Evolution vs. Creationism

[anahata]

We have a limited perception, with only a few senses how can we really comprehend what is beyond? Interesting article here you might like to check out http://www.bbc5.tv/news/story/amazing-holographic-universe

 

[Quinlan]

Oy...arguments like this are always cyclical. Matter and energy co-exist. Even in the big bang we have something starting something. There ultimately has to be something which occurs from a force. So what created the energy source? I'm not asking, because I have my own beliefs on that score. And frankly, these types of arguments frustrate and bore me because I see a never ending cycle. It's all about "what ifs" while I prefer "the ends." (J vs P).

But here I am, putting my two cents in...I may discuss for a while. We'll see.

Who/whatever created the big bang, I see no reason to call that god.

 

[gloomy-optimist]

What do you call it?

 

[Quinlan]

The great unknown.

I just think the word god is so loaded with supernatural (and the whole "personal god" thing) meaning, it just causes confusion when applied to things like energy, or existence or everything we don't know. We already have words for those.

 

[gloomy-optimist]

To some people, that is God

 

[Quinlan]

To some people, that is God

Well why not say so? "I worship everything we don't currently know" (which is a little silly really).

 

[gloomy-optimist]

Because most people don't really want to think of it that way.

I guess when you think of it, there's really no point to resist the idea of God, because God could be anything you chose it to be -- even within a religion like Christianity, the idea of God boils down to a personal perspective

 

[arbygil]

Who/whatever created the big bang, I see no reason to call that god.

You don't have to.

But I've always thought of sentience as being something incredibly special, and I find that each type of life form on earth - whether cell, organism, fish, plant, animal, or human - is built similarly and possesses similar logical qualities. I can't see some kind of cosmic energy as the precursor to sentience and identity. I see order in the universe and I don't see this order as accidental. I see too much specificity in all life for things to have just happened by accident. There is order to the genus and species, and the flora and fauna. I see reason behind it all.

And I couple Fe with that reason, and I (personally) find faith in knowing that Something Sentient must have put order to the universe for things to run this way. There's no proof, no magic textbook, no words of knowledge I can give to convince others, though. I figure if people are willing to dig, and if they're open minded, they'll find the answers.

 

[Quinlan]

Because most people don't really want to think of it that way.

I guess when you think of it, there's really no point to resist the idea of God, because God could be anything you chose it to be -- even within a religion like Christianity, the idea of God boils down to a personal perspective

So does that make the word god meaningless, or completely subjective?

You don't have to.

But I've always thought of sentience as being something incredibly special, and I find that each type of life form on earth - whether cell, organism, fish, plant, animal, or human - is built similarly and possesses similar logical qualities. I can't see some kind of cosmic energy as the precursor to sentience and identity. I see order in the universe and I don't see this order as accidental. I see too much specificity in all life for things to have just happened by accident. There is order to the genus and species, and the flora and fauna. I see reason behind it all.

This is very interesting, I don't mean this in a bad way but that is such an INFJ perspective, you're naturally inclined to look for meaning, symbols, patterns and order. What is it about sentience that is so special? I'm not sure what definition you're going by, if you mean "capable of perception" then what is so special about that? it is just something that happens to improve survival rates. I don't know how the first life form came about but I am not surprised that somewhere in the near incomprehensible vastness of time and space that the right conditions came about to spark initial life, all it would take is that initial spark, that once in a trillion, trillion, gazillion year occurance for life to then spread like wildfire.

All organisms have similar qualities because they possibly all came from the same source and they all operate within the laws of physics, they are bounded and shaped by the laws of physics and that is where structure in nature comes from. There is no reason to conclude that the laws of physics were created by god, we will probably never know so it is prudent not to assume that they were.

There is order in life because it is constantly being passed through the seive of the laws of physics (which do provide some sense of order in our part of the universe), this works as a refining process, evolution.

And I couple Fe with that reason, and I (personally) find faith in knowing that Something Sentient must have put order to the universe for things to run this way. There's no proof, no magic textbook, no words of knowledge I can give to convince others, though. I figure if people are willing to dig, and if they're open minded, they'll find the answers.

Well my personal belief is that order, ultimately, is only an illusion.

 

[arbygil]

So does that make the word god meaningless, or completely subjective?



This is very interesting, I don't mean this in a bad way but that is such an INFJ perspective, you're naturally inclined to look for meaning, symbols, patterns and order.

Actually, I'm flattered. No offense at all.

What is it about sentience that is so special? I'm not sure what definition you're going by, if you mean "capable of perception" then what is so special about that? it is just something that happens to improve survival rates.

I mean consciousness, and awareness and perception. But to me that *is* special. It's something that makes me different from other people. It's the reason why I act differently from others and why my experiences feel different from others even if we experience the same thing.

I don't know how the first life form came about but I am not surprised that somewhere in the near incomprehensible vastness of time and space that the right conditions came about to spark initial life, all it would take is that initial spark, that once in a trillion, trillion, gazillion year occurance for life to then spread like wildfire.

Sure, life exists, but to me there's something special about all of us - maybe it's egotism, and I'd agree with that. I think we're all individuals and that's wonderful to me. I love the diversity.

All organisms have similar qualities because they possibly all came from the same source and they all operate within the laws of physics, they are bounded and shaped by the laws of physics and that is where structure in nature comes from. There is no reason to conclude that the laws of physics were created by god, we will probably never know so it is prudent not to assume that they were.

There is order in life because it is constantly being passed through the seive of the laws of physics (which do provide some sense of order in our part of the universe), this works as a refining process, evolution.

But as that's pure reason to you, that simply reinforces the idea that God exists. The laws of physics are the same - which to me indicates order. Everything has to act in order. If there wasn't a God, then I'd expect to see all sorts of chaotic things happening.

Well my personal belief is that order, ultimately, is only an illusion.

Totally up to you. I feel it's more real...unless it's my house.

 

[Quinlan]

I mean consciousness, and awareness and perception. But to me that *is* special. It's something that makes me different from other people. It's the reason why I act differently from others and why my experiences feel different from others even if we experience the same thing.

Well those things are special of course but to me they're not special in a "they're so special it must be god!" kind of way, for me it's more of a "isn't it amazing that all these natural processes have combined over so many years to form such advanced life" yet in the back of my mind I'm still thinking "intelligence/conciousness is just another survival advantage that has worked pretty well so far".

Sure, life exists, but to me there's something special about all of us - maybe it's egotism, and I'd agree with that. I think we're all individuals and that's wonderful to me. I love the diversity.

Me too!

But as that's pure reason to you, that simply reinforces the idea that God exists. The laws of physics are the same - which to me indicates order. Everything has to act in order. If there wasn't a God, then I'd expect to see all sorts of chaotic things happening.

Why does order = god and chaos = not god? Must be your J bias.

 

[arbygil]

Well those things are special of course but to me they're not special in a "they're so special it must be god!" kind of way, for me it's more of a "isn't it amazing that all these natural processes have combined over so many years to form such advanced life" yet in the back of my mind I'm still thinking "intelligence/conciousness is just another survival advantage that has worked pretty well so far".

Mmm, I can see your point of view in that. I just can't stop there - I continue seeing the varieties of life as special, with special meaning. If I had the ability to gaze at every atom with my naked eyes I'd probably be transfixed for hours, because I'd see fascinating nuances in each one. And I'd say, "Wow! I wonder what/Who created all of these special atoms!" because I'm weird like that. My feeling/desire/hope/belief is that it's not just survival; it's special.

Me too!

WOOT!

Why does order = god and chaos = not god? Must be your J bias.

Lol! Probably so. I like order, I suppose, and because I see order as a reason and a design behind it, I mentally put that construct together as "God." I see God as order, reason, purpose, and design. I feel that logically if I ask the questions that lead to God that I'll eventually find the answers to those questions. And I know that's personal, but I've been able to prove it over and over in my life for my personal experiences.

As for true* chaos, it destroys order. It's a lack of order, it's uncomfortable. It's ugly. It's stagnant and sterile. It has no life, or where there is life it destroys it. I don't see it as a positive force. It's necessary, but I think it's necessary only in that it can point us to order and perfection.


*Meh, I know that's up for debate. But it's hard to describe it, too. Chaos is harder to describe than order for me, because even some things that appear chaotic on the outset might have purpose behind them in the long run - and sometimes what we think is chaotic really turns out to be good in the long run (we just can't see it at the time).

 

[Quinlan]

Wow this has been very interesting Arby, got to go catch my train.

Lots to think about.

I keep picturing a pen line, straight and ordered, then you zoom in and see that it's edges are broken, rough, chaotic, then you some back to the line, ordered, then zoom out further to the line as a part of a scribble, disordered, then zoom out to see the scribble is the pupil of an eye in a beautiful drawing, ordered.

 

[arbygil]

No probs, Quinlan - besides, it's bedtime in my world!

 

[EloquentBohemian]

NO!! Don't go to bed!! This was getting real good!!

Jeez, now what am I gonna do...

Damn monitors! Nobody can hear me yell...

 

[gloomy-optimist]

So does that make the word god meaningless, or completely subjective?

Far from meaningless, but quite subjective. That's the difference between science and spirituality -- if God wasn't subjective, then it probably would be meaningless.

 

[arbygil]

Lol! There's always time, EB! Pleeeenty of time.

I keep picturing a pen line, straight and ordered, then you zoom in and see that it's edges are broken, rough, chaotic, then you some back to the line, ordered, then zoom out further to the line as a part of a scribble, disordered, then zoom out to see the scribble is the pupil of an eye in a beautiful drawing, ordered.

*Nod.* I think that's a beautiful and very apt way to put things. Still on topic (sorta): I love those quick motion Youtube Photoshop work, or Etch-a-Sketch drawings of faces and towns. In the beginning you have no idea what it is or what it could be. Then after a few minutes the picture suddenly starts making sense, and it's exciting to just keep watching until the entire picture comes into view.

 

[Quinlan]

Mmm, I can see your point of view in that. I just can't stop there - I continue seeing the varieties of life as special, with special meaning. If I had the ability to gaze at every atom with my naked eyes I'd probably be transfixed for hours, because I'd see fascinating nuances in each one. And I'd say, "Wow! I wonder what/Who created all of these special atoms!" because I'm weird like that. My feeling/desire/hope/belief is that it's not just survival; it's special.

I don't think that's wierd, I think it's typical of your type to look for "something more". I am satisfied and filled with a sense of wonder just by seing nature, without reading anything more into it than the obvious. I mean, I know there is a lot I don't see and know but I don't feel a need to fill that gap with a placeholder, untill I do see or know what's there. I'm content for the gaps to exist. Survival can be special, don't you think?

Lol! Probably so. I like order, I suppose, and because I see order as a reason and a design behind it, I mentally put that construct together as "God." I see God as order, reason, purpose, and design. I feel that logically if I ask the questions that lead to God that I'll eventually find the answers to those questions. And I know that's personal, but I've been able to prove it over and over in my life for my personal experiences.

As for true* chaos, it destroys order. It's a lack of order, it's uncomfortable. It's ugly. It's stagnant and sterile. It has no life, or where there is life it destroys it. I don't see it as a positive force. It's necessary, but I think it's necessary only in that it can point us to order and perfection.


*Meh, I know that's up for debate. But it's hard to describe it, too. Chaos is harder to describe than order for me, because even some things that appear chaotic on the outset might have purpose behind them in the long run - and sometimes what we think is chaotic really turns out to be good in the long run (we just can't see it at the time).

I suppose balance is important, I like and need order as a human but I also find chaos to be excitng and beautiful. A still pond becomes stagnant without being stirred up often enough. Too much order can be dull, repetitive, stagnant, restrictive, too predictable, a bit of randomness and chaos is the spice of life.

I suppose we couldn't survive without a certain amount of both.

 

[PoetOfDreams]

Hmmm I guess I would like to enter in this conversation.

Let's say that something "out" there is the whole balance of humanity. Something out there "have" to make good and bad people. If not then all human are the same and there would be no good or evil on this earth. Maybe it is just our "nature" that we are born to be good or evil. But, the entity of evil and good can't be found. (Like a god or a devil) Sure, you can find the actions and the motives of the good/evil. But, it is hard to pinpoint who implanted those motives. So, there is no prove that there is creation of good and evil. It is just there. Ok, I am not making sense.

 

[Duty]

Hmmm I guess I would like to enter in this conversation.

Let's say that something "out" there is the whole balance of humanity. Something out there "have" to make good and bad people. If not then all human are the same and there would be no good or evil on this earth. Maybe it is just our "nature" that we are born to be good or evil. But, the entity of evil and good can't be found. (Like a god or a devil) Sure, you can find the actions and the motives of the good/evil. But, it is hard to pinpoint who implanted those motives. So, there is no prove that there is creation of good and evil. It is just there. Ok, I am not making sense.

I can't say I understand your argument at all. Could you perhaps explain more clearly?