How is Obamacare Working Out for You?

[Skarekrow]

Not to derail the thread but giving money or food to the homeless enables them not to seek services and basically stay homeless. I worked with the homeless for years.

You missed my larger point...
Programs to help the homeless have been consistently unfunded, or defunded by those claiming to follow the teachings of Christ.
If they had FUNDING and had good programs such as mental health, alcohol and drug treatment, and such then we wouldn’t have such a huge problem with it.
How many homeless have mental health issues? How many are Vietnam Vets who still are fighting PTSD?
My point was it is wrong to yank funding from those who need it most.

 

[muir]

You missed my larger point...
Programs to help the homeless have been consistently unfunded, or defunded by those claiming to follow the teachings of Christ.
If they had FUNDED and good programs such as mental health, alcohol and drug treatment, and such then we wouldn’t have such a huge problem with it.
How many homeless have mental health issues? How many are Vietnam Vets who still are fighting PTSD?
My point was it is wrong to yank funding from those who need it most.

I agree with you that money is not going to the right places in our society but i think it is more than a money issue

I think our culture itself leaves people feeling hollow

I think it is a vacuous culture where people lack meaning, purpose and a sense of community

Any 'programmes' or 'scheme's or 'initiatives' which are run within the current system are tantamount to tinkering around the fringes of the problem....and are usually geared towards dealing with the symptoms of the problem and not the root cause

We have to stop worshipping materiality as a society

At the moment we live in a system that puts PROFIT before people, the environment and the truth. We have to turn that round...a total shift in priorities

 

[problemz]

This has been a good conversation. I understand that the framework of communism versus capitalism is part of this conversation and that many "socialists" will think that their system is morally superior. That's fine. But what I really wanted to know was specific experiential data having to do with how this system is working for you and how you feel about it with boots on the ground detail. I work in a state college so am immured from the major problems. I have no idea. My coverage has remained basically the same. But many of my socialist friends are finding their rates tripled and are still worried about getting fined, and unable to protect themselves against the Draconian reach of Obama and his tentacles. I see him as a vast Cyclopsean octopus.

 

[muir]

This has been a good conversation. I understand that the framework of communism versus capitalism is part of this conversation and that many "socialists" will think that their system is morally superior. That's fine. But what I really wanted to know was specific experiential data having to do with how this system is working for you and how you feel about it with boots on the ground detail. I work in a state college so am immured from the major problems. I have no idea. My coverage has remained basically the same. But many of my socialist friends are finding their rates tripled and are still worried about getting fined, and unable to protect themselves against the Draconian reach of Obama and his tentacles. I see him as a vast Cyclopsean octopus.

I don't live in the states so i can't provide boots on the ground detial except second hand, so i'll take a back seat!

However i just want to clarify concerning what you are saying here about a 'communist v's capitalist' dynamic to this thing....its not really about either of those things!

The US is not a capitalist system or it would have let the banks fail and it would now let the insurance companies fail instead of helping them through obamacare....its not letting the market work

Neither is it a communist country either as the workers do not own and control the means of production...neither is this the aim of the people in the US who are often labelled 'communists' or 'socialists'

It is really an issue of centralisation v's decentralisation of power/control

So the guys behind obamacare are all about centralised control which is what people in the US call 'socialism'. What we are really seeing is a merger of state and corporate power as the government is helping out the banks and the insurance companies and the banks and the insurance companies are paying for the politicians careers/campaigns.

The most correct definition for this is 'FASCISM' but you will of course not hear anyone in the corporate media use that word because of its powerful connotations so they will instead missuse other terms to cloak the reality

 

[problemz]

Except for the crease in his trousers, I don't see Obama as having any specific competence. Never having been in the military, he's nevertheless the CIC. Never having been in the medical or insurance profession, he assumes that he knows what is best in each. He certain has high self-esteem. But no competence. His maw is everywhere and his paw is everywhere. I wish he'd go. But while's he's here, he is determined to make an impact, and that, he is doing.

 

[muir]

Except for the crease in his trousers, I don't see Obama as having any specific competence. Never having been in the military, he's nevertheless the CIC. Never having been in the medical or insurance profession, he assumes that he knows what is best in each. He certain has high self-esteem. But no competence. His maw is everywhere and his paw is everywhere. I wish he'd go. But while's he's here, he is determined to make an impact, and that, he is doing.

Its not him...he is just a front man

 

[Skarekrow]

Except for the crease in his trousers, I don't see Obama as having any specific competence. Never having been in the military, he's nevertheless the CIC. Never having been in the medical or insurance profession, he assumes that he knows what is best in each. He certain has high self-esteem. But no competence. His maw is everywhere and his paw is everywhere. I wish he'd go. But while's he's here, he is determined to make an impact, and that, he is doing.

Yes, yes...but of course....we should elect Captain Dumbass (Bush Jr.) back to power so he can fix it all, just like he did before...he was SO much better than a Harvard Law School educated professor who’s parents didn’t pay off his University to graduate him!
You have convinced me!
*smirk*

 

[Nixie]

Oh god, why can't I give two thumbs up to you @Skarekrow ? I'm almost in lurv because you even got that good "eff" you face too!

My insurance hasn't changed one bit. I would gather that you can trot out someone as an "example" of whatever agenda you wanted to push about Obamacare. But the truth would be in the bell curve and how many people it is working for in a reasonable manner.

 

[Lerxst]

You don't build a house by starting at the window frames and working your way out. That's what the ACA does; it tries to build this potentially rich ideal on top of a bunch of sticks and crap sinking into a puddle of mud.

All it will take is one Republican president to come along and you can kiss the ACA goodbye. Congress is already held by the Republicans and they already do whatever they can to stop Obama from passing any laws. Introduce one charismatic, intelligent candidate who doesn't choose a dingbat as a running mate and you can all kiss the ACA goodbye the year he takes office.

You can't just argue for or against the Affordable Care Act and not look at the bigger picture of the "whos" and the "whats". You have to start at the bottom and build your way up until you assemble a government/society capable of sustaining a socialized medical plan. Get rid of the "Capitalism is LIFE" mentality, remove corporate personhood from law, reduce the military budget, find alternatives to oil, cripple the lobbyists, create a self-sustaining economy, educate the public and THEN introduce socialized medicine.

That's why this will fail. That's why the ACA is a complete joke. The entire structure surrounding the ACA is a house of cards; once people aren't there to hold those cards up (Democrats), it will collapse. To add insult to injury, generations will look at it for years afterwards and claim "We tried socialized medicine and it doesn't work" and then continue down the same, self defeating path as before.

 

[Skarekrow]

You don't build a house by starting at the window frames and working your way out. That's what the ACA does; it tries to build this potentially rich ideal on top of a bunch of sticks and crap sinking into a puddle of mud.

All it will take is one Republican president to come along and you can kiss the ACA goodbye. Congress is already held by the Republicans and they already do whatever they can to stop Obama from passing any laws. Introduce one charismatic, intelligent candidate who doesn't choose a dingbat as a running mate and you can all kiss the ACA goodbye the year he takes office.

You can't just argue for or against the Affordable Care Act and not look at the bigger picture of the "whos" and the "whats". You have to start at the bottom and build your way up until you assemble a government/society capable of sustaining a socialized medical plan. Get rid of the "Capitalism is LIFE" mentality, remove corporate personhood from law, reduce the military budget, find alternatives to oil, cripple the lobbyists, create a self-sustaining economy, educate the public and THEN introduce socialized medicine.

That's why this will fail. That's why the ACA is a complete joke. The entire structure surrounding the ACA is a house of cards; once people aren't there to hold those cards up (Democrats), it will collapse. To add insult to injury, generations will look at it for years afterwards and claim "We tried socialized medicine and it doesn't work" and then continue down the same, self defeating path as before.

I actually don’t foresee it being taken down once it has been fully implemented....it’s like Medicare Part D....the people fought it....it was unfunded (and still is basically lol) but then all the old folks just loved it to death. I think it will be looked upon, if and when, there is Republican control as something they will “fix” for the good of all people...which will just be more lame rhetoric...they will remove the birth-control mandate and other shit like that...try again to defund Planned Parenthood...but I think overall the plan will stay broken as it is. I still have to say though, that I don’t think it is quite that bad...what is bad is the ability of health-care to cost so fucking much that people actually go BANKRUPT from their medical bills...to me, that is the lowest of the low...to destroy someone’s life while you, the insurance company fucks, suck each other off and hand out bonuses....all at the expense of those who have the least ability to do anything about it.
I think it will stay...then be “fixed” and then “fixed” again...the Dems. will fight for a single payer eventually, while the Reps. will fight on the side of the money and do the bidding of the health insurance lobby.
That’s my, possibly wrong prediction anyhow....lol.

 

[muir]

Yeah although i agree with everything you say in your post @Lerxst concerning the need to build proper foundations for these things, like [MENTION=5045]Skarekrow[/MENTION] i do not see the Republicans removing obamacare once it is in place

The reason for this is because i believe that despite all the theatre between these two parties they are essentially both taking their orders from the same place

This will be easily verifiable as at some point a republican government will come into power

 

[Skarekrow]

Except for the crease in his trousers, I don't see Obama as having any specific competence. Never having been in the military, he's nevertheless the CIC. Never having been in the medical or insurance profession, he assumes that he knows what is best in each. He certain has high self-esteem. But no competence. His maw is everywhere and his paw is everywhere. I wish he'd go. But while's he's here, he is determined to make an impact, and that, he is doing.

Just curious too problemz....

Have you been in the military?
Have you worked in the medical field?
Because I am former military and am in the medical profession.
But I still wouldn’t assume that makes me competent to run a country.

 

[problemz]

I am a lifelong academic who has never left school. I teach the Bible and Comedy.

 

[Skarekrow]

[video=youtube_share;UZHO6OyOGEM]http://youtu.be/UZHO6OyOGEM[/video]
A fair representation of you and your teaching style?

 

[problemz]

This was hilarious.

I have my moments, too.

 

[problemz]

The main thing is that any new program has to be sustainable. We now have a trillion dollars out in student debt, and the strain on the budget of this and other gimmes is causing the entire economy to collapse, and making business want to relocate and ship goods back in. ACA will further increase that burden, and the tightrope of regulations will make this a trickier thing for CEOs to maintain balance between debt and profit. Obamacare is 3000 pages in length. When we argue for years over the meaning of two words in the Constitution? This is going to be an abyss of judicial activism. It is an enormous new tax, as Roberts has put it. It may well finish off the country.

 

[Kanamori]

The main thing is that any new program has to be sustainable. We now have a trillion dollars out in student debt, and the strain on the budget of this and other gimmes is causing the entire economy to collapse, and making business want to relocate and ship goods back in. ACA will further increase that burden, and the tightrope of regulations will make this a trickier thing for CEOs to maintain balance between debt and profit. Obamacare is 3000 pages in length. When we argue for years over the meaning of two words in the Constitution? This is going to be an abyss of judicial activism. It is an enormous new tax, as Roberts has put it. It may well finish off the country.

The gimmes are the ones hoarding the finite money supply.

 

[problemz]

They will invest in new businesses if they are allowed to do so. Meanwhile, Obama has said that everyone could keep their insurance plan if they already had one. He lied. According to this month's Reason magazine, Obama said, "If you like your doctor, you can keep your doctor, period." It was a June 2009 meeting with the AMA. Obama may not have known that the exchanges that were put forward do not have truck with the more expensive and better (top) hospitals. Therefore, a lot of people will not get a doctor at all. They will be lucky to be able to find a physician's assistant.

On November 4, 2013, Politico reported that 3.4 million people had lost their insurance due to Obamacare.

Obama said people could keep their insurance at least 36 times on video.

The fact is that it isn't true. Did he just make a mistake?

He and Pelosi claimed it would create a half a million new jobs. Reason reports that joblessness will actually increase by .5 percent because many held on to jobs because of their insurance plan.

Obama said it would all be on time. It wasn't. On day 1, only six people were able to register. Obama's spokesmen claimed they had no numbers. Again, they were lying. They knew the number. Those who did register were immediately hacked.

Meanwhile, there's been an enormous diversion. Governor Christie's aides put some traffic cones on the George Washington Bridge. This appears to be an enormous diversionary tactic. Yes, it was a snafu for several hours on the bridge.

But meanwhile almost no one has lower premiums. Obama's claim was that the average family would pay $2500 less. It turns out most premiums have tripled. The penalty isn't huge.

It's only 95 dollars OR 1% of your income. If you make a billion dollars a year, therefore, you will pay a million dollars to the government. And what are they going to do with that money? Give it to Democratic committees? To Acorn activists?

Or maybe they will just spread it among the 16,000 new IRS agents that have been hired to orchestrate ACA - Another Catastrophic Act.

 

[Skarekrow]

They will invest in new businesses if they are allowed to do so. Meanwhile, Obama has said that everyone could keep their insurance plan if they already had one. He lied. According to this month's Reason magazine, Obama said, "If you like your doctor, you can keep your doctor, period." It was a June 2009 meeting with the AMA. Obama may not have known that the exchanges that were put forward do not have truck with the more expensive and better (top) hospitals. Therefore, a lot of people will not get a doctor at all. They will be lucky to be able to find a physician's assistant.

On November 4, 2013, Politico reported that 3.4 million people had lost their insurance due to Obamacare.

Obama said people could keep their insurance at least 36 times on video.

The fact is that it isn't true. Did he just make a mistake?

He and Pelosi claimed it would create a half a million new jobs. Reason reports that joblessness will actually increase by .5 percent because many held on to jobs because of their insurance plan.

Obama said it would all be on time. It wasn't. On day 1, only six people were able to register. Obama's spokesmen claimed they had no numbers. Again, they were lying. They knew the number. Those who did register were immediately hacked.

Meanwhile, there's been an enormous diversion. Governor Christie's aides put some traffic cones on the George Washington Bridge. This appears to be an enormous diversionary tactic. Yes, it was a snafu for several hours on the bridge.

But meanwhile almost no one has lower premiums. Obama's claim was that the average family would pay $2500 less. It turns out most premiums have tripled. The penalty isn't huge.

It's only 95 dollars OR 1% of your income. If you make a billion dollars a year, therefore, you will pay a million dollars to the government. And what are they going to do with that money? Give it to Democratic committees? To Acorn activists?

Or maybe they will just spread it among the 16,000 new IRS agents that have been hired to orchestrate ACA - Another Catastrophic Act.

Oh...I see....the rich are also the job creators...yes!
So where are the fucking jobs for all those who need them in this country? Oh that’s right...we have NAFTA....we have oversea’s factories...we have robots and computers...more money for the rich at the cost of the working-class.
THIS is why we need regulation.
Maybe Obama did lie...*shrug*, maybe the insurance lobby lied to him, who knows? What are we going to do about it now?
Now you are just twisting things...as far as the new jobs go...you have to give the market time to respond to demand that hasn’t even begun yet.
As far as those poor, poor, CEO’s who just cannot make it due to the oppressive regulations....two things - It’s their own goddamn fault that the regulations even need to be there because they are untrustworthy....and...it’s been the systematic DE-regulation that has brought us to such a lovely place economically. (once again, at the expense of the working class)
You want to talk about student debt too? Who the fuck deregulated that back in the 80’s I wonder? Could it be Ronald McReagan?
How has that worked out for everyone? It’s jumped somewhere around 5-600%...well...that’s right on track with the rise in wages isn’t it...oh, it isn’t? How strange.
Do you see where I’m going with this.
I hope those that make a billion dollars DO have to pay 1% out of their offshore account...shame on them for even hoarding that much money...what is the point of it? Give it away to the poor!
You always read about how philanthropic the rich are...it’s all bullshit....they don’t donate to programs that ACTUALLY HELP the poor and sick...they donate to colleges so their legacy is carried on...they donate to rich hospitals...they donate to political organizations.
What a load of shit.
I’m so tired of this Job-creator job-creator job-creator crap....they raped the American working class....destroyed their retirements....destroyed the jobs....yanked funding for them when they were down and out....had the American taxpayers bail them out without repaying them in many cases....meanwhile they are handing out bonuses a hundred times what some folks make in a year....they STILL haven’t CREATED the jobs problemz....wait I retract that...they haven’t created them in the US....the few jobs they came back to us with were the same ones that got destroyed only now at minimum wage...meanwhile they have actually made gains from the whole thing...the rich are even richer than they were before the market collapsed.
Job creators...what a load of horse-shit.

 

[muir]

Max Keiser and Stacy Herbert discuss 'wealth creation' and 'job creation' in the US:

[video=youtube;WprPFpdHyUw]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WprPFpdHyUw[/video]