I need to hear from the females of this forum.

[Blind Bandit]

I pretty agree with dragon on everything he said. God for bid men aren't the ones with the problem here. God knows women are perfect and the men are the ones with all the problems.

Call me sexist I don't care. I'm sick of women simply thinking they have it tougher than men. If anything everyone is screwed when comes to dating and love. I'm sick of women down playing a mans struggle to walk the line of assertive but not asshole. And nice not assholes watching while women fall over themsevles to help the trouble cases.

So thats that I'm stepping out at the women will now step in and lynch me for accuses them of being wrong.

BB

PS: thirtiesgirl You just reduced every man talking to a women on subway to a rapist. I'm sorry but you have no room talk about generalization when you make a comment like that. Just because I and some friends got jumped by a guy outside a local bar and (my birthday last year the guy was angry all night for no real reason) doesn't mean every bar I go I will get hit by someone. Nor dose that mean every guy who I talk to outside of bar, has a problem with me or my friends. So again if you going to generalize to that degree don't slam the men of this forum for doing the same. Or being angry. With women talking about them like that I'm surprised more men simply shun women for good.

 

[Jack]

Read the blog post on Shrodinger's Rapist (the link I posted above) and maybe you'll begin to get it.

Yes, it sounded like a long-winded way of suggesting what I did in five words.

 

[the]

So we're back to "bad" guys...only with a new definition of bad.

Well, to be fair, guys (good guys) also date "bad" girls and get abused emotionally in the relationship.

to be honest, I would not date a man who has a lower self-esteem than me, and my self esteem is HUGE! I like a confidant man who can carry his own weight. But I wouldn't date an arrogant fu**tard who's nothing but an empty shell. My man will have to be well developed emotionally and intellectually, which is rare to find.

*has another epiphany as to why she's still single*

Back to Barnabas' question, I never dated "bad" men. I stay away when I sniff a bad seed. I have dated one good man, but I don't consider it a relationship because circumstances did not allow for it to last long. However, I was never subject to emotional abuse in a relationship. I have in a friendship tho, but that's because he came off as a completely different person when I first met him, and then I got to know the real side of him, and when I did, I didn't want to give up on him so easily, but things are over now. There's only so much one can do.

I have never felt inferior, or notl worth a good man. If they weren't so shy and hidden all the time, I wouldn't mind having one right now as a matter a fact. lol!

Jokes aside, I think it's hard to tell if someone is good or bad at the beginning, and it depends on what you consider good or bad. So really, relationships are nothing but trial and error, and a lil bit of faith.

Mmmm what I was really getting at was that the so called good guys really arent so good. There arent any truly good guys or girls. Its just wishful thinking. Everyone is a screwed up somehow. Its just a matter of time til you find out what it is.

 

[Matariki]

I pretty agree with dragon on everything he said. God for bid men aren't the ones with the problem here. God knows women are perfect and the men are the ones with all the problems.

Call me sexist I don't care. I'm sick of women simply thinking they have it tougher than men. If anything everyone is screwed when comes to dating and love. I'm sick of women down playing a mans struggle to walk the line of assertive but not asshole. And nice not assholes watching while women fall over themsevles to help the trouble cases.

So thats that I'm stepping out at the women will now step in and lynch me for accuses them of being wrong.

BB

Male or Female. We are both human, and both in the same boat.
Overall, these days women get it as equally tough as men (depending on the country and religion etc.) There are plenty of women out there that are assholes. You can trust me on that (although you probably already knew that).

Ok, now I'm in the same boat as you.
Let all hell brake loose.

 

[Roger]

NO man is Mr.Right or no woman is Miss. Right. Simple!

I have decided to give true love and understanding to my partner. So have pure heart and intentions. The woman who needs this all things, we will come in contact and will live a happy life with together. off course, marriage too.

 

[thirtiesgirl]

Call me sexist I don't care. I'm sick of women simply thinking they have it tougher than men. If anything everyone is screwed when comes to dating and love. I'm sick of women down playing a mans struggle to walk the line of assertive but not asshole. And nice not assholes watching while women fall over themsevles to help the trouble cases.

I've yet to hear any woman in this thread, or any woman I personally know, denigrate a man's struggle in the balance between being confident and assertive and being an asshole. This is where the good men are found, trying to walk that line. Any intelligent woman knows that. The fact that you think that's what we're doing here... well, I'm sorry, but you can't play the victim card with me. If that's what you want to do, take that stale old deck of cards and find yourself a different table to play. This house is bust.

PS: thirtiesgirl You just reduced every man talking to a women on subway to a rapist. I'm sorry but you have no room talk about generalization when you make a comment like that. Just because I and some friends got jumped by a guy outside a local bar and (my birthday last year the guy was angry all night for no real reason) doesn't mean every bar I go I will get hit by someone. Nor dose that mean every guy who I talk to outside of bar, has a problem with me or my friends. So again if you going to generalize to that degree don't slam the men of this forum for doing the same. Or being angry. With women talking about them like that I'm surprised more men simply shun women for good.

At no point did I or Phaedra Starling say that "every man talking to a woman on the subway is a rapist." What we're saying is that when a man who a woman doesn't know approaches her to talk, she sees him as a potential rapist. I know you're intelligent enough to understand that words actually mean things, so I think you can clearly see the difference between "all men are rapists" and "all men are potential rapists." That word potential is pretty powerful and has a lot of meaning.

Instead of trying to understand things from the perspective of women who are openly telling you that we live in a culture of violence and that when we're approached by a man we don't know on the subway, at the bus stop, in the bookstore, wherever we may be, we don't know your intentions, you whip out that victim card again. Boo-hoo. Cry me a river.

Allow me to quote from Ms. Starling's blog post again:

When you approach me in public, you are Schr

 

[acd]

I dare you to test me.

I like you.

 

[thirtiesgirl]

I like you.

Heh, thanks. You're one of the few. :w: Apparently I should be "shunned" for my opinions.

 

[Tamagochi]

Your viewpoint of women is very limiting and, dare I say, sexist. I'm trying to keep a good sense of humor about it, which leads me to believe that the only reason you wrote this stuff is because the patriarchy made you do it. It's the only excuse I'll believe. I can't imagine that I'm reading this kind of crap on an internet forum in 2010. :der:

Well actually I do not need excuses to say what's on my mind and it is your problem to accept a different viewpoint. I believe that you have misunderstood most of my previous message.

A woman dressed in a short skirt or acting provocatively does not mean she's really interested in a man nor that she's psychologically damaged. It's just a sign of her being comfortable in her own skin. What I meant are actual cases when a woman sends very clear signs of availability (like changing her behaviour in front of me, initiated flirting etc.) without any effort on my side. It has happened to me on several occasions and in all of them I have learned that she had some deep insecurities about herself.

I do acknowledge that there can be cases when a hot and confident woman initiates a relationship with a guy she likes and they live happily ever after. Never happened to me though :noidea:

 

[VH]

I've even been told that women are attracted to men who act stupid because that is demonstrating to women that the man has more testosterone, and by this action he is demonstrating to the woman that he has good genes because they can withstand the toxicity of the testosterone. In other words, I've been told that women are biologically attracted to stupid men. The person who told me this had a PH.D. in psychology and taught social psychology (it is supposedly empirically based, but I have no idea what study). I may have also heard it from a Ph.D. biologist but I can't remember.

This is a mostly accurate assessment of studies done on the subject, which have been numerous. Here are the high points from these studies...

Women are attracted to men with high testosterone because it amplifies their own testosterone levels. Women also exhibit the same high testosterone levels when in love and when in lust. In fact, the levels are so similar that it has been clinically proven that a lot of women can't tell the difference between lust and love. Ironic huh? Even more ironic is the fact that when men fall in love, their testosterone levels drop (explaining why an otherwise macho tough guy will suddenly start holding a woman's purse, etc.) Additionally, women have been proven to have about one tenth of the resistance to testosterone that men have, meaning it takes ten times as much testosterone to make a man begin to exhibit the same reactions to testosterone (increased libido, competitive, violent impulses, etc.) Which means men are designed to give off testosterone pheromones that elevate women's testosterone levels enough to spike them into lust/love, and the higher a man's testosterone levels are, the more intense this reaction is going to be.

Now, to address the 'stupid guys'... Testosterone does in fact tend to make guys act stupid. But, the inference is that women are attracted to stupid guys, and that's not the case. They're attracted to the testosterone. When this is found in a guy who can also stimulate a woman's testosterone production from within by making her feel his confidence and strength of personality as well as meeting her sensibilities for what she's looking for in a mate, not just via an empathic chemical response, the effect is exponential. There are a lot more factors in getting a woman to develop testosterone spikes within herself than just excreting pheromones.

In fact (and this one blew my mind when I found it out) women are MUCH more attracted to female pheromones than male pheromones on a man. Why? Competition instinct. Women have an instinct to compete with one another for the best mates. (My INTJ best friend, who is a woman, always tells me "Women hate other women more than they love men" as a reminder to how powerful the competition instinct is in them.) When a woman encounters a man with female pheromones on him, this triggers her competition instinct which amplifies her testosterone levels to help her compete.

Crazy how much our biology plays into all of this.

Does this mean that our conscious minds are not a factor in the process? Of course not. But, it does mean that our physiology strongly influences us, male and female.

In fact, as disgusting as it is, this chemical interaction of pheromones is the biggest reason why batterred women stay with their abusers. When they are attacked, their survival instincts kick in and produce more testosterone, making the women feel as if they love these men. Nature is a real bitch sometimes, but the evolutionary reason for this is sound. In the times before civilization, women were extremely vulnerable to predators, bleeding 25% of the time, not to mention how vulnerable they were during pregnancy and child reering. It is instinctive for a woman to seek a mate that is strong enough to protect her during these times. In fact, it's a biological imperative. And the quickest sign of strength in a male is strong levels of testosterone. From there, the female instinct is to test the male to make sure he's capable of protecting her, and then use her behaviors to convince him to do so. Obviously, women are not slaves to these instincts, but these instincts are as much a factor in women as the urge to be violent and spread their seed to as many women is in men. Clearly human beings have evolved to a point where we are in more control of ourselves than our instincts, but to assume those instincts are not there is just plain foolish. Evidence of it is all around us... when people act stupid.

Heh, thanks. You're one of the few. :w: Apparently I should be "shunned" for my opinions.

Nah, we like you lots. Just keep in mind you're on a forum for F types. People are going to have strong opinions from time to time, which logically means that people are going to strongly disagree from time to time.

Also, are you sure you're not an INFP? I love INFPs, so I have a keen eye to spot them, and the way you write and think seems a lot like one.

 

[Faye]

I don't need to determine it. It's obvious by your generalization that "all women" expect to be approached first and won't make the first move. Rather than take my word that there are women out there who will approach you, and that it might just be your own generalizations that are keeping you from properly reading women's signals, you choose to second guess me. I think I might know something about the way women think since I am, after all, a woman. I'm also a tad bit older than you and have a bit more experience in the dating scene. But rather than trust my experience, you choose to lead with the headstrong attitude of youth. More power to you. I hope you learn much from your failures.



Ah, now I see where the problem lies when it comes to meeting women. You seem to have misplaced your sense of humor.



You're obviously going to the wrong parties. And again, you're generalizing. There's that attitude again that "all women" behave in this or that way. Perhaps if you open your mind a little and realize that no, "all women" do not behave in one specific way, you might just be open to meeting someone who is receptive to you. She'll obviously have to have no sense of humor, though. I don't think it would work out if she did.



This is a cultural construct and again, another generalization. Yes, it's true that many women expect a guy to take initiative because they like to uphold the cultural construct. But there are just as many women willing to buck that trend and go after what they want.



You're not a careful reader. Not once in the examples I quoted does Ms. Starling indicate that the guy has any other intention aside from approaching a woman to talk. What she's sharing in her blog piece is what goes on in a woman's head when a guy approaches to talk. Again, rather than taking her at face value and realizing that, as a woman, she just might have some insight into what we're thinking when a guy we don't know approaches us (i.e., that any unfamiliar guy could be a potential danger to us), you're second guessing and not giving a woman the benefit of the doubt. Starling and I am telling you: take us at face value. You might just learn something and have better relationships with women if you do. It might make it much easier to find that elusive "One."

1. I know there are outliers. In spite of that fact, I have to deal with the "in general" crowd until they are found.
2. You use generalizations just as much as I do, if only because you like to speak for all women because you are one.
3. I'm sorry, but this isn't a humorous subject for many young men and women. Don't badger me over humor in this thread; humor is misplaced here. There is nothing funny about not finding love.
4. If women believe that every man who approaches them is a potential rapist, then they should be far more afraid of the men that they actually do know. See: date rape.


Like I said, I don't have a problem talking with women. The majority of my friends are female. I just haven't found many who I think it would work out with so I lose interest and don't ask; the problem is mostly finding the right person.

Also, here is the problem with finding that right person.
-Most of the good ones are taken.
-Of the remainder, most just want sex. Relationships have become uncool.
-Then you have the socially conservative/super religious ones. Sometimes they get lucky and find a guy who feels the same, but I think there are more females than males in this group. I kind of feel sorry for them because they sometimes end up spending a lot of time alone.

The culture toward dating for 20 somethings is horrible now, especially if you are an INFJ. Women are expect to "put themselves out there" by wearing overly revealing clothing and being flirty as hell; men are expected to be cocky bros. A lot of intelligent women hide their intelligence because it isn't considered socially acceptable for them, and they understandably want to be liked. This is the age of online sex hookups and the fear of intimacy. If you want a loving relationship, sorry and good luck.

Also, I really hope that I'm not going to bars or am on the dating scene when I am 40. That would be my personal failure.

 

[Billy]

Its probably just youth...

Girls dont have the same problem boys do in general... girls can get laid, they learn this early on. So they tend to be more active in dating then boys their age do.

From what I have seen and In my own personal experience, girls don't really know what they want until they start hitting their mid 20s and even then they can be confused. Before that age, before the experience they tend to date what they find attractive, looks, strength, confidence all play a part.

Those are shallow reasons for liking a guy. period. But you gotta do that a few times before you know you need more then just a pretty face and a six pack and a nice car.

Its the same for boys sort of... I dated women that were emotionally destructive for me for a long time, mostly because they were hot and they knew it and I liked that. So they had a callous way of treating me, it hurt me, I had to learn that some women are poison.

Now I know that I need to be attracted enough, but need a lot more in common then just chemistry. Goals, ideals, principles, etc need to sync up for it to work right.

But how can you know all that until you have dated people who were bad for you?

you cant, you need experience.

So no, I dont agree with the retarded shit said in the OP about not being good enough. Thats sounds silly.

 

[894tt3h9]

In response to the original post- I've never felt like I've not been good enough. I think women who think they're not good enough or who are undeserving of their Mr. Right have some delusions about their character, or they really need to take a close look at who they are as a person and figure out why that may be. As someone who believes that everyone is deserving of love and companionship, it's hard for me to tolerate people who feel that sorry for themselves in terms of love.

Yes, sometimes women make terrible choices in men, but a lot of times men make terrible choices in women. Sometimes there's an initial connection and you go with it on impulse and that can get you dumped really quick when things go cold. It's not that these guys are trying to be assholes or hurt these women, or vice versa, it's just part of the dating game.

I think that if you have to go through several bad relationships to find the right one, then there's nothing wrong with that. How else are you going to know how right someone is for you before you figure out how wrong so many others were?

I don't think it's as complex an issue as many people believe it to be.

 

[JohnDoe]

Thirtiesgirl: it has been proven over and over that statistically rape is likely to be committed by someone you know: a friend, a relative, that guy you are going out with because your friend said he is the greatest guy in the world. The S Rapist argument is the most demeaning argument in the world because it specifically ignores this fact in an effort to demonize men. You are no more likely to be raped by a random guy then you are a friend. People just don't like admitting this fact because then they'd have to realize that their friends are potential rapists... and you are capable of picking friends better then that right? Are you really that naive that you believe your friends can't hurt you? That because you call them your friend they are less likely to rape or beat you? Do people really believe that most friends have your best interests at heart? Or do you just choose to believe that because you can't handle the reality of the situation: friends are just as likely to hurt you as strangers, maybe moreso. After all, I bet you trust your friends. Makes it a lot easier for them.

(Added on edit after next post): For the record, I'm arguing that you should be consistent. If you want to err on the conservative side of risk assessment that is fine, but you should also be linking a blog about how you shouldn't trust your friends in that case.

 

[enfp can be shy]

Heh, thanks. You're one of the few. :w: Apparently I should be "shunned" for my opinions.

I like you too!

I like the whole sexist debate going on here, which is soooo doomed. There were human societies in which women were the warriors, hunters and protectors of men. There are primates with females being the dominant sex. There are still tribes with matriarchy, or pure sex-equality.

I guess for lions something went wrong and the part between their legs didn't work as intended, so their females got to do all the "man's work" and their males got to do all the "female's work". I find it more interesting to analyze the personal development of those who are more inclined to support such superstitions and traditions zealously (whatever those prejudices happen to be in the corresponding generation). Quite amusing! Perhaps it is perceived as social "adequacy" and righteousness.

 

[VH]

You are no more likely to be raped by a random guy then you are a friend.

85% of all violent crime, be it murder, rape, assault, or otherwise is committed by someone with an established emotional connection (aka relationship) to the victim.

In other words, if you are attacked you are almost 6 times more likely to be attacked by someone you know than not.

 

[JohnDoe]

85% of all violent crime, be it murder, rape, assault, or otherwise is committed by someone with an established emotional connection (aka relationship) to the victim.

In other words, if you are attacked you are almost 6 times more likely to be attacked by someone you know than not.

If you are a victim of a violent crime you are almost 6 times more likely to be attacked by someone you know then not.

It is not entirely clear to me that that implies that for any specific person this holds to be true, hence I went with a weaker statement. I think the take away is that ANYONE can be a rapist. Pretending that the primary danger is people you don't know dramatically increases your odds of getting raped.

 

[thirtiesgirl]

Well actually I do not need excuses to say what's on my mind and it is your problem to accept a different viewpoint.

Hon, there's a big difference in accepting a different viewpoint and reading sexist crap. I don't have to accept that, regardless of what you might think, and your expectation that I do tells me a lot about your feelings about women.

A woman dressed in a short skirt or acting provocatively does not mean she's really interested in a man nor that she's psychologically damaged. It's just a sign of her being comfortable in her own skin. What I meant are actual cases when a woman sends very clear signs of availability (like changing her behaviour in front of me, initiated flirting etc.) without any effort on my side. It has happened to me on several occasions and in all of them I have learned that she had some deep insecurities about herself.

Thanks for explaining. I understand a little better now. The over-generalizations and sexist bullshit continue, though. What you're saying now is that if a woman behaves one way with you and then behaves another, that means she's emotionally damaged? So, for example, you're hanging out together and she's being friendly to you and then 10 minutes later she starts acting flirty towards you, getting your poor little head all confused and stuff? That means she's emotionally damaged? And you'd like to maintain this is true for all women?

Consider this in the scenario I illustrated above: so you're hanging out with your woman friend and you and she are being friendly. Then she starts flirting with you and you have no idea why. Maybe you just said something incredibly intelligent (I'm willing to suspend my disbelief here for the sake of the argument); maybe you just said something incredibly perceptive about Blink 182 which is, like, her favorite band in the world; maybe you're wearing a new shirt that really sets off your eyes. Whatever the case may be, she suddenly sees something different in you, decides she could like you as more than just a friend and starts flirting with you. Do these sound like reasonable possibilities? They do to me, and have nothing whatsoever to do with emotional damage.

Just because you've had one or two experiences with women who behave this way and it turns out they also happen to be "damaged" (a 'diagnosis' I'm not so willing to believe, coming, as it does, from a guy who doesn't seem to have a lot of experience with women), it doesn't make it true for all women. And the fact that you keep insisting it does tells me more about your perception of women than you might be wanting to tell.

 

[JohnDoe]

Consider this in the scenario I illustrated above: so you're hanging out with your woman friend and you and she are being friendly. Then she starts flirting with you and you have no idea why. Maybe you just said something incredibly intelligent (I'm willing to suspend my disbelief here for the sake of the argument); maybe you just said something incredibly perceptive about Blink 182 which is, like, her favorite band in the world; maybe you're wearing a new shirt that really sets off your eyes. Whatever the case may be, she suddenly sees something different in you, decides she could like you as more than just a friend and starts flirting with you. Do these sound like reasonable possibilities? They do to me, and have nothing whatsoever to do with emotional damage.

You seem to have trouble differentiating reasonable with likely. People's emotions are not logic gates. You don't go "oh that discussion about blink 182 was so perceptive that I'm going to fall for you." Falling/liking someone is not a logical decision. Plenty (most? all?) people are damaged. Sorry, no one is a perfect new car.

 

[thirtiesgirl]

Nah, we like you lots. Just keep in mind you're on a forum for F types. People are going to have strong opinions from time to time, which logically means that people are going to strongly disagree from time to time.

Again with the missing humor. I really wasn't being serious and thought it was pretty obvious. Whose funny bone needs a tune-up here, yours or mine?

I have no problem with disagreements, but I'm not willing to back down on this issue. I'm not just going to shut up and take it, allow people to write things like "women should be shunned" for choosing to express their opinion and talk about personal safety. I don't like it when boys think it's ok to behave that way because it's not. It's really, really not.