Hey anybody out there?

[kyo]

I stand by what I said. My beef is with organized religion, not you, God, or sprital beleifs in general. They encourage arrogance in their beliefs in that they pretend to let you "seek" but really just want you to "adopt". There are too many people out there that just want to be told how to think, I am not one of them. They are all politicized and filled with dogma. For myself, I will seek a path of my own choosing.

I agree with that many religions are like this. But be careful to think it is the same for all.

I am what poeple would call christian, tho I dont like the term of being christian or the idea of religion. I would rather see my self as a follower of Christ, Jesus freak or something. This is kind of the same thing, but the general public image of religion and christianity is so far from how I interpret the bible. Religion more often than not is being described in rules to follow and punishments and often when people are asked what they believe, they state all these rules and stuff. And that is because the question is all wrong, at least when you ask me it would be wrong. Then you should ask who I believe in.

My answer would be I believe in Jesus.

 

[Barnabas]

I agree with that many religions are like this. But be careful to think it is the same for all.

I am what poeple would call christian, tho I dont like the term of being christian or the idea of religion. I would rather see my self as a follower of Christ, Jesus freak or something. This is kind of the same thing, but the general public image of religion and christianity is so far from how I interpret the bible. Religion more often than not is being described in rules to follow and punishments and often when people are asked what they believe, they state all these rules and stuff. And that is because the question is all wrong, at least when you ask me it would be wrong. Then you should ask who I believe in.

My answer would be I believe in Jesus.

This man speaks truth

 

[arbygil]

So you believe that God preordains for the kingdom of heaven.

doesn't that take away the freewill of man.

That's a limited view of Calvanism, actually. Men do have free will and often exercise it. But the prompting of coming to salvation has nothing to do with men. No one can force someone to become a Christian, and we do not know who is/isn't a Christian. And because we don't know, we can only listen to promptings of the Spirit to engage a listener.

If someone asks, or if someone is curious, of course I'll discuss it with them! If someone just wants to argue, then let them argue; I don't need to.

 

[Questingpoet]

Your beliefs are unfounded sorry to be blunt but there is no fancy way to say it.

As for my age I believe Paul would like to have a word with you.

My beliefs are relevent for me. They sustain me. If by "Unfounded" you mean not based in christian dogma, then I would have to agree.

And you continue to choose to mis-interpet my comment on your age. I am not implying in 20 years you will not be a Christian, or will not believe in God. I am simply stating you will have a different perspective. Not that you will abandon your core beliefs. I hope you can take that statement for what it is, an not attach other connatations to it.

This statement is condescending and reeks of arrogance by the way: " I believe Paul would like to have a word with you."

And to the Kyo, there are certainly other religions out there less based in ritual and dogma. My statement does seem a bit of a blankent statement. It has only been so with (all) the ones I have encountered. Nothing is absolute. I simply choose to seek spirituality on my own, without all the trappings. Some want more guidance, other do not.

 

[sassafras]

I can agree with you on all but one point. In calling yourself a christian you can not say that I believe in may ways to God.

"I am the way, the truth, the life no one come to the father except through me."

As for worship, worship is life and how you live it. It's more then singing in church on Sunday or accepting communion.

I believe that God loves all His children, which is the belief that I find paramount in the New Testament. God did not choose a people, and damn the rest to Hell for following another interpretation of His Glory.

But that all comes down to how I personally interpret the Bible. I see in it both the message of God and the mechanisms of building a successful Church. Of course people would say that "it's this way" and not another, because it would be impossible to unify a church in any other way. The same way Paul no longer mandated strict food laws or circumcision when trying to convert the Romans.

But I'm sure this is a point that we will disagree on.

 

[]L%;Zwnj]

Very interesting! I think that is extremely admirable *applause*. You focus on the faith and belief and NOT the religion then ? ^^

Well thank you very much I definitely focus on my faith and belief, though the religion itself is very very important to me as well. I don't think that other religions are all out wrong, but I do think that we have the full truth, so, a little more than other religions. For example, the Book of Mormon, and prophets today. (I hope people don't think I'm dissing their beliefs by saying we have the full truth because that is not my intent.)

I love everyone and I believe that God loves everyone, and that includes people who are not of the same beliefs. Some of the people that I most respect disagree with what I believe in.

 

[Barnabas]

That's a limited view of Calvanism, actually. Men do have free will and often exercise it. But the prompting of coming to salvation has nothing to do with men. No one can force someone to become a Christian, and we do not know who is/isn't a Christian. And because we don't know, we can only listen to promptings of the Spirit to engage a listener.

If someone asks, or if someone is curious, of course I'll discuss it with them! If someone just wants to argue, then let them argue; I don't need to.

So your saying that man can be told about god, but only God can bring them to belief. Please tell me if I'm wrong

 

[youhemmein]

And you continue to choose to mis-interpet my comment on your age. I am not implying in 20 years you will not be a Christian, or will not believe in God. I am simply stating you will have a different perspective. Not that you will abandon your core beliefs. I hope you can take that statement for what it is, an not attach other connatations to it.

This statement is condescending and reeks of arrogance by the way: " I believe Paul would like to have a word with you."

I think what Chris is referring to here is 1 Timothy 4:12 - NIV - Don't let anyone look down on you because you are young, but set an example for the believers in speech, in life, in love, in faith and in purity.

He's fighting the insinuation that because he's young, he can't have solid beliefs based on his own search for truth, or that he's even been wise enough to know to search for truth. And he makes a good point. There is unbridled wisdom and purity in youth, and the search for truth at a young age is more likely a product of legitimate desire for a deep spiritual life rather than for square-peg in a round hole self-serving idealism. Just a thought. Carry on.

 

[Barnabas]

I believe that God loves all His children, which is the belief that I find paramount in the New Testament. God did not choose a people, and damn the rest to Hell for following another interpretation of His Glory.

But that all comes down to how I personally interpret the Bible. I see in it both the message of God and the mechanisms of building a successful Church. Of course people would say that "it's this way" and not another, because it would be impossible to unify a church in any other way. The same way Paul no longer mandated strict food laws or circumcision when trying to convert the Romans.

But I'm sure this is a point that we will disagree on.

God chose everybody, those who don't follow him damn themselves. Remember personal interpretations have room for at least the smallest amount of biased. It is how many came to ridiculous conclusions about the Bible and it's teachings. We should only ever look to find out exactly what the writers and the author meant.

Remember it was not only Paul who came to the conclusion of the removal of dietary and circumcision laws but the rest of the apostles as well. Remember that peter as well is shown a vision from God over the gentiles and the dietary laws in Acts 10:9-30.

 

[bamf]

I hate to say this, but this thread just makes me like religion less and less.

If there's all these rules to get into heaven and God (who is all knowing and all good) decides that people who don't believe in Christianity are going to hell, then fuck it, banish me to hell. I wouldn't want to spend forever with a God that is so closed minded.

 

[Ria]

I hate to say this, but this thread just makes me like religion less and less.

If there's all these rules to get into heaven and God (who is all knowing and all good) decides that people who don't believe in Christianity are going to hell, then fuck it, banish me to hell. I wouldn't want to spend forever with a God that is so closed minded.

sign me up too mf, if I am not going to be accepted by 'my creator', then I am not interested in a god who doesn't love me unconditionally...

There is far more loving, safe feeling energy in a pow-wow or a sweat lodge IMO... There is just no "CONNECTION" for me with Christianity I'm afraid... and don't bother 'praying' for me, I'd rather you didn't. Thanks,

http://forum.infjs.com/showthread.php?p=141831#post141831


however, I might not agre with a word you say, but I will defent to the death, your right to say it...

enjoy your beliefs guys, sorry if I offended anyone- just a bit of a frustration point for me.

I'm done, pls continue as you all were...

 

[bamf]

Similar things go for the food (custom later abolished in the NT). Certain things were harmful if not prepared or if stored wrong. Ancient Jews had no way to know that these things could be harmful until it would be to late. So God give the law to not eat these things.

I'm pretty sure ancient doesn't mean stupid. They most certainly would know that they could be harmful. As soon as one person died they would have learned. How did they know not to jump off cliffs? Not to fight a bear with no weapons?

People learn from doing, and while God might have made these laws, it wasn't because the people didn't know how to prepare food.

 

[Solar Empath]

sign me up too mf, if I am not going to be accepted by 'my creator', then I am not interested in a god who doesn't love me unconditionally...

This became my sticking point too. I can't imagine a God that is less capable of love and understanding than myself, and to make eternal life about a litmus test of which religious school you adhere to... I don't believe in that, cannot believe in that.

 

[sassafras]

God chose everybody, those who don't follow him damn themselves.

What if they're following Him on a different path? What if they worship in their own way without having to follow careful rituals and practices? What if they're just good people without needing an axe like damnation hanging over their heads? I don't think God gets caught up in details like this.

The church needs converts, so of course it is going to say that this word is the only truth. But it stops being theological there and more political than anything.

Remember personal interpretations have room for at least the smallest amount of biased. It is how many came to ridiculous conclusions about the Bible and it's teachings. We should only ever look to find out exactly what the writers and the author meant.

Exactly. The Church can have an margin of error as well. And considering its long and turbulent political history, no doubt there's more than just a little bias. I think the key is to use the institution as a jump off point, and work on your personal relationship with God on your own.

Remember it was not only Paul who came to the conclusion of the removal of dietary and circumcision laws but the rest of the apostles as well. Remember that peter as well is shown a vision from God over the gentiles and the dietary laws in Acts 10:9-30.

The Apostles themselves were told to go out and convert as well. It still stands that they would have to be more lenient on some of the laws.

 

[Barnabas]

I hate to say this, but this thread just makes me like religion less and less.

If there's all these rules to get into heaven and God (who is all knowing and all good) decides that people who don't believe in Christianity are going to hell, then fuck it, banish me to hell. I wouldn't want to spend forever with a God that is so closed minded.

thank you for adding this off topic remark.

 

[IndigoSensor]

Well there is one major thing that you touched on, you don't share judeo christian values. My sins disgust me, especially those of a sexual nature. Just as maybe the thought of lying produces negative feelings in you. If we shared the values of the Bible, then you would most likely have a similar opinion.

I'd also like to point out, "To deny what oneself to what they are attracted to" Christ himself made this exceptionally clear. Matthew 16:24a "If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross and follow me."

Jesus didn't mix words. Sin is fun, faith is hard and we have to choose between love and lust.

Just remember the of God is far greater then anything or one in this world.
As much as I love my friends or my mother and father. I would forsake them in a heart beat to follow God. His love is beyond anything any one can offer you. Trust me.

"God is far greater then anything or one in this world". I don't believe in god, but I believe in a higher power or "source" if you will. That sentence resonates with me. However, if god is that great, powerful, and all knowing. How is it possible that one single mental thought, in one small insignifgant person, is enough to anger god and make it be called a sin? I would say it's impossible. The problem I have with sin is there is no alignment of "act and punishment". I share some values of the bible, however not most. Reason being is again I do not see any reason or rationalle behind what is concidered good bad, or things that need to be done.

That isn't to say I dont believe that quote you said. I just follow it in a different context. I have my own set of values and beleifs to what is good and bad. If I know something is bad or wrong (i.e. most things that would cause some kind of harm to someone else), I will avoid doing so. Most things the bible says that do not seem like they cause some kind of harm to someone else don't resonate with me, nor have the ever, nor will they ever.

And I can tell you this, the love and energy I feel from my religious/spiritual (and I am a very spiritual person) beleifs are powerful, and strong. I have felt many things and seen many things in my life so far that have proven to me so. Who is to say you are right and I am wrong, or visa versa. I believe that in a way we are right. And I am sorry if you tell me that I'm wrong then you have a lot of growing up to do as a person. I don't know what it is about religions that cause devoute followers to believe that what they follow is the only correct thing, but it is one of the most major problems that is contained within most religions.

 

[bamf]

How is it off topic? We're talking about religion, are we not? If you don't want non christian thought in this thread then I'll refrain from posting here, but I personally think it relates very much to religion.

 

[Barnabas]

I'm pretty sure ancient doesn't mean stupid. They most certainly would know that they could be harmful. As soon as one person died they would have learned. How did they know not to jump off cliffs? Not to fight a bear with no weapons?

People learn from doing, and while God might have made these laws, it wasn't because the people didn't know how to prepare food.

The point wasn't that they were stupid, it was to prevent them from learning the hard way.

 

[IndigoSensor]

Just a heads up everyone. I can see this thread getting nasty, be mindful and peaceful (i.e. keep the flames to a minimum), or we might lock this thread down the line.

It has been mostly civil so far, so let's keep it that way.

 

[bamf]

The point wasn't that they were stupid, it was to prevent them from learning the hard way.

So did God write them laws to prevent them from learning anything potentially dangerous the hard way? Or did he only warn them about the dangers specifically stated in the bible?