God and MBTI

[John K]

Haha. No, its that I think there is danger in putting people second in such a philosophy/system. I understand that a concept of 'perfect goodness' etc. is unattainalbe for any human, so see no problem with an ideal being something to aim at only, but to say God is inherently superior and omnipotent etc. makes him out to be a 'being' rather than a concept and bring with it all kinds of issues imo in how we live our lives. It makes the faith something outside of human experience (supernatural) and I'm not comfortable with that. It plays into people putting their 'relationship with God' above that of humans. That's messed up imo. It seems more self-serving to me. Like a drug they are on, which puts humans in a poor second place.

This isn't a position I could take myself for a number of reasons, though I can see your philosophical viewpoint.

Chewing it over ....

I think it's important to note that history is littered with the remains of ideas that made humans the centre or the apex of the universe only to find that we aren't. At one time we thought the earth was at the centre and everything else revolved around it. But the we found that we are on just a planet, one of the smaller ones, revolving round the sun, and that the sun was a fairly mediocre one amongst countless trillions of others. We thought that the world was created just for people a few thousand years ago, but it was created billions of years ago and people have only been around for a fleeting instant of that time. It's very likely that if there is intelligent life elsewhere in the universe, at least some of it surpasses us in intelligence as much as we surpass the fish in the sea. We could well turn out to be fairly low down the evolutionary scale compared with such as those. There is nothing written into the fabric of space time that says we are apex, and it seems pretty safe to assume we are not.

We live at a time where everyday philosophy is still rooted in the now discredited materialistic viewpoint from the late 19th Century. That seems to put consciousness in the position of an epiphenomenon or even as illusory. It seems to me far more likely that consciousness is as much part of the fabric of the universe as electromagnetism, and it isn't hard from there to imagine the possibility that the universe is in some sense alive. Clearly life is a feature of our world, which seems to be remarkably well tuned to support it in the right circumstances. We humans are clearly embedded in that context, and are certainly not in some sense superior to it.

Another concern I have is that an acceptance of the existence of God is not just a matter of philosophical or ethical choice for most people. I can certainly see it is for you, and that's OK, but that isn't the way most folks would approach it - for most it's a matter of credibility instead. For some of us it is a matter of experience, not belief, and to reject it would be equivalent to rejecting what we can in a sense see.

Yet another angle. I feel that the way you think about it needs to be handled very carefully because it's a position that can lead to the sort of problem Galileo had with the Catholic Church of his day - they objected to his scientific conclusions because they were not consistent with the Church's philosophy. It's normally religious dogma rejecting ideas such as evolution that manifests this problem, but any philosophical framework can fall into this sort of trap. It's a nice thought (Divine justice ?) that a secular philosophy could reject religious experience in exactly the same way LOL.

Thanks for the discussion by the way - the questions you raise are often very thought provoking.

 

[April]

Another aspect of this is the idea that we are small and God is bigger/infinite/omniscient. To me that is dangerous, because all we know for sure is that we are alone on Earth. Why do religious people tend to look at it this way? Another way people can waste their lives.

Well, you should consider that there is nothing wrong with looking at it that way. Some people find joy in it. I understand if you don't, but saying it's a waste of life to look at it this way is just arrogant to me, because you're again, implying that what you see to be true is true for everyone. That's just... not true. Lol.

If a person finds joy and fulfillment from seeing God as external (although tbh... external is not necessarily how I would put this... because to me, God or the Universe is both internal and external... as in... it's bigger than me, but it's inside me too... it's a very personal thing so it's very hard to describe) and bigger than them then who are you to say that it's a waste of their lives? It isn't, not to them.

Just my two cents lol. Ponder it or dismiss it.

 

[David Nelson]

How is it dangerous to acknowledge things greater than oneself? Fragile ego injury?

Humanity is greater than you. The earth is bigger than you. The Sun makes the earth look like a grain of rice. The solar system makes the sun look like a speck of dust. The galaxy makes the solar system look like nothing. The universe makes our galaxy virtually invisible. The universe is literally as virtually nothing next to God.

I think it's dangerous to have an inflated view of oneself. It's like ontological dunning Kruger on epileptic steroids.

Because as far as we know, we are the most amazing creation of intelligent life in the universe. Of course we are tiny relative to most things in the universe, but I was talking about the concept of a God which directly impacts on how we view ourselves. This can impact how people treat each other, and that’s the point. People used to sacrifice people for their God(s). In less extreme ways I think some deluded religious people put ‘God’ above people. That’s the point I was making.

 

[April]

This isn't a position I could take myself for a number of reasons, though I can see your philosophical viewpoint.

Chewing it over ....

I think it's important to note that history is littered with the remains of ideas that made humans the centre or the apex of the universe only to find that we aren't. At one time we thought the earth was at the centre and everything else revolved around it. But the we found that we are on just a planet, one of the smaller ones, revolving round the sun, and that the sun was a fairly mediocre one amongst countless trillions of others. We thought that the world was created just for people a few thousand years ago, but it was created billions of years ago and people have only been around for a fleeting instant of that time. It's very likely that if there is intelligent life elsewhere in the universe, at least some of it surpasses us in intelligence as much as we surpass the fish in the sea. We could well turn out to be fairly low down the evolutionary scale compared with such as those. There is nothing written into the fabric of space time that says we are apex, and it seems pretty safe to assume we are not.

We live at a time where everyday philosophy is still rooted in the now discredited materialistic viewpoint from the late 19th Century. That seems to put consciousness in the position of an epiphenomenon or even as illusory. It seems to me far more likely that consciousness is as much part of the fabric of the universe as electromagnetism, and it isn't hard from there to imagine the possibility that the universe is in some sense alive. Clearly life is a feature of our world, which seems to be remarkably well tuned to support it in the right circumstances. We humans are clearly embedded in that context, and are certainly not in some sense superior to it.

Another concern I have is that an acceptance of the existence of God is not just a matter of philosophical or ethical choice for most people. I can certainly see it is for you, and that's OK, but that isn't the way most folks would approach it - for most it's a matter of credibility instead. For some of us it is a matter of experience, not belief, and to reject it would be equivalent to rejecting what we can in a sense see.

Yet another angle. I feel that the way you think about it needs to be handled very carefully because it's a position that can lead to the sort of problem Galileo had with the Catholic Church of his day - they objected to his scientific conclusions because they were not consistent with the Church's philosophy. It's normally religious dogma rejecting ideas such as evolution that manifests this problem, but any philosophical framework can fall into this sort of trap. It's a nice thought (Divine justice ?) that a secular philosophy could reject religious experience in exactly the same way LOL.

Thanks for the discussion by the way - the questions you raise are often very thought provoking.

My thoughts too... just far more eloquently put. I like this discussion too! It does make one chew on the subject and now my thoughts are directed toward deism, pandeism, pantheism and panentheism... and other views related. Which is always a fun thing to chew on since I don't know what I believe as a whole. I take aspects from all of these things but as far as what I perceive God, the Universe, and myself/other humans to be, I just haven't fully reached an understanding on it all yet. I mean I have a broad and general thought on it all but it isn't set in stone or anything. That's why I love discussions like this!

 

[David Nelson]

Well, you should consider that there is nothing wrong with looking at it that way. Some people find joy in it. I understand if you don't, but saying it's a waste of life to look at it this way is just arrogant to me, because you're again, implying that what you see to be true is true for everyone. That's just... not true. Lol.

If a person finds joy and fulfillment from seeing God as external (although tbh... external is not necessarily how I would put this... because to me, God or the Universe is both internal and external... as in... it's bigger than me, but it's inside me too... it's a very personal thing so it's very hard to describe) and bigger than them then who are you to say that it's a waste of their lives? It isn't, not to them.

Just my two cents lol. Ponder it or dismiss it.

I think subjectivity is overplayed. What I mean by this is that while m every experience we have is subjective, we are foolish to dismiss the usefulness of objective truths. To me those who have a relationship with God which sees humans as inferior is actually unhealthy because it means they see themselves as inferior. I agree with Nietzsche on this. There is no evidence for anything other than us in this world which has intelligence etc. You can imagine a spirit world if you like, but you wouldn’t survive long if you relied on that to live by. Believe in humanity because that is all we have. That’s all I am really saying. The concept of god has diminished over time (the God of the gaps). Believe in love, truth, kindness and beauty. It’s not about wanting to be the best or biggest thing, it’s an acknowledgment that we are the most incredible thing that we know that exists (in terms of complexity) and we have created the most incredible technology and artistic works etc. There is God in what we do if you like.

 

[April]

Because as far as we know, we are the most amazing creation of intelligent life in the universe. Of course we are tiny relative to most things in the universe, but I was talking about the concept of a God which directly impacts on how we view ourselves. This can impact how people treat each other, and that’s the point. People used to sacrifice people for their God(s). In less extreme ways I think some deluded religious people put ‘God’ above people. That’s the point I was making.

That makes more sense, I'm glad you clarified but... those who put God above people usually follow the principles of said God... which in this day and age does not usually include treating them badly or sacrifices - notice the emphasis on "usually" lol. I can see what you mean, but people will be people, and some usually do go to crazy extremes.

I find it personally distasteful that one would consider themselves equal with or over a God. I can think pretty highly of myself at times don't get me wrong! Haha. But this is only my opinion and it doesn't bother me that others might disagree. Like I said, to each their own.

 

[April]

I think subjectivity is overplayed. What I mean by this is that while m every experience we have is subjective, we are foolish to dismiss the usefulness of objective truths. To me those who have a relationship with God which sees humans as inferior is actually unhealthy because it means they see themselves as inferior. I agree with Nietzsche on this. There is no evidence for anything other than us in this world which has intelligence etc. You can imagine a spirit world if you like, but you wouldn’t survive long if you relied on that to live by. Believe in humanity because that is all we have. That’s all I am really saying. The concept of god has diminished over time (the God of the gaps). Believe in love, truth, kindness and beauty. It’s not about wanting to be the best or biggest thing, it’s an acknowledgment that we are the most incredible thing that we know that exists (in terms of complexity) and we have created the most incredible technology and artistic works etc. There is God in what we do if you like.

Hmm. I see. I like what you're saying here and it makes one think. Even if I don't wholeheartedly agree with the concept as a whole... I do agree with some of the things you said. I really enjoy how you described it.

But one more thought. Just so you can see how some (like me) can feel about being "less" than God. It's simply this... It doesn't feel like "less" at all! Even though I believe I am inferior to God... I don't feel inferior. I feel empowered in that humility. Empowered through knowing that I am not like God and actually... I am rather empowered to know God is within me.. sorta. Idk... its so intangible and very hard to explain. I feel like I "get it" on a level that many don't. But I cant properly explain it! That's rather high and mighty of myself, isn't it? Lol!

All this and I don't even know what I fully believe regarding God! But discussions like this help... and finding where I stand in these debates does help me carve out my own little path to knowing what it all means for myself. I appreciate it, so thanks!

 

[David Nelson]

It’s not an easy subject to think about or explain. I personally think the whole God concept is simply the problem of an intelligent being coming to terms with their own existence. It raise unanswerable questions which even atheists can’t answer. Even religion also has no real answers for. Anyone who thinks they have all the answers is deluded, religious or otherwise. We will likely always be in the dark about many things about the universe and our place in it and consciousness. It’s mind blowing in it’s complexity and deep mystery. I find it interesting but not worth dwelling on, as there are no answers to many questions. This is one problem with the God concept: it is clearly anthropomorphic in nature and not sufficient to answer all our questions.

 

[April]

Anyone who thinks they have all the answers is deluded, religious or otherwise. We will likely always be in the dark about many things about the universe and our place in it and consciousness. It’s mind blowing in it’s complexity and deep mystery.

I like this part so much that one simple GIF will not do.
I need to prepare...
Ahem!
*cracks knuckles*
*gets GIF gun out and cocks it*

PEWPEWPEW!

Ok ok that's enough... before the admins kick me out for either too many GIFS... or for being way too dorky.

 

[Matty]

Because as far as we know, we are the most amazing creation of intelligent life in the universe. Of course we are tiny relative to most things in the universe, but I was talking about the concept of a God which directly impacts on how we view ourselves. This can impact how people treat each other, and that’s the point. People used to sacrifice people for their God(s). In less extreme ways I think some deluded religious people put ‘God’ above people. That’s the point I was making.

Every culture has false deities. The Germans thought they themselves were amazing, and sacrificed half a continent. Women in America think their careers and finances are amazing, and over 60 million fetuses have been sacrificed to the socioeconomic deity. People deify oil, gas, money, the climate, equality, etc, and happily sacrifice others for them.

I think it's less dangerous when someone believes in the creator, and that there awaits eternal punishment for those who kill their fellow creations.

 

[Jonah Caan]

I think there is great danger in worshipping an external God, since it can cause us to devalue or disengage from reality, which is all we humans experience. History has shown this to be very true.

Sorry I might be going off on a tangent here but from my experience of observing people throughout my life, I believe humans have an intrinsic need for a 'god'. Everyone has a 'god' they worship. For some it's supernatural beings, for others it's their own ego, a celebrity, a football team, an artist, a drug, alcohol, their other-half... the list goes on.

For me it is the Uncaused Cause, The Creator who created all that is. But this God is not only external, He is Omnipresent, The One, The Only. I think most people who believe in a God/gods ultimately feel the presence of this Being, even Atheists - there's a nagging feeling deep down that they can't quite put their finger on. I feel that's why some think more about the concept of God more than even most religious people; their soul is seeking something they can't find with their being.

I believe that when us INFJs retreat to be by and with ourselves, our bodies are more in touch with our souls. And since our souls emanate from God, the ultimate Truth, we have a clearer sense of reality and this is part of what makes up our sixth sense of Intuition.