Hiding one's own self to an extent

Jexocuha said:
Life is a game. It doesn't mean it's not serious or meaningful. Games played in this world can be extremely dangerous or fun; but they are games none the less.
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Brilliant. This, and the rest of the post as well.

Cheers,
Ian
 
just me said:
Watching Batman as a kid, and Superman, has had lingering thought patterns.

How many here have done things to help people and kept out of the limelight purposefully? How many have used their gifts and kept their gift to themselves?

How many have allowed people to use and take advantage of them, knowing they are, and kept quiet and mild? How many of those like this have ever been a walking time bomb? If so, do you have a limit? Can you react in a way nobody else would know it was you?

How many know things they do not share? Are we still an introvert wearing a mask? How many are like the Hulk? We keep our secrets, and may react in a way our secrets will not be revealed. When we are taken advantage of, we may act a little quietly. Should we reveal ourselves? I personally think not. I think we should keep a cap on the volcano until it erupts, because we can mostly contain it.

Yet, as happens every now and then, we can become as tornadoes or hurricanes. We may not realize the intensity within ourselves. Maybe someone is trying to get us to explode? I think that would be something should be given a lot of thought.

I pray for help, but there have been times when whatever it is within us cannot be contained any longer.
I'm praying.
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I’m sure everyone does this from time to time, and where division is found. Hoping for peace for you.
 
just me said:
Being a very spiritual infj and an adult one(old), I see self-sacrifice as a large part of my being. Maybe the wisdom I have studied helped to mold me like this.
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just me said:
Yet, as happens every now and then, we can become as tornadoes or hurricanes. We may not realize the intensity within ourselves. Maybe someone is trying to get us to explode? I think that would be something should be given a lot of thought.
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just me said:
I often wonder when we will become who we are.
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It's just that we aren't perfect, and we all carry a mixture of light and dark within us - it can take a lifetime to find out who we really are for ourselves, let alone share it with someone else. Part of the consequence of The Fall is that out conscious minds claim kingship over the whole of us, but really my conscious self is just part of a team and not always in the lead role in the story of who I really am.

What this means is that what we think we ought to be and to do is not necessarily at all easy to accomplish, and we can find the other parts of our mind, those we are not in charge of absolutely, can rebel, and derail things against our will. Personally, when I reach my limits and compassion fatigue sets in, I can either blow up in anger, or collapse into depression.

I think that the heart of Christianity understands this at its very centre. Knowing we are imperfect, incomplete and finite is part of being human, and we will go wrong even with the best of intentions. The message to forgive, not seven times but seventy times seven, applies to ourselves as well as to others. I think what is wanted of us is that we try, that we mess up sometimes and we learn from that, then we pick ourselves up and try again but using the learning we gained from the mess up. And we repeat as often as we mess up again - which we will. All the time we travel this road, we learn about ourselves, who we are and what we can do, and we have an increasing power to help others within our limits as a result, and an increasing ability to share who we are with others too.

I'm not sure if I'm fully understanding where you are just me, but I love the metaphor of The Hulk you quoted because it's so expressive. Batman is another good one, because his virtue is a compensation for his hidden inner darkness. Don't beat yourself up if you are trying, but blowing up sometimes, or derailing in some other way. From what you have said, you are trying but hitting snags - I think God is delighted when we have a go and he doesn't expect perfection. He wants us to learn from each situation and then keep on trying. I know from my own experience that I learn far more about myself, others and Him from the things that have gone wrong.

I'm taking a bit of a guess here, so I hope I've not misunderstood.
 
Called upon the waters, We walk not.
To destroy those against Us, We pray not to do so.
Are We weak or rebellious?
As We are supposed to be more like Jesus, so We pray for those against Us that they be spared.
Called to help, We try to help. Miracles are everywhere.
Asked to speak, We try to speak...knowing the words are too much to understand. Knowing there will be doubts.
We pray for angels to behold the animosity and killing: the greed and destruction.

When We pray for it, We feel our Spirit upon the waters walking about at night. Why always at night?
Trying to make sense out of the world, and why some grey areas seem needed for the world to keep on going, We wrestle with it.
Every step closer We get, We are asked to do more and say more. Each step teaches Us and We walk higher up the steps.
Who are We, this Spirit within our being seemingly drawing Us to that last step?
Yes, faith is so important; We water and feed it and have the opportunity to watch it grow.
When all are below our feet, We will have rest. Give Us the strength to make that last step.
 
David Nelson said:
The thing that bugs me is how sensors tend to think they know us, when they really don’t have much clue. You’d think they would find us a mystery, but maybe we contribute to their false impressions via our chamaeleon natures.
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I get this. Sensors never seem to wonder about your layers. They have no concept. They get confused from time to time when you get deep about something, but they never understand. I feel invisible with these types of friends. They can be the nicest, but there’s always something lacking for me.
 
just me said:
How many know things they do not share?
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One of the hardest things for me right now is that I have learned an immense amount of things in a short amount of time, the hard way, and that I can’t share that information because nobody wants to believe it. And if anyone would want to know, they still might not take my advice.
And as an INFJ, I really need to save everyone, right? Imagine how useless or underutilized an INFJ can feel amongst those who have different ways and values.
 
John K said:
It's just that we aren't perfect, and we all carry a mixture of light and dark within us - it can take a lifetime to find out who we really are for ourselves, let alone share it with someone else. Part of the consequence of The Fall is that out conscious minds claim kingship over the whole of us, but really my conscious self is just part of a team and not always in the lead role in the story of who I really am.

What this means is that what we think we ought to be and to do is not necessarily at all easy to accomplish, and we can find the other parts of our mind, those we are not in charge of absolutely, can rebel, and derail things against our will. Personally, when I reach my limits and compassion fatigue sets in, I can either blow up in anger, or collapse into depression.

I think that the heart of Christianity understands this at its very centre. Knowing we are imperfect, incomplete and finite is part of being human, and we will go wrong even with the best of intentions. The message to forgive, not seven times but seventy times seven, applies to ourselves as well as to others. I think what is wanted of us is that we try, that we mess up sometimes and we learn from that, then we pick ourselves up and try again but using the learning we gained from the mess up. And we repeat as often as we mess up again - which we will. All the time we travel this road, we learn about ourselves, who we are and what we can do, and we have an increasing power to help others within our limits as a result, and an increasing ability to share who we are with others too.

I'm not sure if I'm fully understanding where you are just me, but I love the metaphor of The Hulk you quoted because it's so expressive. Batman is another good one, because his virtue is a compensation for his hidden inner darkness. Don't beat yourself up if you are trying, but blowing up sometimes, or derailing in some other way. From what you have said, you are trying but hitting snags - I think God is delighted when we have a go and he doesn't expect perfection. He wants us to learn from each situation and then keep on trying. I know from my own experience that I learn far more about myself, others and Him from the things that have gone wrong.

I'm taking a bit of a guess here, so I hope I've not misunderstood.
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I often oscillate between times of hopeless depressive thinking and hopeful joyous dreams. It often feels like being at a crossroads but not knowing which way to go. Seeking truth but also love. Is it fear versus hope or logic versus feeling? Ren says on the back of his book that much of the INFJ predicament is that we are at a cognitive crossroads. We seek the best path in a complex world, and this can be so perplexing when ego, past bitterness and self pity can play a big part in preventing us making good decisions or avoiding them altogether (not really possible though).
 
MsLonelyHearts said:
I get this. Sensors never seem to wonder about your layers. They have no concept. They get confused from time to time when you get deep about something, but they never understand. I feel invisible with these types of friends. They can be the nicest, but there’s always something lacking for me.
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Totally. And it means they often misinterpret our motives, which adds to our insecurities and existential alienation. This leaves us lonelier than if we had never interacted with them in the first place.
 
MsLonelyHearts said:
One of the hardest things for me right now is that I have learned an immense amount of things in a short amount of time, the hard way, and that I can’t share that information because nobody wants to believe it. And if anyone would want to know, they still might not take my advice.
And as an INFJ, I really need to save everyone, right? Imagine how useless or underutilized an INFJ can feel amongst those who have different ways and values.
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I resonate so strongly with your words. It’s like discovering treasure but others have no interest in it, or can’t see the value in it. A special kind of hell is not being understood by those we want to help. But it’s important to remember the situation is not binary. We can be ‘seen’ and valued. Just takes time and the right people usually.

But in general as INFJs we are on a different frequency to most other people. That’s a lonely place, especially when what we can perceive and express can be so wonderful. Most don’t know what we are capable of. Gotta make yourself shine somehow. Our eyes are powerful, use them
 
John K said:
I think that the heart of Christianity understands this at its very centre. Knowing we are imperfect, incomplete and finite is part of being human, and we will go wrong even with the best of intentions. The message to forgive, not seven times but seventy times seven, applies to ourselves as well as to others. I think what is wanted of us is that we try, that we mess up sometimes and we learn from that, then we pick ourselves up and try again but using the learning we gained from the mess up. And we repeat as often as we mess up again - which we will. All the time we travel this road, we learn about ourselves, who we are and what we can do, and we have an increasing power to help others within our limits as a result, and an increasing ability to share who we are with others too.
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So true, @John K.

God places us together with people who will help prepare us for what is next, and maybe we help prepare them in the same manner. It reminds me of "The Accountant" movie. The accountant was going by the name of "Christian", who was a famous mathematician. His Father took him to a school to seek help for him. He was overly gifted and different. They sat him down at a glass table and gave him a puzzle to put together while they talked. Every piece was placed blank side up. He, as about ten to twelve years old, put the puzzle together before they were finished talking...except one piece.

He started panicking and making funny noises, jumping around, and this young lady that stopped talking and was in the school saw the piece and handed it to him. He finished the puzzle(finishing was important to him). Neither said a word to each other, but they connected and remained friends through their adult lives.

We edify each other, if we will. We get tested at times, but we grow. We figure things out. God will walk us through it. We may not do things like everyone else, but we are listening to God's Spirit. When we do and apply it, we walk places others want to see us walk. We do things others want to see us do. People don't all want to see us fail. Some people want us to obtain our full potential. Something new every year. We are not alone.
 
We carry little influences with us along our journey: It is almost like some people actually are part of us They have opened and revealed to us. Moments come and go, and we start sharing of our selves to others. Sometimes we may doubt we are infj, though it rather feels like we are grown-up infjs. Stopping to see your Father, running to get him some orange juice, seeing your biological Father at the cash register and buying him a drink, then running back to the baseball park where you were up to bat during the time out. Looking up, we see we are running to the major leagues and they are waiting for you to go to bat.

While both Dads are passed away in rest, and knowing we quit playing baseball, we see them there to watch us get into the Major Leagues. We took the time to stop for each of them. It all becomes clear now, because we put our agenda aside at un unbelievable moment to talk to and help them. Now that is the Major League. We carry them and their gifts they shared with us. We are thankful for older(than us at the time) people who have helped us to see new things, to hear new things, and mostly to understand old things.
 
just me said:
Watching Batman as a kid, and Superman, has had lingering thought patterns.

How many here have done things to help people and kept out of the limelight purposefully? How many have used their gifts and kept their gift to themselves?

How many have allowed people to use and take advantage of them, knowing they are, and kept quiet and mild? How many of those like this have ever been a walking time bomb? If so, do you have a limit? Can you react in a way nobody else would know it was you?

How many know things they do not share? Are we still an introvert wearing a mask? How many are like the Hulk? We keep our secrets, and may react in a way our secrets will not be revealed. When we are taken advantage of, we may act a little quietly. Should we reveal ourselves? I personally think not. I think we should keep a cap on the volcano until it erupts, because we can mostly contain it.

Yet, as happens every now and then, we can become as tornadoes or hurricanes. We may not realize the intensity within ourselves. Maybe someone is trying to get us to explode? I think that would be something should be given a lot of thought.

I pray for help, but there have been times when whatever it is within us cannot be contained any longer.
I'm praying.
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I just joined and this is my first post reading… ty?
 
aeon said:
Brilliant. This, and the rest of the post as well.

Cheers,
Ian
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I agree. Games are supposed to be fun, and I know how to play games. I don’t condone playing games with peoples emotions though just to elicit a response- not in a serious manner anyway. I just don’t understand that or why anyone would do that except for “evil”- self gratification, but why at the expense of another’s turmoil? I just don’t understand, and believe me I have tried
 
celly2 said:
I agree. Games are supposed to be fun, and I know how to play games. I don’t condone playing games with peoples emotions though just to elicit a response- not in a serious manner anyway. I just don’t understand that or why anyone would do that except for “evil”- self gratification, but why at the expense of another’s turmoil? I just don’t understand, and believe me I have tried
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The only thing I can think of is that maybe the person “targeted” isn’t liked very well or in high regard with the “perpetrator? I’m not THAT sensitive. Period Right???
 
Ok. Another post… I know I’m living in an “unsavory” “relationship” I use quotes to reiterate the ambiguity of it. My question for advice- never mind. My advice to others- do not compromise yourself for others! Especially narcissistic asses! Thanks for allowing me to vent.. hope it’s not against protocol. Btw- my observation is he is EVERYTHING I am not. What is the opposite of infj? ???
 
Enso said:
I read this post and reflected on it, surprisingly over the years I have become more and more like most people and I don't really hide much and have a more consistent personalty, because the stuff I know is of less value than I thought it meant. I work with another INFJ sometimes and I'm considerably older, and it is kind of crazy to see your own though patterns played out in front of you but by someone else. I don't particularly get a long with her, and I'd probably just freak the crap out of her if I somehow told her I was INFJ (she could well be on these forums). As I have picked up mindfulness practices what I have found is that I was undervaluing myself a lot and that I tended to build a personality around being different, the problem is when you build a personality like that you develop bad patterns and ones that undervalue yourself even if it's just out of non-conformance with the typical western personality.

When I started to let stuff go in mindfulness practices I realised that I actually didn't want to let go of my maladaptive patterns because they had actually become a part of "me", it was kinda twisted. Similarly with those things we just "pickup" and read other minds, and things like avoiding embarrassment of others etc. Ultimately, it's their fight and it's their lesson to learn. But I see the patterns still on this INFJ acquaintance, and of course I'm still far from perfect. I would say it really does go deep and it really often does have something to do with the way you treat yourself and subsequently the type of people you attract and how they treat you. I can literally overlap an experience I had with the INFJ at work where I simply had to walk away because I couldn't deal with her "stuff" that simply had nothing to do with the present moment and it almost perfectly mimicked an interaction I had with a colleague years ago where he just gave up and walked off. Value is interconnected with the sense of self, which is pretty much what all INFJ's struggle with.

Anyway, I'm not trying to blame you our project my crap on to you but just something to consider.
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This really resonates with me.
Jexocuha said:
I have an issue with the idea of "hiding oneself" because it carries a connotation that most or all people are inauthentic, regardless of type, and complete openness and transparency of individuals is preferable. Life is a game. It doesn't mean it's not serious or meaningful. Games played in this world can be extremely dangerous or fun; but they are games none the less. I think people do what they do in life and are who they are, not necessarily because they want to be but because they have to be. And if it requires tailoring one's own style of expression to not draw unwanted/unneeded attention to oneself, to fit the cultural furniture, to carry-on, then fine. I don't see this as dishonest or inauthentic(and especially not in a harmful way), but I see it as necessary for reaching means and ends within established boundaries.

I have come to also expect that hardly anyone will really know who you are, but it is not something particular to being an INFJ - to me this is how life is. Most people do this, whether they are fully aware of it or not, and it makes a lot of sense. What is particular to the INFJ, imo, is the style and the level of cognizance that an INFJ has over these matters. The only types that I have felt totally authentic with, and who I felt totally understood by, are INTPs and INTJs. They actually can see me as I am, and it's totally clear. And it's an impersonal yet mutually understood form of acceptance too. Perhaps I could say INFJ too, but I don't know any other INFJs outside of the forum; but I get that vibe sometimes from other INFJs too. The only difference with INFJs(and sometimes with INTJs) is I get a feeling of not wanting to disturb them, and it's out of respect. [From an outside perspective] INFJs seem so focused on their perspective, and they could be right and often are, that I hesitate to share much because it feels like "they already know". Also, INFJs tend to get lost in the actual words or style being conveyed and can miss the message[and I confess of being guilty of this too]. But I do appreciate their patience and willingness at times to listen(which I'm thinking may be one of their greater strengths). But overall, I believe we are all, more or less, on our own having to navigate through life situations.

Another note: I also believe culture and cultural expectations play a huge role in this authenticity question, and this aspect doesn't get enough consideration, imo. I find that you can say the very same message in a number of different ways, but people will tend to understand it or care to hear it differently depending on the style and context of its delivery. Does changing your mode of expression change who you are or what you are about? Not really, but I think, similar to when translating from one language to another, a lot of the impact, flavor, and richness gets watered down or lost in the process of translation.
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This too.

It's strange, up until recently I didn't see the down side to the "I'm different than others/ unique and special" mindset that is a core tenant of the INFJ personality archetype.

It seems that people are feeling misunderstood because of negative social interactions with others or at the very least unsuccessful ones, where an attempt to connect and be understood was made but it failed. Then the conclusion is,

"Well, this is happening so often it's because I am difficult to understand."

Why can't it be,

"This is happening all the time because I'm having difficulty conveying myself in a way that others can connect with- and I am having difficulty relating to and understanding others."

There is a strong emphasis in this thought process that the INFJ understands others, sometimes that they understand others at a superior level to the way the person understands themselves. Other people just don't see how wise the INFJ is.

I joined this forum because that's exactly how I've felt myself, so I relate to the thought process and I'm not trying to "other" myself from it. But I am trying to challenge it.

The desire to hide oneself from others can easily be the result of wanting to avoid rejection. People often retreat socially when they are unable to fit in.

What's so strange about this whole thinking process is that we basically build an entire personality on the fact that we feel we don't fit in, and instead of viewing it as something we could change or improve, we view it as pathological. not only pathological but also saying that the reason we are not understood is because of how rare or different we are compared to others and almost feeling a sense of sadness or pride over it.

Was it to be accepted that there is some personal responsibility in this matter, that we chose to retreat socially, we ourselves make the conclusion that others can't understand instead of questioning if we are even having reasonable expectations in the first place, it's all very interesting for me to think about.

Although all of this behavior *makes sense*, and is usually an adaptive reaction to certain experiences in life, maybe trying to look at the situation from alternative perspectives would give insight and room from growth.
 
“Why can't it be,

"This is happening all the time because I'm having difficulty conveying myself in a way that others can connect with- and I am having difficulty relating to and understanding others."”

I like this empowering spin. I think we need to strive for this. And I have often been told to change my expectations.

Where I fail is still actually needing to be truly seen and appreciated for who I am and how I think. Not that I have to be right. It’s more like wanting to be appreciated for having another view of something.

I get compared to Sheldon Cooper from The Big Bang Theory. Imagine him trying to find enjoyment in the same things as those around him. He’s not on the same level, usually.

I see what you mean about how we can build a personality on the fact that we don’t fit in. That takes a lot of effort to override. For me, I now don’t even try to socialize unless I don’t feel that way because the emotional effort it would take to pretend that isn’t how I feel would be too great and I believe others will sense it.
 
Mind you, when someone else gets closer and talks back in my language? I feel almost in awe, it happens so rarely. One can almost know right away if you say something intelligent and it is answered with intelligence. This person will "see" more of me because we are communicating on the same level. I wasn't hiding anything, but I said something meaning to say so much more and what happens? It is almost like they pull up a chair and next thing we know we are sharing with each other openly things others may feel ineffable. I won't come back down for a long time, because I am soaring in the skies with them at my side.

I opened up in front of my wife and a new neighbor a few days back. A pair of kites flew by over us, and I was soooo happy to see them. 100' above us and going the other way, I whistled their whistle a few times. I normally don't do that around others, but they both turned around. I whistled again, and one flew toward my heart(I noticed them and was trying to communicate, and he was telling me he noticed me). He dropped down and did a fast swirl-like dive directly over my head at about 15'.
I watched looking straight up. The neighbor(per the wife) said "Wow". I looked back down as they flew by, and there was a mockingbird come to watch. I pointed at him, then just fell backwards onto the asphalt. I've almost put the cane back down.
Yes, it hurt. Hard to understand all this, but it better describes what I meant in the first place. Sorry if it sounds like I'm hiding. Bad choice of words.
 
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