How would you act differently if you knew....

[Eventhorizon]

[MENTION=2926]Bird[/MENTION]
I suppose there is a simple answer and a long answer to this. The simple answer is that it ties in with consciousness. Something that I have always been interested in. Also, while I am biologically alive, I have spent enough time thinking about the nature of consciousness to see myself as something more than just a physical body. I spend enough time in my own head and when I do, the physical world essentially leaves me for all intents because I am not focused on it. In a lot of ways, I sometimes feel as if I am more corporeal than physical. The POINT being, I dont believe this life is all there is. However if I did, I would be doing different things than I am now. It amazes me that other people dont see themselves acting differently.

Why do we put up with liar politicians? If I knew this was the only life there is I wouldnt. I would want to make sure they were punished to the full extent of the law. As it is, I assume there will be a way to make sure they are punished after they are dead.

Ah...see this is turning into the long answer and I am on my phone. Plus what I have typed is no doubt exceptionally boring.

 

[Lark]

EH, in relation to your views on consciousness, can I ask you, do you think this is something which develops over time or is it complete at the point of birth or conception?

I am very interested in this, I remember reading about the origin of superstitions about broken mirrors and seven years bad luck relating to Roman centurians beliefs that if you broke mirrors while your reflection was in them or efigies of yourself that you were destroying your soul and it would take seven years to grow back, I dont know if that means they did not believe that anyone younger than seven did not possess a soul but it would appear that they thought it was something which grew or developed as opposed to simply being there.

I have read about some scientism inspired beliefs about consciousness as soul which suggest that not everyone possesses a soul/consciousness or is capable of developing the same due to brain injury or disability. I dont know if that's related to Dawkin's views about aborting down syndrome babies or anything like that BTW.

 

[sprinkles]

EH, in relation to your views on consciousness, can I ask you, do you think this is something which develops over time or is it complete at the point of birth or conception?

I am very interested in this, I remember reading about the origin of superstitions about broken mirrors and seven years bad luck relating to Roman centurians beliefs that if you broke mirrors while your reflection was in them or efigies of yourself that you were destroying your soul and it would take seven years to grow back, I dont know if that means they did not believe that anyone younger than seven did not possess a soul but it would appear that they thought it was something which grew or developed as opposed to simply being there.

I have read about some scientism inspired beliefs about consciousness as soul which suggest that not everyone possesses a soul/consciousness or is capable of developing the same due to brain injury or disability. I dont know if that's related to Dawkin's views about aborting down syndrome babies or anything like that BTW.

This gets into the paradox of the heap because you'll never identify a specific point where one ceases to have a soul [given souls exist to begin with]

For example if I hit you over the head once, chances are you'll get away without permanent brain damage. If I hit you repeatedly, you could slowly develop cumulative brain injury - aka punch drunk syndrome. If I keep hitting you enough you might become vegetative eventually. But before that you'd likely become slowly and progressively more damaged and disabled.

Where exactly is the tipping point where you'd stop having a soul?

Also I remember that you don't care about my posts but this might be interesting to others, and I'm allowed to reply to you. So if you're going to complain, save it.

 

[Eventhorizon]

EH, in relation to your views on consciousness, can I ask you, do you think this is something which develops over time or is it complete at the point of birth or conception?

I am very interested in this, I remember reading about the origin of superstitions about broken mirrors and seven years bad luck relating to Roman centurians beliefs that if you broke mirrors while your reflection was in them or efigies of yourself that you were destroying your soul and it would take seven years to grow back, I dont know if that means they did not believe that anyone younger than seven did not possess a soul but it would appear that they thought it was something which grew or developed as opposed to simply being there.

I have read about some scientism inspired beliefs about consciousness as soul which suggest that not everyone possesses a soul/consciousness or is capable of developing the same due to brain injury or disability. I dont know if that's related to Dawkin's views about aborting down syndrome babies or anything like that BTW.

I cant answer this the way you want. I dont have facts on this, just ideas.

You have heard of quantum entanglement by now yes? Two particals intertwined where when one thing happen to one, it happens to the other regardless of distance? I think its possible the neurons in our heads are entangled with particals spread through the known universe and perhaps beyond. Our brains are kind of like radio tuners that pick up on the frequency of our "being" and tune it to a specific point... this reality. Its not that we are created upon physical birth, we simply get tuned in.

No proof of any of this. There have been times though when I have felt something much much larger then myself alone.

 

[Lark]

I cant answer this the way you want. I dont have facts on this, just ideas.

You have heard of quantum entanglement by now yes? Two particals intertwined where when one thing happen to one, it happens to the other regardless of distance? I think its possible the neurons in our heads are entangled with particals spread through the known universe and perhaps beyond. Our brains are kind of like radio tuners that pick up on the frequency of our "being" and tune it to a specific point... this reality. Its not that we are created upon physical birth, we simply get tuned in.

No proof of any of this. There have been times though when I have felt something much much larger then myself alone.

We're nearly always discussing ideas, so that's alright, yeah, I've heard of that and I kind of think its interesting.

I read a post on another forum some place from someone who believed that mankind and evolution on earth was an attempt by the cosmos to become conscious and that individual human beings were all channels for a cosmic something.

There's some of the more esoteric Jungian stuff that interests me for this very reason, his version of the conscious/unconscious, perhaps mind is the right word for it, I think is better than Freud's more simple tripartite ego, id and superego, although I know that there's debate about whether Freud wanted these concepts to be dogmatically asserted or not and I think a lot of Jung's mandela fixation was just odd.

Although his ideas about archetypes being channelled and lodged as complexes I think is a good one, I dont really think of archetypes as social constructs, ancestral memories or anything of that kind though but something more cosmic or indecipherably intrinsic, like behind most things when you examine them in depth its possible to perceive archetypes operating unconsciously. Its much more fundamental than things like individual character, social character or sociology.

I'm trying to remember the scientist who wrote about consciousness and suggested with more certainty than I'd read before of an afterlife, at least in the sense of the persistence of consciousness or near consciousness in a radically different state, it could have been Richard Fenamen (spelling) but I'm not sure.

 

[Bird]

@Bird
I suppose there is a simple answer and a long answer to this. The simple answer is that it ties in with consciousness. Something that I have always been interested in. Also, while I am biologically alive, I have spent enough time thinking about the nature of consciousness to see myself as something more than just a physical body. I spend enough time in my own head and when I do, the physical world essentially leaves me for all intents because I am not focused on it. In a lot of ways, I sometimes feel as if I am more corporeal than physical. The POINT being, I dont believe this life is all there is. However if I did, I would be doing different things than I am now. It amazes me that other people dont see themselves acting differently.

Why do we put up with liar politicians? If I knew this was the only life there is I wouldnt. I would want to make sure they were punished to the full extent of the law. As it is, I assume there will be a way to make sure they are punished after they are dead.

Ah...see this is turning into the long answer and I am on my phone. Plus what I have typed is no doubt exceptionally boring.

First; do you meditate? Based on your commentary about spending time in your head
and the world disappearing it strikes me as having reached enlightenment.

The reason that we put up with liar politicians is an issue that is not black and white.
Politicians, especially high up on the tree, are always backed by incredibly wealthy
corporations. This is why we put up with them; we lack adequate power to overthrow
the politicians because there are all these private parties with political interests that
are involved. It is not one person, it is thousands.

I see politicians as the faces of personal interest groups. There are a lot of people behind
the politician's position. However, we are presented with only the person. We do not see everyone
standing in single file behind him/her proffering up the funds to get him/her there in exchange for
what they want.

The law, similarly, is effected the same as political power. Ie: money talks and bullshit walks.
We do not live in a just world. In many ways justice is influenced by monetary gains. For example
a few months ago there was a teenage male that was driving drunk and killed someone and he got
off with an incredibly light sentence (I cannot recall a lot of the details) due to his parents being
extremely wealthy.

So even if we wanted to punish the politicans to the fullest extent of the law, it would be incredibly
minimal time. I don't know how familiar you are with the Watergate scandal and what happened to the
men involved but I can tell you very few of them spent more than 6 months in a resort-like "prison".

To get back to the original subject, I am still having a hard time understanding why it is you would
act differently. What would be the motivation? You only have the one life so you would act differently?
Why would having only one life influence you to act differently?

 

[Delta]

How would you act differently in this life if you knew this life was the only thing there was for you? That when you die, thats it nothing more?

Knew for sure? I would probably contemplate why I thought I was so sure... endlessly. Which goes against my leaning to muse but seek answers beyond the self. Generally only things which interest me exist so I would no doubt have the same interests and conduct myself in the same manner. My army of special loves would sustain me through what would clearly be yet another existential crisis, which I am getting to enjoy nowadays, not dread. So yeah, I would seek out the origin of why I had developed such a crystallized thought and compare and contrast with others who have experienced the same - but all of this wouldn't beat going to the cinema so I wouldn't be too concerned.

 

[ElizabethRose]

Well...the same way I am now I guess. Maybe I'd try a little harder but I do believe in afterlife and I don't think that's a reason to waste this one. I feel like it's a big misunderstanding I live my life for God (I screw up a lot) but I try and even if there's still an afterlife I want to experience everything and try everything and other than worldly stuff nothing's keeping me from that. It is nice to be comforted that even though I'll miss out on some things I'll get to experience them there. I guess this is just a long way of saying either way would be the same for me

 

[Barnabas]

that feeling when you've commented on a a thread and came up with a witty response and then found out you've already posted in the thread.

 

[wolkenkraetzer]

I would be unbelievably relieved.

 

[Artisan]

I wouldn't change 1 bit.

Though I assume it's good news for criminals.
And I know a lot of people are counting on some sort of karma or justice to happen in an after life.... So I would feel pretty bad for the people counting on that to give them a sense of peace.

 

[Eventhorizon]

First; do you meditate? Based on your commentary about spending time in your head
and the world disappearing it strikes me as having reached enlightenment.

The reason that we put up with liar politicians is an issue that is not black and white.
Politicians, especially high up on the tree, are always backed by incredibly wealthy
corporations. This is why we put up with them; we lack adequate power to overthrow
the politicians because there are all these private parties with political interests that
are involved. It is not one person, it is thousands.

I see politicians as the faces of personal interest groups. There are a lot of people behind
the politician's position. However, we are presented with only the person. We do not see everyone
standing in single file behind him/her proffering up the funds to get him/her there in exchange for
what they want.

The law, similarly, is effected the same as political power. Ie: money talks and bullshit walks.
We do not live in a just world. In many ways justice is influenced by monetary gains. For example
a few months ago there was a teenage male that was driving drunk and killed someone and he got
off with an incredibly light sentence (I cannot recall a lot of the details) due to his parents being
extremely wealthy.

So even if we wanted to punish the politicans to the fullest extent of the law, it would be incredibly
minimal time. I don't know how familiar you are with the Watergate scandal and what happened to the
men involved but I can tell you very few of them spent more than 6 months in a resort-like "prison".

To get back to the original subject, I am still having a hard time understanding why it is you would
act differently. What would be the motivation? You only have the one life so you would act differently?
Why would having only one life influence you to act differently?

I addressed this a bit earlier in the thread. Ill try to elaborate. Right now I conform to a good portion of societal rules. I am capable of far more in terms of acquiring wealth than I actually manifest in this world. To make a great amount of money you have to be willing to take from others (legally of course) with no concern as to their own outcome. Were I "unbound" so to speak, I am intelligent enough I believe i could make Warren Buffet and the like seem like a children running a lemonade stand. This is how I feel but of course Ill never prove it. In any case believing this life is the only consciousness you get would cause me to want to continue to live at all costs. Death is finality, there is no choice in it. In my mind, knowing you will die and that is the end...not fighting death in this situation is like committing suicide. I have the potential within me to fight it and possibly even win. If I know thats something I can do and I do not do it, doesnt that mean I have killed myself?

 

[blacklight]

How would you act differently in this life if you knew this life was the only thing there was for you? That when you die, thats it nothing more?

For me, this question is probably impossible to answer yet so tempting I cannot leave it even if my thoughts are conflicting.

First of all, I believe that this life is the only thing there is for me and when I die that's it and nothing more. And at this point I say believe. And believing so I'd say that there's nothing to change how I act. I'm not living my life and making my choices to get access to heaven after I die. Nor is the fear of hell preventing me to do bad things. Because I believe that every (conscious) life is unique I try to respect and value that the best I can. And this is most ultimate, most difficult and most conflicting issue in my life that is tearing me apart every day.

If you KNEW beyond all doubt there really was nothing more, most of you say you would not act any differently. That is very hard for me to understand.

In any case believing this life is the only consciousness you get would cause me to want to continue to live at all costs. Death is finality, there is no choice in it. In my mind, knowing you will die and that is the end...not fighting death in this situation is like committing suicide. I have the potential within me to fight it and possibly even win. If I know thats something I can do and I do not do it, doesnt that mean I have killed myself?

I can see your point and it really got me thinking about it. I think that knowing for sure would be too much to handle. I admit I sort of fear death. Not knowing when I die or when my loved ones die and being able to leave the back door open for the afterlife are things that probably keep me sane. Although if there was an afterlife our human life on the Earth would still end when we die so what would be the difference? I believe that if there's consciousness after death it's just the consciousness of peace. Nothing like the human life we have here. So there's no point in wasting your life here and now just because there might be an afterlife. Unless you think that your time on this planet is just a miserable journey towards the ultimate enlightenment and the Real Life.

 

[JGirl]

i do believe there is an afterlife, but i don't believe i have to behave a certain way in order to have it. i don't believe i even have to believe in it in order to have it.

 

[the]

If I somehow knew for a fact that this was it, then id be more open to self destruction and would behave in riskier ways. Reason is that I would rationalize that if I failed it wouldnt matter - there would be nothing left of me to feel the regret or guilt of failure.

Now that might not be how it turns out , im not sure how this knowledge would influence others and I would compensate for this accordingly.

 

[AUM]

Actually I would be more relieved knowing that there's no afterlife and this life is just it. However, the possibility of reincarnation or hell makes me a bit anxious because with the former scenario I'd be repeating all my mistakes over and over again getting absolutely nowhere, and the latter...well...you're just burning for an eternity. Doesn't sound fun at all lol Immediate oblivion and disappearing completely sounds a lot peaceful, imo.

 

[Barnabas]

How would you act differently in this life if you knew this life was the only thing there was for you? That when you die, thats it nothing more?

Now that I've made one half baked witty theological reply, and one joke reply I think I'm ready to actually answer the question.

the first thing that I noted when I actually started to think about your post, it's worded slightly different from the usual "If there are no gods, no afterlife, no anything, just our time on earth what would you do?" Instead it's only asking about the afterlife. So that got my mind turning, would I still bee a christian if there was, which I can safely say is a yes, the second thing is, what would Christianity look like with out firm doctrine on heaven and hell.

Most interpretations would be slightly modified on the vast majority of christian thought, the biggest one however would be a continuation of the concept of physical kingdom with a physical king as the end game of theology and in some ways that's already represented in the text. Most things like the death and the Crucifixion of Jesus stay the same, their meaning would be slightly changed. You could still have sin, and still have an atoning sacrifice but instead of that atonement allowing us stand in the presence of God, it would allow God to be present with us here on earth. It would make the nature of sin not to be mostly a spiritual separation but instead would focus on the physical separation. Another thing to note with this theology is that when God comes back, we don't get to have immortal bodies so that even when that relationship with God is repaired we'd still suffer a physical death.

Core tenants stay the same, still a huge focus on evangelism, we'd be preparing people to stand in the presence of God when he eventually returns, still a focus of hope because we'd still be focused on building a new better perfect world for us and our children's children. And we'd want other to be taken out of the old decaying world that we'll be outside of God's kingdom. If anything there might be more of a rush to get the work done because we only have this life to build. we don't get to lounge around in heaven forevermore after we're done and the work we do we'll be able to see it's affects while were still alive if that kingdom does come before we die.


So all in all I don't think I'd change that much, maybe a little for the better, but morally and philosophically it doesn't present a real challenge to my existing world view.







TL/DR: I think Christianity would survive with minimal changes to core doctrine if the concepts of hell and heaven were removed from scripture and theology, which means my life really wouldn't be that different.

 

[Kevin 5678]

For me it's not like i act different, i just trying to adjust my personality with the outer situation

 

[Eventhorizon]

Now that I've made one half baked witty theological reply, and one joke reply I think I'm ready to actually answer the question.

the first thing that I noted when I actually started to think about your post, it's worded slightly different from the usual "If there are no gods, no afterlife, no anything, just our time on earth what would you do?" Instead it's only asking about the afterlife. So that got my mind turning, would I still bee a christian if there was, which I can safely say is a yes, the second thing is, what would Christianity look like with out firm doctrine on heaven and hell.

Most interpretations would be slightly modified on the vast majority of christian thought, the biggest one however would be a continuation of the concept of physical kingdom with a physical king as the end game of theology and in some ways that's already represented in the text. Most things like the death and the Crucifixion of Jesus stay the same, their meaning would be slightly changed. You could still have sin, and still have an atoning sacrifice but instead of that atonement allowing us stand in the presence of God, it would allow God to be present with us here on earth. It would make the nature of sin not to be mostly a spiritual separation but instead would focus on the physical separation. Another thing to note with this theology is that when God comes back, we don't get to have immortal bodies so that even when that relationship with God is repaired we'd still suffer a physical death.

Core tenants stay the same, still a huge focus on evangelism, we'd be preparing people to stand in the presence of God when he eventually returns, still a focus of hope because we'd still be focused on building a new better perfect world for us and our children's children. And we'd want other to be taken out of the old decaying world that we'll be outside of God's kingdom. If anything there might be more of a rush to get the work done because we only have this life to build. we don't get to lounge around in heaven forevermore after we're done and the work we do we'll be able to see it's affects while were still alive if that kingdom does come before we die.


So all in all I don't think I'd change that much, maybe a little for the better, but morally and philosophically it doesn't present a real challenge to my existing world view.







TL/DR: I think Christianity would survive with minimal changes to core doctrine if the concepts of hell and heaven were removed from scripture and theology, which means my life really wouldn't be that different.

Interesting. So you are fine with building that kingdom but not being a part of it in the end.

 

[Eventhorizon]

Actually I would be more relieved knowing that there's no afterlife and this life is just it. However, the possibility of reincarnation or hell makes me a bit anxious because with the former scenario I'd be repeating all my mistakes over and over again getting absolutely nowhere, and the latter...well...you're just burning for an eternity. Doesn't sound fun at all lol Immediate oblivion and disappearing completely sounds a lot peaceful, imo.

So not knowing anything about you at this point I have to ask, you currently believe that living in a hell after this life is a possibility?