Health Care Reform Defeated

[Billy]

Hmmm. It has nothing to do with your religion. More with how protestantism affected capitalism. Or should I say, gave birth to capitalism.

It's the idea that work is the means to achieve everything.

If not work, then at least effort.

 

[just me]

quote "Do you honestly think insurance cooperatives are sufficient to provide affordable coverage for every citizen?" unquote by Satya

Satya, I am a bit taken by the quick response for an alternative measure by the Administration. Party should be at the foot of the hill with the other Party, but the hill should be built with health care and cost at the pinnacle. The people should be the winners. Time should be given to think this out better.
Affordable health care for every citizen seems an impossibility. There are those that cannot afford anything, so it seems. My hope is a rational indepth rethinking by all involved. The ideal could possibly become a reality one day, but medical technology has its high costs. R&D has its high costs. Education has its high costs. Medicines are not all cheap.

They do call it "the cost of living" still. I wish it well and time will tell.

 

[mallory knox]

I am not sure what you think being an INFJ means, but I think you lack a basic understanding for how MBTI works. Your health and well being are not my obligation, they are yours.

INFJ s readily show compassion and caring for others, but they share their internal intuitions only with those they trust.

- Seek purpose and meaning; align their actions to a humanistic goal

Change stimulates INFJs to develop and apply their inner vision of possibilities to create positive benefits for people.

- INFJ s provide future-oriented insights directed at serving human needs


just a few things off the internet.

You're right I understand little of these things, but I know that we're not selfish people, that we want to work for humanity and our morals go in that direction.

 

[Faye]

The first patriot act was passed in under 48 hours after 9-11. Nobody had time to read it before they voted on it, but they all felt they had to do something because of what happened. I don't think a similar scenario is going to occur for health care.

 

[mallory knox]

of course not, there's nothing in it to benefit the rich companies.
so, not a priority.

who again was paying for all those tv adverts against public health care?
possibly the ones who had something to lose.

there's nothing better than being able to offer any kind of service and charge for it since people have no other choice, and simply can't compare.

 

[Billy]

INFJ s readily show compassion and caring for others, but they share their internal intuitions only with those they trust.

- Seek purpose and meaning; align their actions to a humanistic goal

Change stimulates INFJs to develop and apply their inner vision of possibilities to create positive benefits for people.

- INFJ s provide future-oriented insights directed at serving human needs


just a few things off the internet.

You're right I understand little of these things, but I know that we're not selfish people, that we want to work for humanity and our morals go in that direction.

Yes and we are also Idealists, but there is nothing practical about idealism unless you can find a way to utilize it. You and I cannot save the world, nor can we fix it. That's reality. However we can keep our own back yards clean and help those we encounter personally. I can help more people by doing what I am doing, in fact I DO help people, I also volunteer locally to help troubled young boys without fathers. Just a few things I do in my life...

what do you do to help people? I mean other than whining about why no one wants to accept having socialism rammed down their throats on an internet forum? I provide jobs, wages, connections and means to live to people who work for me, what do you do?

I would readily give up organs, money, property, to help someone. But its going to be MY help, not theft from the government. I am not the poors work horse. But the very idea that you can even TRY to judge me with all that I do for people and call me selfish and self centered its impossibly difficult to digest. I mean just who the hell do you think you are?

Let me break down the pennies and nickles for you. I probably do more actual good in my local community than most idealist INFJs do in their entire lives. Just because I don't believe in socialism doesnt mean I don't believe in helping people... this isnt an uncommon trait amoung capitalist conservatives, they do afterall give more to charity than liberal democrats by a lot.

Why dont you ask greedy assholes like Bill Gates how much "good" they do in the world. I am guessing its far more than social engineering busy bodies like Obama.

 

[Billy]

of course not, there's nothing in it to benefit the rich companies.
so, not a priority.

who again was paying for all those tv adverts against public health care?
possibly the ones who had something to lose.

there's nothing better than being able to offer any kind of service and charge for it since people have no other choice, and simply can't compare.

Umm actually private health insurance means choice... you can choose whom to give your money to. Government health care removes that choice.

 

[Satya]

Yes, but the causes of this are rather circular: increased government regulations made it a lot harder for the little guy to start a business; the established businesses suffered a bit from the inefficiencies, but benefited from the lack of smaller upstarts to compete with; monopolies were formed and then cracked down upon with more regulations; finally, some areas of big business gained enough influence over government to craft restrictions on their competitors (sometimes also on themselves, but advantageous because they were big enough to absorb the costs).

Blaming government regulation is like blaming the rain for the clouds. Basically there is a double standard. The wealthy can lobby and get all the government regulation they want that supports their interests, but if the little guy wants government regulation that supports his interest then he is painted as a socialist. It's gotten to the point that you are actually sitting here arguing that unregulated monopolies are good, which is such a ludicrous idea that even Adam Smith would spin in his grave at the idea.

It is clearly harder for poor people to rise now than it was when they were getting off the boats at Ellis Island, especially with education requirements for licenses. The "land of opportunity" has evolved into a sort of money-based (as opposed to blood-based) feudal system.

You act as if there is a difference. In case you are unaware, there is this thing called inheritance.

 

[mallory knox]

Umm actually private health insurance means choice... you can choose whom to give your money to. Government health care removes that choice.

how does it remove that choice?

you'd still be able to pay for private insurance if you choose to do so.

are you really that dumb?

 

[Satya]

Are you saying that democracy in which action leads to an outcome you dislike is not real democracy? Shocking!

I'm saying we live in a Constitutional Republic rather than a democracy for a reason. It's called mob rule, and it usually isn't too smart considering how easy it is to rile up the mob. The founding fathers had it right setting up our government the way they did.

Hahahahahahahahahahahaha *deep breath* hahahahahahahaha... im sorry I just had to laugh at your completely incorrect, bitter and pathetic response. I am not trying to be mean but you are seriously mistaken. Like not even close, so off the mark mistaken that its really not that funny after all, I apologize for laughing. Its not a laughing matter.

Feel free to point out some examples. I love how you try to dismiss my argument, but don't even bother to demonstrate how I am wrong. For someone who can get such a good laugh out of it, you should easily be able to post a dozen names. Remember, they have to currently be living, began in poverty, and now be a part of the wealthy top 5% of the country. Go show me, otherwise I reserve the right to call you a moron for the above response.

 

[Shai Gar]

Not dumb, just an ISFJ.

They're good people, but they're not idealists. And they're not social progressives.

 

[Billy]

how does it remove that choice?

you'd still be able to pay for private insurance if you choose to do so.

are you really that dumb?

Are you saying I can opt out of paying for the government health care and get my own insurance? Or are you saying I can pay for my own insurance in addition to paying for government health care I wont use?

 

[mallory knox]

Yes and we are also Idealists, but there is nothing practical about idealism unless you can find a way to utilize it. You and I cannot save the world, nor can we fix it. That's reality. However we can keep our own back yards clean and help those we encounter personally. I can help more people by doing what I am doing, in fact I DO help people, I also volunteer locally to help troubled young boys without fathers. Just a few things I do in my life...

what do you do to help people? I mean other than whining about why no one wants to accept having socialism rammed down their throats on an internet forum? I provide jobs, wages, connections and means to live to people who work for me, what do you do?

I would readily give up organs, money, property, to help someone. But its going to be MY help, not theft from the government. I am not the poors work horse. But the very idea that you can even TRY to judge me with all that I do for people and call me selfish and self centered its impossibly difficult to digest. I mean just who the hell do you think you are?

Let me break down the pennies and nickles for you. I probably do more actual good in my local community than most idealist INFJs do in their entire lives. Just because I don't believe in socialism doesnt mean I don't believe in helping people... this isnt an uncommon trait amoung capitalist conservatives, they do afterall give more to charity than liberal democrats by a lot.

Why dont you ask greedy assholes like Bill Gates how much "good" they do in the world. I am guessing its far more than social engineering busy bodies like Obama.

Nothing I said has anything to do with socialism, once again, I am not a socialist. In many countries capitalism and public services co-exist quite well. You have the police, public education, what is the difference? Are you saying having public schools or public services of any kind makes your country socialist?

If you think defeningp public health care makes me a socialist then you've been taking too much of other people's propaganda and ideologies of us and them down your throat.

You divide the whole world between conservatives, democracts, socialists whatever name you come up with and that really gets in the way of your ability to judge what really goes on.

I do not have to fall into your category just because you can't think outside categories.

I am not here to prove to you how good I am or what I do for people, that's ridiculous.

but honestly, to me you're just so horribly brainwashed you've lost the ability to analyse and think for yourself.

 

[Satya]

Umm actually private health insurance means choice... you can choose whom to give your money to. Government health care removes that choice.

What government health care? Nobody was advocating for socialized medicine. We only wanted a public insurance option to compete against the private insurers. What was wrong with that?

 

[mallory knox]

Are you saying I can opt out of paying for the government health care and get my own insurance? Or are you saying I can pay for my own insurance in addition to paying for government health care I wont use?

I'm saying that you would have your treatment guaranteed but if you opt to go private you'd be entitled to.

You already pay enough taxes to make that possible, you just have to decide if the military/weapon programs are more of a priority to your budget or people's health.

But I'll have you know that in most countries those who pay for private health insurance indeed get a tax reduction.

 

[Billy]

I'm saying we live in a Constitutional Republic rather than a democracy for a reason. It's called mob rule, and it usually isn't too smart considering how easy it is to rile up the mob. The founding fathers had it right setting up our government the way they did.




Feel free to point out some examples. I love how you try to dismiss my argument, but don't even bother to demonstrate how I am wrong. For someone who can get such a good laugh out of it, you should easily be able to post a dozen names. Remember, they have to currently be living, began in poverty, and now be a part of the wealthy top 5% of the country. Go show me, otherwise I reserve the right to call you a moron for the above response.

ok ill give you a few off the top of my head.

1. my cousin Josh Owns well over 5 million dollars in personal property investments.
2. My mothers stepfather - Owns Triple Springs Water Co.
3. my brother Rick Owner of Weblux LLC
4. my good friend Dana - owns Business Integrated Soultions Technology / BITS
5. My friend Wayne - owns a small lumber operation and a tree clearing service
6. My friend Rusty- owns SPFX masks and effects.
7. My friend Mike Cassello - owns Cassello Real Estate
8. My neighbor Wayne Barneschi - owns the trail of terror haunted amusement

Should I keep going? These are just people in my every day life and family... maybe thats why I have such a hard time envisioning the doom and gloom of modern society that you do. I am surrounded by capitalist entrepreneurs. best part is that not a single one of these people started with money. Most in fact started in the lower middle class or lower working class.

I will be on this list soon enough

 

[Billy]

Nothing I said has anything to do with socialism, once again, I am not a socialist. In many countries capitalism and public services co-exist quite well. You have the police, public education, what is the difference? Are you saying having public schools or public services of any kind makes your country socialist?

If you think defeningp public health care makes me a socialist then you've been taking too much of other people's propaganda and ideologies of us and them down your throat.

You divide the whole world between conservatives, democracts, socialists whatever name you come up with and that really gets in the way of your ability to judge what really goes on.

I do not have to fall into your category just because you can't think outside categories.

I am not here to prove to you how good I am or what I do for people, that's ridiculous.

but honestly, to me you're just so horribly brainwashed you've lost the ability to analyse and think for yourself.

And I honestly think you need to tone down your F and tone up your N a little bit because you are making great leaps based on your emotions and not what you are seeing and reading. Which is another INFJ problem.

 

[mallory knox]

wow congratulations!

but you know, it's not the same for everyone.

there's something called statistics, maybe you wanna take a look on that.

 

[mallory knox]

And I honestly think you need to tone down your F and tone up your N a little bit because you are making great leaps based on your emotions and not what you are seeing and reading. Which is another INFJ problem.

well you don't have that problem.

it would be cute if it wasn't also nauseating the way that you avoid certain things.

so public education is a socialist thing?

do you know why you have public education but not public health care? because as long as you study you can work and bring profit while you're healthy, when you're unhealthy you no longer bring profit and that's how your system works.

so it's not "socialist" to offer people free education, the police, social security, unemployment checks, food stamps or whatever you call it... it's not a "socialist" thing to pay for the fire department to save them for a burning building, but it's suddenyl too "socialist" to save their lives when they can't afford to pay for it?

 

[Billy]

Not dumb, just an ISFJ.

They're good people, but they're not idealists. And they're not social progressives.

Incorrect, I am not an S, in fact when I did take the MBTI tests my I and N were always the strongest while my F and J were much weaker. Try sharpening up that N a little more.