Health Care Reform Defeated

[Satya]

I figured the latest update needed its own thread.

UPDATE:

It looks like the White House is dropping the 'public option' of the healthcare overhaul:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_health_care_overhaul

Kathleen Sebelius, the Secretary of Health and Human Resources, has said that "providing citizens with the option of government-run insurance isn’t essential to the Obama administration’s proposed overhaul of U.S. health care."

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=aRqy6w7DFAB0

As I do not see a not-for-profit co-op as sufficient to offer consumers choice and competition that would bring down the costs of private insurance, I think it is pretty clear that health care reform has been utterly defeated. The changes now will be superficial so that the Democrats can save face. My questions are...

Do you honestly think insurance cooperatives are sufficient to provide affordable coverage for every citizen?

Can you think of any plan better than a public option for generating the competition to force the insurance companies to run their businesses ethically?

How long do you think it will be before health care becomes a complete luxury in this country that only the rich can afford and which slowly impoverishes the middle class?

How incredibly stupid do you think America has become that it lets itself be manipulated into hysterics by the scare tactics employed by insurance companies and their lackeys in the government and media?

How come the average American is terrified of their own government but are perfectly happy with handing over their lives and welfare to private insurers?

How long will Americans accept the myth that they have the "best health care system in the world" when nearly a third of their populace in uninsured or underinsured?

 

[Blind Bandit]

I figured the latest update needed its own thread.



As I do not see a not-for-profit co-op as sufficient to offer consumers choice and competition that would bring down the costs of private insurance, I think it is pretty clear that health care reform has been utterly defeated. The changes now will be superficial so that the Democrats can save face. My questions are...

Do you honestly think insurance cooperatives are sufficient to provide affordable coverage for every citizen?

Can you think of any plan better than a public option for generating the competition to force the insurance companies to run their businesses ethically?

How long do you think it will be before health care becomes a complete luxury in this country that only the rich can afford and which slowly impoverishes the middle class?

How incredibly stupid do you think America has become that it lets itself be manipulated into hysterics by the scare tactics employed by insurance companies and their lackeys in the government and media?

How come the average American is terrified of their own government but are perfectly happy with handing over their lives and welfare to private insurers?

Companies can but won't its about greed and money.

And the reason people continue to support being raped by everyone form the government to power elite is because people are too afraid and stupid to think on there own.

I'm sick of the USA's lack of progress due to fear and stupidity.

The people will continue to be mistreated and ignored until they wake up and pressure the government to do its job.

When we realize socialism is not evil and being left wing isn't a crime then many be we can get universal health care but as of right now I knew it would be a stretch.

 

[TheLastMohican]

As much as I dislike government meddling in such industries, I was rather fond of the public option idea. It would have been a way of guaranteeing essential health care to citizens without having a government monopoly on anything, allowing the medical practitioners to continue pursuing a variety of treatments and research. It was reminiscent of Milton Friedman's negative income tax, in fact.

What we have coming to us now is a long and tedious deepening of the divide between those who lament of the evils of profit-driven medicine and those who live in fear of anything resembling the socialized variety. Without a meaningful compromise in the works, Republicans will blame the shortcomings of health care on whatever changes the Democrats manage to make, and the Democrats will increasingly see total socialization of the industry as the only way to get it back under control.

While it's true that other industrialized nations are able to provide universal health care — complete with government-employed physicians and government-funded research — at significantly lower cost than our own government is even now saddled with, I think we could do better just by cutting back the regulations we have already set up. A lot of pointless restrictions on medical practice serve to drive up the costs by complicating things. For example, the dominance of large drug companies is greatly enhanced by the requirements of the FDA, which lags on approving products that don't have enough dollars backing them up. (And we complain about the corruption that inevitably arises from this.) Ludicrous ideas like the requirements of prescriptions for regular dietary supplements (vitamins) and the criminalization of professional medical help in home births are signs of a government-industry relationship that results in increasingly narrow methods of care, requiring large sums of money for relatively simple problems that could be very easily dealt with in a free medical market.

 

[Azure_Knight]

I figured the latest update needed its own thread.

As I do not see a not-for-profit co-op as sufficient to offer consumers choice and competition that would bring down the costs of private insurance, I think it is pretty clear that health care reform has been utterly defeated. The changes now will be superficial so that the Democrats can save face. My questions are...

Do you honestly think insurance cooperatives are sufficient to provide affordable coverage for every citizen?

I don't know. I would have to research it and look over it. I'm also interested in what the public would consider to be affordable and adequate medical coverage.

Can you think of any plan better than a public option for generating the competition to force the insurance companies to run their businesses ethically?

Oversight comes to mind for insurance companies, but a plan for competition? Isn't competition what free market is driven by? Also, what would constitute ethical business practices in insurance sales?

I think that healthcare has a great number of issues to consider (including the physical and mental health of the population itself). I personally cannot separate the issue of healthcare from several considerations: social justice (and issues of morality), economics, politics, special interests (if any are involved), government, oversight and enforcement, etc. If we are talking about a plan in theory, it would be one thing. But to put it into practice is more than just the plan itself... hence the considerations that I have listed.

Although I consider healthcare to be a privilege (and not a basic human right) I find that I have great difficulty in separating my own morality and views of social justice from the equation. Even if I add those into the mix, new questions pop up.

For instance: should my views of morality or social justice be considered for public policy? Should my own views be forced onto others? I think that the answer is no. I also wonder how much each member of the forum approaches this issue in terms of social justice and morality when considering the issue. I think that more communication over such issues might reveal that we all may have very different ideas as to how these issues are dealt with.

How long do you think it will be before health care becomes a complete luxury in this country that only the rich can afford and which slowly impoverishes the middle class?

I don't know. I think rising college costs and other things will cause more strain on the middle class, though healthcare could make or break a middle class family (in the case of a death in the family).

How incredibly stupid do you think America has become that it lets itself be manipulated into hysterics by the scare tactics employed by insurance companies and their lackeys in the government and media?

I have already talked a little bit about the misinformation war that was waged on this issue. I think that both sides of the debate have used stare tactics and misinformation to sell their cause.

How come the average American is terrified of their own government but are perfectly happy with handing over their lives and welfare to private insurers?

I wouldn't agree that one hands their life or welfare over to private insurance, but I would agree that the average American is terrified government involvement in certain issues.

How long will Americans accept the myth that they have the "best health care system in the world" when nearly a third of their populace in uninsured or underinsured?

I was meaning to post on it, but there are some things to consider when you talk about uninsured/underinsured. The number is too large, but I will find the source which this claim is based on about it before getting into it.

Companies can but won't its about greed and money.

I will agree that it most likely is an issue of money when it comes to companies. It's also about protecting the companies' best interest. Business (and government for that matter) usually does what is in its own best interests.

And the reason people continue to support being raped by everyone form the government to power elite is because people are too afraid and stupid to think on there own.

There's also a lot of bad information out there. I also think that critical thinking is discouraged in schools to some extent. Memorization and recitation of facts seems to pass for education.

I'm sick of the USA's lack of progress due to fear and stupidity.

I share the sentiment. There are many things wrong with this country that seem like they will not change (at least in my lifetime).

The people will continue to be mistreated and ignored until they wake up and pressure the government to do its job.

And what would be the stimulus for people to wake up and get the government to do its job?

When we realize socialism is not evil and being left wing isn't a crime then many be we can get universal health care but as of right now I knew it would be a stretch.

I don't think socialism is inherently evil. I also don't think that being from the left wing is a crime either. But I'm not sure UHC is the panacea to all of HC's (healthcare's) problems.

Before someone makes the argument that Canada's system is better, I found an article that talks a little bit about what Canada is going through. Food for thought if you will.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/canadianpress/article/ALeqM5jbjzPEY0Y3bvRD335rGu


Also, TLM when you say prescriptions for vitamins are you talking about certain strength or something else? The FDA does not have to approve dietary supplements, which can lead to problems. Some of these problems include inconsistency in the amount of active ingredient(s) per dosage form, other ingredients being added or mixed in with preparations, and other issues.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dietary_supplement#United_Stat

 

[Satya]

Oversight comes to mind for insurance companies, but a plan for competition? Isn't competition what free market is driven by? Also, what would constitute ethical business practices in insurance sales?

There is no such thing as a free market. The free market is a theoretical economic model, much in the way that true socialism is. Why do people use it as if it actually exists or even could exists in the real world? When you do that it becomes a meme and you become a slave to it.

Frankly, the ethics of any business or even any individual could be summed up in one rule. "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you." Somehow, many of the practices, such as denying coverage due to pre existing conditions and cutting coverage are not things that I imagine the insurance execs would want done to them.

I think that healthcare has a great number of issues to consider (including the physical and mental health of the population itself). I personally cannot separate the issue of healthcare from several considerations: social justice (and issues of morality), economics, politics, special interests (if any are involved), government, oversight and enforcement, etc. If we are talking about a plan in theory, it would be one thing. But to put it into practice is more than just the plan itself... hence the considerations that I have listed.

Although I consider healthcare to be a privilege (and not a basic human right) I find that I have great difficulty in separating my own morality and views of social justice from the equation. Even if I add those into the mix, new questions pop up.

For instance: should my views of morality or social justice be considered for public policy? Should my own views be forced onto others? I think that the answer is no. I also wonder how much each member of the forum approaches this issue in terms of social justice and morality when considering the issue. I think that more communication over such issues might reveal that we all may have very different ideas as to how these issues are dealt with.

That is a rather convoluted way of saying that you have no alternatives. Frankly, I find it ironic that matters of life and death could be considered a "privilege". What makes freedom of speech, religion, and assembly anymore of a right than health care?

I don't know. I think rising college costs and other things will cause more strain on the middle class, though healthcare could make or break a middle class family (in the case of a death in the family).

I'm not talking about "a middle class family" and I find it funny that you seemed to avoid the question in entirely. Do you or do you not think that health care will eventually become a luxury in this country? Do you or do you not think that it will contribute to impoverishing the middle class?

I have already talked a little bit about the misinformation war that was waged on this issue. I think that both sides of the debate have used stare tactics and misinformation to sell their cause.

Please point out some of the scare tactics used by the left on this issue. I would love to see the long list you could generate. And to be nice, I promise I'll name 3 scare tactics that the right and libertarians have used for every 1 scare tactic you do manage to come up with.

I wouldn't agree that one hands their life or welfare over to private insurance, but I would agree that the average American is terrified government involvement in certain issues.

Why wouldn't you agree with the former? It seems pretty clear from how this has been debated by the fear deranged Americans out there that they are more than willing to trust the faceless business grads over the faceless bureaucrats with the health care system.

I was meaning to post on it, but there are some things to consider when you talk about uninsured/underinsured. The number is too large, but I will find the source which this claim is based on about it before getting into it.

The number is considered too large because about 10-15% of 75 million people are people who have the money necessary to pay their own health costs without insurance. Is that what you meant? Even if that is the case, still over a fourth of the country does not have adequate coverage. Frankly, I think the line should be, "the best health care in the world for those who can afford it". Do you disagree?

I will agree that it most likely is an issue of money when it comes to companies. It's also about protecting the companies' best interest. Business (and government for that matter) usually does what is in its own best interests.

Buisness's have taken the concept of self interest backwards. It is in the self interest of a company to not exploit its customers. However, companies have found that they can use the media to distract customers with fear of government intervention to the point that they can exploit their costumers all they want. If the only alternative is the big, bad government intervening in their lives, then of course the customers will settle for whatever the insurance companies are offering.

There's also a lot of bad information out there. I also think that critical thinking is discouraged in schools to some extent. Memorization and recitation of facts seems to pass for education.

That is why you go to college.

 

[BickByro]

How long do you think it will be before health care becomes a complete luxury in this country that only the rich can afford and which slowly impoverishes the middle class?

Why are you speaking of this in the future tense rather than past?

How incredibly stupid do you think America has become that it lets itself be manipulated into hysterics by the scare tactics employed by insurance companies and their lackeys in the government and media?

How come the average American is terrified of their own government but are perfectly happy with handing over their lives and welfare to private insurers?

How long will Americans accept the myth that they have the "best health care system in the world" when nearly a third of their populace in uninsured or underinsured?

(1) Just that stupid. (2) See 1. (3) See 1.

Please point out some of the scare tactics used by the left on this issue. I would love to see the long list you could generate. And to be nice, I promise I'll name 3 scare tactics that the right and libertarians have used for every 1 scare tactic you do manage to come up with.

SOLID GOLD! It's about time somebody dealt with this fiction...

 

[Shai Gar]

Please point out some of the scare tactics used by the left on this issue. I would love to see the long list you could generate. And to be nice, I promise I'll name 3 scare tactics that the right and libertarians have used for every 1 scare tactic you do manage to come up with.

This should be made into a thread. Go on Satya, I know you can do it.

 

[Sithious]

Speaking of free markets, America has such a free market that Obama has spent 15 times the amount of dollars in circulation at the time the first bill was passed on stimilus bills, or roughly 16 trillion dollars to "stimulate" the economy.

This new health insurance is peanuts in comparison, if you're arguing against based on economical principles. And you can't really argue against universal health care based on ethics...

 

[mallory knox]

once again, greed wins.

 

[HaHa]

America didn't become stupid, America has always been stupid. America just started being manipulated by corporations who have their own profits at heart as opposed to by their government which theoretically has the interest of the people at heart. Of course, the modern government reflects this. Which is why I voted for Obama for "change". Maybe he should remember the campaign. That's not change, that's just more of the same.

 

[Billy]

Excellent! Good news.

 

[mallory knox]

Excellent! Good news.

America didn't become stupid, America has always been stupid. America just started being manipulated by corporations who have their own profits at heart as opposed to by their government which theoretically has the interest of the people at heart. Of course, the modern government reflects this. Which is why I voted for Obama for "change". Maybe he should remember the campaign. That's not change, that's just more of the same.

 

[Shai Gar]

Obama should remember that he campaigned for this on the campaign trail. The American People knew what they were getting when they voted him in. Therefore the American People want UHC.

Obama ought to remember that, and ignore congress.

 

[HaHa]

Obama should remember that he campaigned for this on the campaign trail. The American People knew what they were getting when they voted him in. Therefore the American People want UHC.

Obama ought to remember that, and ignore congress.

Exactly. He's banking on the fact that liberal democrats don't have anyone else to vote for next election, so it doesn't really matter if he alienates them as opposed to conservative leaning independents. Unfortunately, his calculation isn't taking into account the fact that his mystique is seriously diminished by being a pussy.

 

[Billy]

America didn't become stupid, America has always been stupid. America just started being manipulated by corporations who have their own profits at heart as opposed to by their government which theoretically has the interest of the people at heart. Of course, the modern government reflects this. Which is why I voted for Obama for "change". Maybe he should remember the campaign. That's not change, that's just more of the same.

Its times like this that I smile, my fellow anti socialist compatriots across the country rise to defeat clearly bad legislation and direction by just holding forums and discussing it. Democracy in action.

By the way America has ALWAYS been controlled by corporations, its kind of what America was invented for. You know the founders were all businessmen right? You know that the majority of the grievances against the King of England back then were financial in nature right? No Taxation without representation and all that. The revolution was not only a human rights campaign for American citizens at the time, it was a capitalist campaign to throw off the last vestiges of the old ways with a ruling class by blood. The new ruling class rules through business as it should be. Its inherently more fair than the nobility. Even the poorest man can begin a company and become rich.

 

[Billy]

Obama should remember that he campaigned for this on the campaign trail. The American People knew what they were getting when they voted him in. Therefore the American People want UHC.

Obama ought to remember that, and ignore congress.

How does he ignore congress? The President doesn't make legislation.

 

[Shai Gar]

Very easy, by rushing legislation through like bush did with the first patriot act.

 

[Billy]

Very easy, by rushing legislation through like bush did with the first patriot act.

He cant rush it through, he is not a congressional member nor a senator. He cannot do anything except let them handle it and encourage them. They are not doing it because there is great resentment against it, not just from us whacked out conservatives but from middle class Americans all across the country. Including (very important) Union Workers who already have much better health coverage than they will get if they go socialized.

 

[Shai Gar]

You don't think like a strategist.

You get a pet senator to put it through, at a time when there's no chance to read it before voting, and you attach it to an innocuous bill that they don't give a shit about.

 

[Billy]

You don't think like a strategist.

You get a pet senator to put it through, at a time when there's no chance to read it before voting, and you attach it to an innocuous bill that they don't give a shit about.

I know how they do it, and they tried. His pet senator didn't come through because Nancy Pelosi has a massive wang for control. And she is the queen bee as far as legislation is going to go. I think Obama should take it a step further and have her removed from office somehow, maybe accuse her of socialist treason, what with her getting all those state contracts for her pet district company and her husband. I love to watch Democrats fight one and other.