new insights had influence on other Greek schools of thought like Stoicism. His teachings were about ataraxia as a primary goal, ataraxia being the state of equanimity very similar to nirvana or enlightenment ( buddhism). In Stoicism, there is similar goal which is apatheia, state of dispassion ( which is different from indifference or word apathy that is used today ). So from this we can see that some Greek schools of thought share similar goal. In my research, this is the closest as westerner had come to the real goal, but they never had person who did it, person who fully embodied total awakening, where on the east, Buddha and his disciples were the ones who achieved it. One Greek philosopher that I also like was Plotinus who was also in touch with eastern teachings but also at the same time was great influence on other philosophies and religions like Christianity, Islam etc...
 

There are many layers of enlightenment. An insight after another, shattering the concepts about the reality and how you thought it was. As the path becomes more and more subtle, the more the awareness is able to perceive.

If one wishes to really become enlightened, you will need a guide who guides you there. Shit makes less and less sense the more you see. It is easy to get caught up with a super-ego once things start to lose their meaning.. After all, enlightenment is not a goal but a never ending trip.

Heyoka!
 
TheFool said:

There are many layers of enlightenment. An insight after another, shattering the concepts about the reality and how you thought it was. As the path becomes more and more subtle, the more the awareness is able to perceive.

If one wishes to really become enlightened, you will need a guide who guides you there. Shit makes less and less sense the more you see. It is easy to get caught up with a super-ego once things start to lose their meaning.. After all, enlightenment is not a goal but a never ending trip.

Heyoka!
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Actually, I disagree with you. Enlightenment is goal and not a never ending trip. It happens when mind and senses are totally purified from cravings and negative emotions which is end of suffering. That's what word nirvana means, to blow out (defilements). But at the same time I agree that there are many layers to go through before total awakening happens. When it comes to guide, Buddha Dharma is only valid one, not Dharma as presented in Vajrayana, Mahayana or even Therevada but Pure Dharma, which you can find about if you translate Buddhist Sutras correctly. Also, realization of Pure Awareness is not enlightenment but realization of Emptiness or Shunya which happens when person develops full insight about three marks of existence (anicca, dukkha, anatta).
 
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Dado said:
Actually, I disagree with you. Enlightenment is goal and not a never ending trip. It happens when mind and senses are totally purified from cravings and negative emotions which is end of suffering. That's what word nirvana means, to blow out (defilements). But at the same time I agree that there are many layers to go through before total awakening happens. When it comes to guide, Buddha Dharma is only valid one, not Dharma as presented in Vajrayana, Mahayana or even Therevada but Pure Dharma, which you can find about if you translate Buddhist Sutras correctly. Also, realization of Pure Awareness is not enlightenment but realization of Emptiness or Shunya which happens when person develops full insight about three marks of existence (anicca, dukkha, anatta).
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Disagree with most what you wrote.
 
With most of it. It is quite arrogant to belittle the yanas. Once you take refugee, you give an oath to not talk anything bad about the Three Jewels in all their immeasurable forms. This is for your own good. One should never condemn the path of another if one has never gone that path him/herself.

Just saying. Don’t got the energy to debate.
 
TheFool said:
With most of it. It is quite arrogant to belittle the yanas. Once you take refugee, you give an oath to not talk anything bad about the Three Jewels in all their immeasurable forms. This is for your own good. One should never condemn the path of another if one has never gone that path him/herself.

Just saying. Don’t got the energy to debate.
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Jhanas have their purpose but if one wants to become liberated he doesn't need to go through jhanas but rather aim to develop wisdom and understanding which enables person to penetrate into Ultimate nature of reality. Buddha's best disciple Sariputta and a lot of others became enlightened this way, without practising jhanas.

Buddha always encouraged to question his teachings and not to worship him as to avoid dogmatism and blind faith. I didn't give oath and I don't see my self as buddhist, its just that Buddha explained how reality works in clearest way possible, that's why I follow most of his ideas. Truth doesn't belong to anyone. Buddha is just regular guy who putted a lot of effort and attained enlightenment, after which he decided to share his knowledge with others.

Vajrayana and Mahayana are sects that misrepresent Buddha's real teachings. They were under influence and pressure from people that were following Vedas and Hinduism after they then incorporated additional concepts like "Buddha Nature" or "Dharmakaya body" about which Buddha never talked about. They also put emphasis on siddhis(supernatural powers) and mystical states which are not relevant for enlightenment. Goal is to see reality as it is and not to get lost in various experiences.

I have been on that path and that's why I am against it, because I have realized that it doesn't lead to liberation. Goal of this thread is to find best way how to attain enlightenment or way with best practical implications and not to feed each others Egos with talks how everything is relative and that everyone is right.

Edit : I see that you wrote yanas and not jhanas. Nevertheless, what I wrote explains that too.
 
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Dado said:
Jhanas have their purpose but if one wants to become liberated he doesn't need to go through jhanas but rather aim to develop wisdom and understanding which enables person to penetrate into Ultimate nature of reality. Buddha's best disciple Sariputta and a lot of others became enlightened this way, without practising jhanas.

Buddha always encouraged to question his teachings and not to worship him as to avoid dogmatism and blind faith. I didn't give oath and I don't see my self as buddhist, its just that Buddha explained how reality works in clearest way possible, that's why I follow most of his ideas. Truth doesn't belong to anyone. Buddha is just regular guy who putted a lot of effort and attained enlightenment, after which he decided to share his knowledge with others.

Vajrayana and Mahayana are sects that misrepresent Buddha's real teachings. They were under influence and pressure from people that were following Vedas and Hinduism after they then incorporated additional concepts like "Buddha Nature" or "Dharmakaya body" about which Buddha never talked about. They also put emphasis on siddhis(supernatural powers) and mystical states which are not relevant for enlightenment. Goal is to see reality as it is and not to get lost in various experiences.

I have been on that path and that's why I am against it, because I have realized that it doesn't lead to liberation. Goal of this thread is to find best way how to attain enlightenment or way with best practical implications and not to feed each others Egos with talks how everything is relative and that everyone is right.

Edit : I see that you wrote yanas and not jhanas. Nevertheless, what I wrote explains that too.
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Dunno which path you have been on but you have not walked any of the yanas you mention here. You are just sharing your own interpretation of some illusory Goal, created by your mind. That is why a guiding teacher is so essential. He / She looks right through your bullshit and tells it as is.

The best way to enlighten oneself is to die/dissolve consciously. Then once “you” cease to exists, the hidden eye in the darkness is revealed. That is what the path you talked about is about. It is a direct path without flowers and happy hugs. It teaches you to dissolve consciously into the divine ecstasy. Not to analytically “purifying” your ego’s tendencies and behavior in order to become a better citizen. The path dissolves your thoughts, your body, your senses and your whole universe so that only that which cannot be dissolved remains; The All Seeing Seeingness.
 
TheFool said:
Dunno which path you have been on but you have not walked any of the yanas you mention here. You are just sharing your own interpretation of some illusory Goal, created by your mind. That is why a guiding teacher is so essential. He / She looks right through your bullshit and tells it as is.

The best way to enlighten oneself is to die/dissolve consciously. Then once “you” cease to exists, the hidden eye in the darkness is revealed. That is what the path you talked about is about. It is a direct path without flowers and happy hugs. It teaches you to dissolve consciously into the divine ecstasy. Not to analytically “purifying” your ego’s tendencies and behavior in order to become a better citizen. The path dissolves your thoughts, your body, your senses and your whole universe so that only that which cannot be dissolved remains; The All Seeing Seeingness.
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Being guided by teacher can be of big help but it is not essential because reading and contemplating about true Buddha's teachings and ideas is enough. Then one starts developing supermundane 8 fold path when right views are established after which person comes into Sotapanna stage that is attained by removing first feather out of 10 feathers in total. There is good quote that Buddha said about how to walk the path : "Monks, be islands unto yourselves, be your own refuge, having no other; let the Dhamma be an island and a refuge to you, having no other..." which means that person should mainly rely on him self and Dharma(emphasis on teachings) that he previously questioned and found for him self that they lead to enlightenment as described by Buddha.

What you call hidden eye in the darkness or "The All Seeing Seeingness" is just awareness. Buddha said that consciousness, awareness or Self(Atman) is another illusion that mind clings onto. He clearly said that all of 5 skhandas (where consciousness is fifth one is also without essence and that it is empty which means that it lacks inherited independent existence on its own to exist). What you describing is Moksha or enlightenment as described in Hinduism which is realization of pure awareness or jivanmukta. That is not true enlightenment, that's not nirvana.

I am not talking about analytical purifying of habitual tendencies with aim to become better citizen, but rather that establishment of right views enables person to come in contact and purge accumulated emotional energies in subconscious mind by bringing them into conscious awareness and letting go of negativity which results in dissolution of Ego and identity and eventually liberation.

You seem pretty defensive and closed off and I understand you. You have been probably for some time on path and you are now in stage where you think that you have figured out most of the things. So these topics are probably threatening for your status quo which is also evident in your passive-aggressive responses.
 
@Milktoast Bandit I disagree with whats said in the video. Not every philosophy and religion or even number of "True religions" as called in video can lead to Ultimate or Ego transcendence. That's just wishful thinking. Can religions help person with life, make him or her a better being and establish connection with God, yes. But still that's not enough, that is just the beginning. Next step person needs to do on his own, put effort and penetrate into nature of reality which leads to enlightenment or liberation. This other part or next step, other religions besides Buddhism don't talk about because non of their followers managed to do it.
 
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Dado said:
@Milktoast Bandit I disagree with whats said in the video. Not every philosophy and religion or even number of "True religions" as called in video can lead to Ultimate or Ego transcendence. That's just wishful thinking. Can religions help person with life, make him or her a better being and establish connection with God, yes. But still that's not enough, that is just the beginning. Next step person needs to do on his own, put effort and penetrate into nature of reality which leads to enlightenment or liberation. This other part or next step, other religions besides Buddhism don't talk about because non of their followers managed to do it.
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I do believe I disagree and I'll tell you why when I have more time to give to a thoughtful response. Probably tomorrow while I'm pooping after work...
 
Sandie33 said:
I believe it's important to respect the right to individual opinions regarding a topic.
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To not use higher cognitive functions of mind like discrimination which enables person to discern between right and wrong or to not use judgment and proper decision making is equivalent of numbing your intellect down. Mine intent wasn't to disrespect anybody's view but to show inconsistency and flawed logic.


Milktoast Bandit said:
I do believe I disagree and I'll tell you why when I have more time to give to a thoughtful response. Probably tomorrow while I'm pooping after work...
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Sure, I am glad that you are open to discuss :)
 
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