Five Values

John K said:
Depends how we look at five. The Quincunx is a most important symbol, and is highly symmetrical - which is very appropriate for something that signifies the resolution of opposites into an integrated and centred wholeness.

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So we could arrange the four classical elements into a Quincunx, centred on an integrating wholeness, and associate values with what each element represents. This is illustrative of course, and I'm sure different people would see different associations, contrasts and symmetries:
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We should do something similar with our five favourite vices as well maybe ;)
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Lol!

Perhaps there's something to what I said, or perhaps five really is just as 'symmetrical' as this indicates. Even so, we're still left with why many people have reported 'five' as a strange number of values to grapple with.

Any thoughts?
 
Deleted member 16771 said:
Lol!

Perhaps there's something to what I said, or perhaps five really is just as 'symmetrical' as this indicates. Even so, we're still left with why many people have reported 'five' as a strange number of values to grapple with.

Any thoughts?
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If I had to make a guess, it could have something to do with how we process sets of concepts. It's relatively easy to deal with up to four related concepts at the same time within our conscious focus. As you get to six and beyond we start to break them up into four or less subgroups, or maybe deal with them one at a time and use some kind of aid such as a diagram or a writing pad to relate them together coherently.

Five sits on the boundary maybe, so we slide back and forward with a set of five concepts, sometimes grasping it as a whole, sometimes needing to split it up - these need different ways of handling it in our conscious minds and it can lead to a kind of cognitive dizziness.

Pure speculation of course!

Or maybe it's the association with pentacles

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dragulagu said:
trustworthiness, competence, and motivation

So, how is your experience in the business world on these 3 values. How much are these valued?
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It's hard to find these values together, if you do stick with that person.
Usually employers are looking just for competence, but when you prove your trustworthiness and motivation they won't let you go.

Btw this was the idea of an intj friend to make these values the criteria to join his team (I joined them last year) before that as an infj myself I used to put people who have them in the category of friends with potential future collaboration
 
Deleted member 16771 said:
Lol!

Perhaps there's something to what I said, or perhaps five really is just as 'symmetrical' as this indicates. Even so, we're still left with why many people have reported 'five' as a strange number of values to grapple with.

Any thoughts?
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We have 5 fingers on each hand, and 5 main senses.
Also I wanna add that 5 is a mystical number in Islamic culture (5 prayers, 5pilars ...)
 
Ren said:
What do you mean?
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That in a playing field such as business or even international relations, there's always something cunning about someone competent. Usually, the more cunning they are, the more competent they are. One can also be competent without being cunning but in a complex field that often requires an arsenal of tactics, there is always that unmistakeable edge. Like minds tend to trust each other, and so I think trustworthiness in such a field is earned via cunning competence exactly. It takes a specific skill set to achieve goals throughout politics, bureaucracy, and money talk. Dragu was asking how the value set of motivation, trustworthiness, and competence were valued in that scenario. Though he wasn't asking me, I think it's something like an it takes one to know one experience. I think I'm running around in circles, but I'm thinking Harvey Spectre.
 
mintoots said:
Usually, the more cunning they are, the more competent they are.
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I find that extremely untrue from my experience, lol.

Certainly competent people can be cunning, but thoroughly incompetent people can be as well. Which often leads cunning incompetent people to better positions than non-cunning competent people.
 
Ren said:
I find that extremely untrue from my experience, lol.

Certainly competent people can be cunning, but thoroughly incompetent people can be as well. Which often leads cunning incompetent people to better positions than non-cunning competent people.
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Lol yeah, that's also true. I was thinking of my boss as I was typing my response to you. :sweatsmile:

Though the accomplishments of that kind of cunning are very limited. They always crack at one point. More than that, they think they're great but I doubt they feel truly confident within themselves. The truly competent can always sniff them out. The line is usually drawn around the willingness to learn.
 
Being cunning is just one tool at your disposal. If someone is more cunning than you, they will win on that ground.
There are many pathways to victory though. The more potential you see in yourself and work you do on all grounds the better off you'll be.
Skill does recognize skill too though, for sure.

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Wyote said:
There are many pathways to victory though. The more potential you see in yourself and work you do on all grounds the better off you'll be.
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Lately, I've also been learning that victory isn't always in the goal itself. Often, victory is planted along the journey and the process. I find myself feeling mightily won even when I have lost once I look back at the process and see growth. Any stimulus after that which discredits the value of the journey, I try to reframe my mind to see it as an alternative pathway, or yet another path to take. This is only true if the process was sincerely dedicated and correct. If it is proven wrong, I must learn to understand why and appreciate the risk taken. There are tiny victories inlaid in the process by virtue of tiny growths acquired. Sifting those out aids the coping mechanism to the feeling of loss. Then the loss itself isn't entirely futile. Everything else that gets sifted out must be learned from, grieved for, and accepted. If the process is wrong and victory is acquired nonetheless, there is something unsettling about it.
 
Tossicita said:
It's hard to find these values together, if you do stick with that person.
Usually employers are looking just for competence, but when you prove your trustworthiness and motivation they won't let you go.

Btw this was the idea of an intj friend to make these values the criteria to join his team (I joined them last year) before that as an infj myself I used to put people who have them in the category of friends with potential future collaboration
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I'm more negatively biased on this side to be honest. For smaller businesses these values tend to have a stronger impact than within large companies. And unless you make yourself irreplaceable,
there is always a chance that you'd be let go. On that scale, it's resource management, and you are a (human) resource.
Companies look for people that fit within their company culture, along with the right competence of course. And these values are proper values to have in either case which fit within any culture.

mintoots said:
I suspect trustworthiness is a cunning game in that scenario, which would prove competence.
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That depends on the level and scale you have to implement them. Within management levels you need to, on some degree, play the cunning game and build trustful relationships, set proper boundaries, goals etc.

From personal experience, I work within a company of 5000+ people, all structured within a gigantic web of bureaucratic entanglements within separate teams / departments / ... . It's a prime example of how a business is also required to function on a base of relationships and communication (imagine it being a small village, essentially). So the cunning game works there, but in some degree it also dislocates the trust game within departments. Nevertheless, it's there. I've worked for smaller companies as well (business of 4, mid size (200+)) and enough years as a consultant. The value of trustworthiness is measured in different ways.
 
dragulagu said:
I've worked for smaller companies as well (business of 4, mid size (200+)) and enough years as a consultant. The value of trustworthiness is measured in different ways.
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What would you say brings you the most satisfaction, based on your experience?

1) Working for a large company
2) Working for an SME
3) Working as a consultant
 
Ren said:
What would you say brings you the most satisfaction, based on your experience?

1) Working for a large company
2) Working for an SME
3) Working as a consultant
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I'd say SME then. All have their benefits somewhere.

1) (current) mainly Job Stability, but it is the most boring job type I'd say. There is not that much potential for immediate growth as you have to slouch through countless procedures (with everything there, honestly).
If you do your tasks as expected it's an easy or rather comfortable position to be in, so I can't complain on that.
2) Enough variability in tasks, not the best pay but the most fun, progressive. But a lot depends on how the enterprise itself is developing, in comparison with large enterprises that have stronger financial backing.
You are unsure what executive decisions could turn into over the company or the employees. If you're in a rapidly growing SME though, that's ideal.
3) Most exciting, you get an average of 1-2 years per project (sometimes shorter) where you get dropped in a completely new environment. But the catch here is that you don't always have the freedom
to chose which projects you will be on. And you can always expect an initial starting phase of being dropped in a situation where shit has hit the fan (at least, for Test consultancy). So, some stress resistance is required. I
do miss these times though. The projects I did were mostly at large companies.

So if I'd change to another enterprise, which I'm getting to this point now (thanks covid for slowing that one down though..), it would be a SME again, around 50-200, within a field of interest.
 
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