Evolution vs. Creationism

Satya...
Where did you get this quote from?

Debates like these are why I follow absurdism.

Faith is the method in which we believe that we can derive truth. To act on faith is absurd, but virtually all people act on faith. Whether it is faith in a Holy Scripture or faith in empirically derived evidence or faith in reason through deduction; it is still a faith that at one point in time a person reflected upon and chose to act on before all the others.

It is laughable that any human being believes they know the Truth in a world of so many truths. People usually create meaning in their own lives, whether it is religion, spirituality, politics, science, whatever.
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Ah... not on here.

Absurdism would be the only 'ism' I would claim to adhere to. Camus' book, The Myth of Sisyphus, is probably my most treasured tome. It is one of the few books I have carried with me over the years.
Absurdism is the only school of thought which made sense to me.
Hence also, my deep appreciation for Beckett (Waiting For Godot) and other Absurdist playwrights.
 
Duty said:
Irrelevant. God is supposedly omnipotent. If God has the power to do anything he wills, and is benevolent, then we should all be happy and healthy all the time. God purposely created evil and suffering. He knew, with omniscience, all the possible worlds, and with being omnipotent, could have created any possible world. He chose to create one where the living beings in it suffer MISERABLY. He chose to create one where the beings in it rape each other, murder each other, electrocute each others' testicles, send each other to gas chambers and systematically torture each other. God, if he is indeed the creator, is omnipotent, and is omniscient, has chosen to create humans that suffer immeasurably.
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Very well then, another approach is needed.

Why does it logically follow that God's benevolence implies our happiness, or even our health and safety? We've all spurned God, he owes us nothing. He made us, we chose to ignore him, we complain when we're left to our own devices and our own devices harm us. Take health for example. The majority of health issues are lifestyle related. This includes cancers, cholesterol, blood pressure, etc. How is that God's fault?

When I was 3 years old, I dragged a chair over the stove and began playing with the control knobs. My dad saw this happen and had an intense desire to intervene directly, but knew I had to learn for myself. He told me not to play with it. I ignored him. He called me name, got my attention, looked me straight in the eye, and asked me to come to him and stop playing with the stove. I knew it made things hot. I ignored him. I turned back to the stove, turned it on, and deliberately placed my hand on the burner. I got hurt. It wasn't my dad's fault - it was my fault for not listening. This story sums up much of what goes on here on Earth, yet we blame God. The only way my dad could have stopped me from getting hurt would be to intervene directly - to physically remove me from the oven, or at least to prevent me from touching it. But that would have hurt me emotionally and made me more defiant to him. I wouldn't have learned. I would only have hated him for it. Quoting Tolkein, "The burned hand teaches best. After that, advice about fire goes straight to the heart." Yet people refuse to learn, and continue to blame God for not stopping them.

Again, how does God's benevolence imply our happiness? Where free will exists, happiness is never guaranteed. That's because we're free to choose something that will cause pain. Pain itself isn't evil - it's an indicator that something is wrong. Pain is necessary in a world of free will, or we wouldn't realize that a broken leg is a serious thing.

And if we're talking about the Christian God - where you took your definition from - you have to keep a couple other things in mind. Christ suffered horribly. He was abandonded by everyone, his court trial itself was illegal, there was no consistent evidence against him, and he was sentenced to the worst death possible at the hands of master torturers. If we're talking about the Christian God, then Jesus was God become Man. God allows suffering and God himself suffered.

God's benevolence does not imply happiness (a fleeting emotion) or health or safety. It implies God is good and wants the best for us. God wants us to learn, to grow, to mature. You don't grow up if you're never confronted with difficulty.
 
Milon said:
When I was 3 years old, I dragged a chair over the stove and began playing with the control knobs. My dad saw this happen and had an intense desire to intervene directly, but knew I had to learn for myself. He told me not to play with it. I ignored him. He called me name, got my attention, looked me straight in the eye, and asked me to come to him and stop playing with the stove. I knew it made things hot. I ignored him. I turned back to the stove, turned it on, and deliberately placed my hand on the burner. I got hurt. It wasn't my dad's fault - it was my fault for not listening. This story sums up much of what goes on here on Earth, yet we blame God. The only way my dad could have stopped me from getting hurt would be to intervene directly - to physically remove me from the oven, or at least to prevent me from touching it. But that would have hurt me emotionally and made me more defiant to him. I wouldn't have learned. I would only have hated him for it. Quoting Tolkein, "The burned hand teaches best. After that, advice about fire goes straight to the heart." Yet people refuse to learn, and continue to blame God for not stopping them.
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Your dad is not omnipotent, he is not omniscient. He did not create the fire. He did not create the desire in you for curiosity. Your dad did not create the world with the knowledge that you would burn yourself. He did not have the chance to create a world where you don't suffer. Your father did not have the choice of what world he or you was born into.

Your God is omnipotent, he is omniscient. He created fire and heat. He created you with curiosity enough to touch fire. He created the world with the foreknowledge you would be burnt. God deliberately created a world where you suffer. God had the choice of any world, and he chose this one.

Milon said:
Again, how does God's benevolence imply our happiness? Where free will exists, happiness is never guaranteed. That's because we're free to choose something that will cause pain. Pain itself isn't evil - it's an indicator that something is wrong. Pain is necessary in a world of free will, or we wouldn't realize that a broken leg is a serious thing.
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Part of benevolence means you want to see happiness and not suffering, right? Part of it means you want to see good in the world, and not evil. God could have created a world where we have "free will" yet don't suffer at all. He chose not to. He chose a world where we suffer horribly. He either didn't care about the suffering he was creating when he created the world, or he wanted people to suffer. Either way, he doesn't sound very benevolent.

Milon said:
God's benevolence does not imply happiness (a fleeting emotion) or health or safety. It implies God is good and wants the best for us. God wants us to learn, to grow, to mature. You don't grow up if you're never confronted with difficulty.
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God is omnipotent. He could have made it so we grow, mature, and learn, without suffering, and without any more difficulty then we find comfortable and challenging. He chose not to. Instead we have a world where people, without choice, die of starvation by the thousands each day. Wtf is the reason for that? Seriously, wtf does subjecting 25,000 people each day to starvation have to do with "growing and learning?" It's a kick in the teeth to those individuals starving right now to tell them that they're there "so someday humanity as a whole will grow up and feed your people."

Additionally, the way I understand it, God doesn't give a crap about humanity "growing up and learning," but instead is just going to appear from the clouds one day, and have his angels smash heads on people that don't worship him. In fact, this, iirc, is supposed to happen when humanity is at its worst. Admittedly, I haven't spend vast swathes of time to read Revelations so I could be slightly off on this.

This God, who would wait for humanity to impose such harsh suffering on itself, just to prove a point that, "Lawlz, I'm pro and come from teh sky so all j00 base r belong 2 me now and all j00 haf to worshp now lol."



Sorry that I'm ranting again. The whole idea is just so absurd...and to think of the amount of suffering imposed on people because they don't choose to accept such absurdity as truth...that frustrates me. I see it in everyday life as people give me disgusted looks just for even saying I don't believe in the existence of a God.

I'm not trying to attack you here Milon, or anyone else. I'm just frustrated. I'm just tired of being told to accept these things on faith. I'm tired of religion imposing itself in my life. Although politically it doesn't have as much influence as some would like to believe, culturally it's deep within the roots of our society. Culturally I can't walk down the street without Christianity being thrown in my face from one angle or another. I mean, yesterday I had everyone asking if I had plans for Easter, I had one person telling me that they would take me to their church for Easter, since I'm new to Alaska and don't know where the churches are. I mean...ugh. Seriously, it's frustrating.
 
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Duty said:
Sorry for getting crappy about this. It's just getting frustrating, because in everyday life, people expect you to believe in God (at least everywhere I've lived). I'm tired of the looks I get when I try to be calm and rational about this subject. It's really hard to remain at all non-emotional when your objectivity is almost always repaid with suspicion and disgust. It's enough to make even an INTP angry...
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I think this is something we can agree on, Duty :D This topic is naturally a very frustrating one, even for level-headed people...
 
The way I feel about it is that this 'god' is pure consciousness, the joint awareness of all conscious and unconscious energy. As such it would need to be impartial because it would understand every situation relative to the other, one persons happiness is anothers sorrow and as you said, forcefull intervention would stop free will.

That cigarette you smoke is definitely not doing you any good but I don
 
anahata said:
The way I feel about it is that this 'god' is pure consciousness, the joint awareness of all conscious and unconscious energy.
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Why do you believe this? I mean, what proof do you have that the "joint awareness of all conscious and unconscious energy? What proof do you have that such an energy exists as an independent entity with its own conscious thought? What proof do you have that consciousness itself is an energy and not just a result of other energies?
 
Duty said:
Why do you believe this? I mean, what proof do you have that the "joint awareness of all conscious and unconscious energy? What proof do you have that such an energy exists as an independent entity with its own conscious thought? What proof do you have that consciousness itself is an energy and not just a result of other energies?
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I didn't say it existed 'independently'. And if something was a result of energies it would still be energy. Energy cannot be created or destroyed, its the cause and effect of itself isn't it? Its a constant motion from one form to another. And thoughts are biochemical electrical impulses, they are waves of energy too.

The subconscious mind is far more powerful than the conscous mind in being able to process and store information. I'm only able to go on what I've experienced, whether it's been imagined or not many people have apparently experienced hightned levels of awareness. I wish I had some proof for you, I can suggest some things for you to try though!! :p
And just because I believe it doesn't mean I'm right. Maybe it's just my warped mind playing tricks on me. :o :D
 
anahata said:
The subconscious mind is far more powerful than the conscous mind in being able to process and store information. I'm only able to go on what I've experienced, whether it's been imagined or not many people have apparently experienced hightned levels of awareness. I wish I had some proof for you, I can suggest some things for you to try though!! :p
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Sure, I'd love to know what all you are talking about with this supernatural stuff, which seems like nonsense to me. As long as I don't have to do anything illegal anyways...

anahata said:
And just because I believe it doesn't mean I'm right. Maybe it's just my warped mind playing tricks on me. :o :D
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If you don't feel justified in your belief, then why do you hold it?
 
Duty said:
Sure, I'd love to know what all you are talking about with this supernatural stuff, which seems like nonsense to me. As long as I don't have to do anything illegal anyways...


If you don't feel justified in your belief, then why do you hold it?
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Oh no don't get me wrong, I don't doubt my beliefs. That was just a light hearted comment, I hate "noitalls" and didn't want to come across like one.

Illegal? There are legal ways, one of which particularly easy to get hold of and use. PM you later :)
 
Something created the Universe

God created the Universe

Therefor that something is God

You can argue about the nature if god till the cows come home. It is clear though that everyone has their own perception of what it he or she is. You might call creation the big bang, I call it divine intention. What I call the ever present spirit, you might call quantum forces.

We can argue about the nature of God weather your theology is Christian, Muslim, Jewish, Buddist, or scientific. It is clear however that there are profound forces that are beyond our understanding, divine or science or both they have a deep affect on human existence.
 
Lucifer said:
Something created the Universe

God created the Universe

Therefor that something is God

You can argue about the nature if god till the cows come home. It is clear though that everyone has their own perception of what it he or she is. You might call creation the big bang, I call it divine intention. What I call the ever present spirit, you might call quantum forces.

We can argue about the nature of God weather your theology is Christian, Muslim, Jewish, Buddist, or scientific. It is clear however that there are profound forces that are beyond our understanding, divine or science or both they have a deep affect on human existence.
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What proof do you have that the universe didn't come into existence on its own? What proof do you have that it hasn't always existed? If something had to create the universe, and that was God, then what created God?


And what "profound forces" are you referring to?
 
Duty said:
Your dad is not omnipotent, he is not omniscient. He did not create the fire. He did not create the desire in you for curiosity. Your dad did not create the world with the knowledge that you would burn yourself. He did not have the chance to create a world where you don't suffer. Your father did not have the choice of what world he or you was born into.

Your God is omnipotent, he is omniscient. He created fire and heat. He created you with curiosity enough to touch fire. He created the world with the foreknowledge you would be burnt. God deliberately created a world where you suffer. God had the choice of any world, and he chose this one.
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I got hurt because I didn't listen to the one who loved me. God says to honour your parents, which I didn't do. My dad said to not touch the oven, but I ignored him too. The suffering (minor as it was) was my own fault.

Duty said:
Part of benevolence means you want to see happiness and not suffering, right? Part of it means you want to see good in the world, and not evil. God could have created a world where we have "free will" yet don't suffer at all. He chose not to. He chose a world where we suffer horribly. He either didn't care about the suffering he was creating when he created the world, or he wanted people to suffer. Either way, he doesn't sound very benevolent.
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I disagree. The only way to have free will that doesn't lead to suffering is if all choices are good. But that would limit free will. A lot. God would look at us and say, "Yeah, they love me, and yeah, life's great, but what choice did they have? It's not like they could have done anything different." While such people would not be total robots, they would certainly not be free like we are. I'm only saying it would be a radically different existence, and from my perspective it would be rather fake. It would be a forced morality. A forced love. Which is no real morality or love at all.

Duty said:
God is omnipotent. He could have made it so we grow, mature, and learn, without suffering, and without any more difficulty then we find comfortable and challenging. He chose not to. Instead we have a world where people, without choice, die of starvation by the thousands each day. Wtf is the reason for that? Seriously, wtf does subjecting 25,000 people each day to starvation have to do with "growing and learning?" It's a kick in the teeth to those individuals starving right now to tell them that they're there "so someday humanity as a whole will grow up and feed your people."
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There is more than enough food in the world to feed everyone. We only need a couple tens of millions of tonnes of food more to feed everyone (I believe that's anually). North America alone wastes a couple billion tonnes of food anually. The food is there. And - this is not an attack - but what are you doing to allieviate the suffering you see? What are you doing about starving children and AID's victims, etc? You can't blame God for not taking action if you do nothing yourself. Honestly, think of the impact we could have if everyone in North America gave $1 per month to aid situations like that! It would be so easy! And yet it's so rare to find people who will give to others. Selfishness is the cause of suffering, Duty. Not God.

Duty said:
Additionally, the way I understand it, God doesn't give a crap about humanity "growing up and learning," but instead is just going to appear from the clouds one day, and have his angels smash heads on people that don't worship him. In fact, this, iirc, is supposed to happen when humanity is at its worst. Admittedly, I haven't spend vast swathes of time to read Revelations so I could be slightly off on this.

This God, who would wait for humanity to impose such harsh suffering on itself, just to prove a point that, "Lawlz, I'm pro and come from teh sky so all j00 base r belong 2 me now and all j00 haf to worshp now lol."
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At this time I don't think it would be profitable to our conversation to talk about worship of God. God's not on an ego trip, but I can't adequatedly explain it if you believe God is evil and desires suffering for us.

Duty said:
Sorry that I'm ranting again. The whole idea is just so absurd...and to think of the amount of suffering imposed on people because they don't choose to accept such absurdity as truth...that frustrates me. I see it in everyday life as people give me disgusted looks just for even saying I don't believe in the existence of a God.

I'm not trying to attack you here Milon, or anyone else. I'm just frustrated. I'm just tired of being told to accept these things on faith. I'm tired of religion imposing itself in my life. Although politically it doesn't have as much influence as some would like to believe, culturally it's deep within the roots of our society. Culturally I can't walk down the street without Christianity being thrown in my face from one angle or another. I mean, yesterday I had everyone asking if I had plans for Easter, I had one person telling me that they would take me to their church for Easter, since I'm new to Alaska and don't know where the churches are. I mean...ugh. Seriously, it's frustrating.
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I know you're not attacking me, but thanks for saying so anyway. This is a personal topic for us all. And about the whole Easter thing, etc - they're offering what they perceive is good and helpful. Take it in that spirit even if you decline the invitations. That'll lessen your frustration over it. Maybe. :wink:
 
I bet I'd like Dragonball Creationism a whole lot better than Dragonball Evolution.
 
Shai Gar said:
I bet I'd like Dragonball Creationism a whole lot better than Dragonball Evolution.
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I'm glad I saw that movie only because I didn't have to pay for it and now I have something to bitch about :3
 
Oy...arguments like this are always cyclical. Matter and energy co-exist. Even in the big bang we have something starting something. There ultimately has to be something which occurs from a force. So what created the energy source? I'm not asking, because I have my own beliefs on that score. And frankly, these types of arguments frustrate and bore me because I see a never ending cycle. It's all about "what ifs" while I prefer "the ends." (J vs P).

But here I am, putting my two cents in...I may discuss for a while. We'll see.
 
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