God is a sexist, homophobic, proslavery, sadistic, murderer

[sriv]

In both these passage homosexuality is equated with drunkenness, greed, murder, gossip, and, among other things, disobedience to parents!! Everything in these lists is considered a sin. That sin being defined as anything that goes against the character and nature of God, homosexuality merely being one item on the list. Yes, it is considered a sin. I would not, however, say that God is afraid of them, nor would I say that I am. For that matter, I've met several homosexuals of both sexes and neither treat nor do I support the mistreatment of homosexuals. I tend to avoid lesbians, however, b/c they misunderstand what is apparently a caring nature in me . . . it's been awkward (I won't say anymore on that subject-I think you can guess why)! I think I may have said this somewhere before, but I would sooner go to a gay parade than be the guy on the sidewalk protesting the gay parade. Love the sinner, hate the sin. It's a total cliche, but that's how I believe the bible should be interpreted.

Homophobic can also mean "prejudiced against homosexuals". "Love the sinner, hate the sin." Apparently, God doesn't love the sinner. He sends the sinners to hell.

The old testament, as stated before, is there to remind us of what life is like when we try to seek redemption through our own means. The Jewish people were stubborn and resistant to God. They didn't understand what you would call "lovey-dovey" religion. If you look at the culture and technology (or lack) at the time, you can understand a little bit why. In order to keep the Jewish nation from losing their faith and heritage, it was necessary to severely punish and even kill those who went against the law of God. Sounds a little like Hitler, huh? But it wasn't merely homosexuals who were stoned. Exodus and Leviticus have most of those passages. A man could be stone for not killing an ox he owned who had gored someone to death. You could be stoned if you were a "medium (well, certainly God would have issues with someone involved in what would be considered the devils work-it is done for any traitor even today!!)". The punishment of God was not exclusive to homosexuals.

The statement is that God is a homophobe. He is prejudiced against homosexuals for the sole reason that they are homosexual. I am pretty sure the Bible defines homosexuality as a sin in and of itself. The question and concern is whether a pious and virtuous homosexual should go to hell.

I cannot find anything in the new testament that would support the putting to death of homosexuals today. The new testament is like the "windows for dummies" book: it explains the why's and whatnots' of the old testament. Meant for a time when men began to ask questions, question authority, and authorize social changes. It was the perfect time for a change in covenant, when the Romans took over and worldviews began to crumble or evolve . . .

"putting to death" never came into question. Whether they go to hell or not comes into question. The judgement of humans will always be flawed, so God authorized us not to bring about judgement and took the responsibility himself. I find it amusing that you are downplaying the credibility of the Bible this early. Usually, that only happens when it is directly called into question by the nonbeliever.

Does this help at all? I'm a bit distracted today with sewing dilemnas (sp?). I think your problem with God, if I may, dwells more on what you consider to be ungodly on his part, or, perhaps, inhumane? Unjust, even?

It does seem a little roundabout, but good content. Of course, Satya is questioning and doubting God's rightousness.

 

[Satya]

Does this help at all? I'm a bit distracted today with sewing dilemnas (sp?). I think your problem with God, if I may, dwells more on what you consider to be ungodly on his part, or, perhaps, inhumane? Unjust, even?

As I said before, I am just trying to understand the rational of those who would worship a God who at one point asked his believers to put homosexuals to death. As far as the New Testament on homosexuality, it says nothing. It makes a few referrals back to the Old Testament, but for all the argument that is made against homosexual rights, marriage, and adoption, JC never said anything about homosexuality. All the Christian born prejudice and hatred for homosexuality holds its place in the Old Testament. And while many Christians have no problem interpreting many of the other aspects of the Old Testament as relevant to the times and culture, they have no problem sticking to the old condemnation of homosexuality. I do find that to be rather interesting, but your posts are helping me to understand the Christian rational, whereas most would get offended by my direct and unapologetic examination of their religious beliefs.

After all, it seems strange when you consider some of the other sins in the Bible that god demanded people be put to death for...

Leviticus 20:10
If a man commits adultery with the wife of his neighbor, both the adulterer and the adulteress shall be put to death.

Well there goes anyone who commits adultery.

Deut 21:18-21
If someone has a stubborn and rebellious son who will not obey his father and mother, who does not heed them when they discipline him, then his father and his mother shall take hold of him and bring him out to the elders of his town at the gate of that place. They shall say to the elders of his town, ‘This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious. He will not obey us. He is a glutton and a drunkard.’ Then all the men of the town shall stone him to death. So you shall purge the evil from your midst; and all Israel will hear, and be afraid.

There goes rebellious teenagers.

Exodus 35:2
For six days, work is to be done, but the seventh day shall be your holy day, a Sabbath of rest to the LORD. Whoever does any work on it must be put to death.

There goes anyone who works on a Sunday.

And yet I don't find anywhere near as much condemnation of adulterers, rebellious teenagers, and Sabbath scabs as I do of homosexuality. And it concerns me, because there are no nonreligious arguments to be made against homosexuality. Even NARTH bases all its arguments on its belief that God had a specific role in mind for males and females. I've traced all of the oppression and discrimination that homosexuals and bisexuals face in this nation to just the Old Testament.

It definitely makes you wonder why Christians can so easily pick and choose what they follow in the Bible.

 

[Kwistalline]

It definitely makes you wonder why Christians can so easily pick and choose what they follow in the Bible.

. . . it also makes me wonder if I do the same thing. No one is perfectly consistent. There are plenty of Christians and Christianized people out there who are jaded by the opinions of others. I was taught, believe, and teach others to base their beliefs soley on the bible. The opinions of others assist to clarify areas we don't understand, but . . . I couldn't do it the Catholic way, blindly believing the priest "b/c he said so"

As I understand the bible, homosexuals are sinners, like anyone else. They should be treated as such, equal to other sinners. Loved like other sinners, etc. I think you get my point, having sorta stated it a little yourself . . .

 

[sriv]

"putting to death" never came into question.

Whoops, that's what Satya was asking about.

 

[Kwistalline]

"putting to death" never came into question.

Whoops, that's what Satya was asking about.

No worries, I figured it'd clear up at some point, anyway!

 

[sriv]

No worries, I figured it'd clear up at some point, anyway!

Thanks.

As I understand the bible, homosexuals are sinners, like anyone else. They should be treated as such, equal to other sinners. Loved like other sinners, etc. I think you get my point, having sorta stated it a little yourself . . .

Why? What is the reason?

Are they lesser beings?

 

[Satya]

You were right sriv (about what I meant about homophobia), but this thread is more about all these attributes that God held, that nowadays we would consider abominations. I'm just trying to understand why Christians would worship such a God and Kwistalline is doing a good job.

It definitely makes you wonder why Christians can so easily pick and choose what they follow in the Bible.

. . . it also makes me wonder if I do the same thing. No one is perfectly consistent. There are plenty of Christians and Christianized people out there who are jaded by the opinions of others. I was taught, believe, and teach others to base their beliefs soley on the bible. The opinions of others assist to clarify areas we don't understand, but . . . I couldn't do it the Catholic way, blindly believing the priest "b/c he said so"

As I understand the bible, homosexuals are sinners, like anyone else. They should be treated as such, equal to other sinners. Loved like other sinners, etc. I think you get my point, having sorta stated it a little yourself . . .

Well I tend to believe that all sins are equal in the eyes of God and I think it is God's position that sins are justified when they aren't our choice. For example, if a person has to kill another person to protect his friends and family, then he is a murderer, but God will forgive him. After all, if that weren't true, then all our soldiers would probably be going to hell. If a person is born gay or bisexual and they fall in love with someone of the same sex, then God will forgive them, because nobody chooses who they are attracted to or who they fall in love with. But that is probably a discussion for another thread.

How about we go on to slavery?

A few things God commands regarding slaverly...

Slaves are to be circumcised - Genesis chapter 17, verse 12
Slaves can eat at Passover if they are circumcised - Exodus chapter 12 verse 43
Slaves are to be set free after seven years (but not their children) - Exodus Chapter 21, verse 1
Slaves are property and can be beaten, but not killed - Exodus Chapter 21, verse 20
Slaves are worth 30 shekels of silver - Exodus Chapter 21, verse 32
Children of slaves are slaves themselves - Leviticus Chapter 22, verse 10
Slaves are property to be bought, sold, and handed down - Leviticus Chapter 25, verse 44
Slaves must submit to their masters - Colossians, chapter 3, verse 22 and Titus, chapter 2 verse 9

Perhaps those Confederates and John Wilkes Booth were right when they argued that slavery is sanctioned in the Bible and it is immoral to abolish it because it is God's will. Clearly God set down the laws to govern slavery. He established that slaves were property, when they could go free, how much they were worth, how they were to be treated, and even how they should behave.

So why do people worship a God who advocated slavery?

 

[Shai Gar]

You have a point, but everything has context. BTW, why selectively choose the old testament? As a Christian, I consider that to be the old covenant (which I realize isn't answering the question). Of course, that brings up other issues, and I'd rather you asked than I offered to prevent me from getting on the proverbial soapbox . . .

When God says, " I permit no woman to teach or to have authority over men; she is to keep silent" in 1 Timothy Chapter 2, what would be the context? :? Certainly doesn't sound like God wants you anywhere near a soapbox. :lol:

There is contradiction in the New Testament as well, but I figure I ought to first hear the justification for why Christians are still holding on to that pesky Old Testament version of God.

Or we could just accept that the books of the bible were written by imperfect men who aimed to communicate thier limited understanding of God.

Shush! The Bible is the infallible word of God unbeliever!

I love that quote from the bible. Whenever religious women get uppity with me I say it to smack them down.

 

[Shai Gar]

Is it sexist for a man to open the door for a woman? They certainly don't do so for other men! Is it sexist that the man is expected to buy flowers and dinner while on a date?

I most certainly do hold open doors for men, and women... I hold the door open for everyone if it's not going to hold me up terribly.

As for buying dinner... I prefer it when the ladies buy dinner for themselves because it saves me money. I also buy dinners for guys as well as have them bought for me. I don't buy flowers though, they seem to be a metaphor for the ephemerality of love (fresh one day and beautiful, withering the next, dead the day after... even with water)

 

[Elizabeth]

Excellent post Elizabeth. First off, I get what you are saying about it "being treated as a rule book" and "taken out of the context of its time" but it's clear that not all Christians feel that way considering how many have utilized the text by saying things like, "I'm right because it says so in the Bible." I find their rational to be fascinating. People love to use a sexist, homophobic, proslavery, sadistic, murdering God to justify their own sexism, homophobia, enslavement, sadism, and murder. The God of the old testament allows Christians to pass judgment on other people through a perfect divine being, regardless of time or context. And if they are ever confronted then they can argue the New Testament where they have the rainbows and love dovey version of God with wise sayings like, "Love thy neighbor" and "Judge not ye be judged".

But hey...I'm a product of my time and place, just as Paul and Timothy were products of theirs. That doesn't make me wrong and them right, nor does it make them wrong and me right. We just are who we are.

I find Catholics treat Paul's word as the infallible word of God.

It sounds like you're in a place (a school, college, community, maybe?) where a lot of very judgmental religious people congregate. That's no fun, no matter what side of the spectrum they're on.

The Catholics I know, even the more conservative/traditional ones, tend not to be so literalist. What's more, the women, even those who can rattle off a hundred reasons Why Women Can Never Be Ordained without missing a beat, do not shy away from other positions of authority in their churches. Sorry, Paul!

 

[Elizabeth]

I have to admit, though, the huge skirts sometimes have their appeal. Did you get to keep any of the clothes? Can I borrow them (just kidding, wrong century)?!

I did get to keep the dress, because my cousin, a gifted seamstress, made it for me.

Sure you can borrow it! It may be a little long on you, though, as I'm quite tall.

 

[Satya]

It sounds like you're in a place (a school, college, community, maybe?) where a lot of very judgmental religious people congregate. That's no fun, no matter what side of the spectrum they're on.

Yes. Although where I am from, it's the LDS that outnumber everyone else.

 

[Shai Gar]

I have to admit, though, the huge skirts sometimes have their appeal. Did you get to keep any of the clothes? Can I borrow them (just kidding, wrong century)?!

I did get to keep the dress, because my cousin, a gifted seamstress, made it for me.

Sure you can borrow it! It may be a little long on you, though, as I'm quite tall.

How tall?

 

[Elizabeth]

5' 9"

 

[Shai Gar]

5' 9"

Yowsers, I'm only 5'8"

 

[Satya]

What happened to my thread! :shock:

 

[Kwistalline]

All right, people, back on topic!! As much as I'd like to spend my time amusing myself with superfluous remarks, Satya posted this thread for a specific reason.

"God is . . .proslavery". God never states "I love/promote slavery". He merely allowed it. Just as he has allowed other things most Christians today would tend to believe are unbiblical. A wise man once told me that biblical examples are not the same as bibilical commands. One of them being King David and King Solomon and their several wives/hundreds of concubines. God never denounces polygamy, in fact, he doesn't really say anything on that matter except in I timothy with regards to Overseers and Deacons, and how they must only have one wife. So here's what I'm going to do. I'll quote ya back some on slavery after I give you this example on Divorce.

"I hate Divorce, says the Lord God of Israel (Malachi 2:16)". Wait a minute, he allowed the Isrealites permission to divorce (Deuteronomy 24:1) "When a man takes a wife and marries her, and it happens that she finds no favor in his eyes because he has found some indecency in her, and he writes her a certificate of divorce and puts it in her hand and sends her out from his house".

First in Deuteronomy God gives the ok for divorce. Centuries later in Malachi he states he hates divorce. What happened? Did God change his mind? I think that Matthew 19 better explains it. The pharisees ask a question about the lawfulness of divorce, "They said to Him, "Why then did Moses command to GIVE HER A CERTIFICATE OF DIVORCE AND SEND her AWAY?" He said to them, "Because of your hardness of heart Moses permitted you to divorce your wives; but from the beginning it has not been this way. And I say to you, whoever divorces his wife, except for immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery." Matthew 19 is more extensive than this, but I encourage you to read it for yourself. Moses is being state here as allowing them to divorce, but he would not have been able to do so without God's permission (I don't think you need any examples of what happens to people when they misinterpret or add to God's word/do not obey him!!).

Now where slavery is concerned, context is king. Take these examples:

Gen 43:18-rest of chapter would seem to imply that slavery was a socially recognized and accepted punishment for theft "It is because of the money that was returned in our sacks the first time that we are being brought in, that he may seek occasion against us and fall upon us, and take us for slaves with our donkeys." "Why should we die before your eyes, both we and our land? Buy us and our land for food, and we and our land will be slaves to Pharaoh". Though I would argue that any indiscretion or law-breaking would have justified the making of or offering of the self to a life/allotted time of servitude.

2 Kings 4:1 "Now a certain woman of the wives of the sons of the prophets cried out to Elisha, "Your servant my husband is dead, and you know that your servant feared the LORD; and the creditor has come to take my two children to be his slaves"

This last verse from 2 Kings definitely implies that slavery is a form of paying off a debt, which some would agree was the more common form of slavery accepted at that time.

But then their was the indentured slave, bought from birth to serve throughout his lifetime with no hope for freedom. All I can offer you from the NT are passages that instruct a slave on how to serve his master in a Christian manner. I can expound upon the reasons I believe Paul gave advice for how to serve as a slave, but I won't do so now. I have to work tonight (I do night shift and I love it!!), for one, and second, it would take too long. Best to make replies shorter in order to get the most out of a response, IMO. Otherwise people get bored with the mini-books.

I can't give you much else besides my personal opinion. I do not believe God promoted slavery. Sure, he allowed it, but if he was, indeed, proslavery, than it can also be argued that he was pro-divorce and pro-polygamy. But he never says either way whether he is for or against it. There are merely examples of him allowing it to exist, which are not the same as commands for their existence.

So, Satya, you're either in Utah-pia or Independance, MO.

 

[Kwistalline]

5' 9"

Wow. You're a good five inches taller than me . . .
Thanks about the dress, though it isn't for me!! My BFF is in the Ren'Fest, and she's 5'7. But the director has already ok'd her material and pattern (I think it's crazy he has to ok the material, but he wants everything to be period perfect).

 

[Kwistalline]

Shai, three rules on keeping flowers fresh. First, every other day or so you need to cut 1/2'' off the stem to keep make the water available to the living part of the flower (the bottom of the stem dies first-it won't absorb water and should be cut off when it gets clotted with fibrin)

Second, cut flowers ought to come with packets of flower food. Ever tried those/had your g/f or date try those? They work wonders on extending the life of cut flowers. I think they are mainly glucose.

Third and most obvious, change the water daily!!

 

[Shai Gar]

Shai, three rules on keeping flowers fresh. First, every other day or so you need to cut 1/2'' off the stem to keep make the water available to the living part of the flower (the bottom of the stem dies first-it won't absorb water and should be cut off when it gets clotted with fibrin)

Second, cut flowers ought to come with packets of flower food. Ever tried those/had your g/f or date try those? They work wonders on extending the life of cut flowers. I think they are mainly glucose.

Third and most obvious, change the water daily!!

Still dies.