I need to hear from the females of this forum.

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No, I don't like people who are mean to me or anyone else. They make me angry, so I would never date someone who I considered to be 'terrible'.
It could be a matter of self-esteem, or maybe a need for drama in their lives, but a lot of women do go for arrogant or abusive partners. To be honest, I've never understood it.
(But maybe nowadays, they feel they should so they fit in with their friends and can complain about their boyfriends together? I don't know how those kind of people work, but they do exist.)
 
I know this is a feedback thread from the ladies perspective, just wanted to drop a pebble into the pond. First of all I tip my hat to all you fine ladies that refuse to settle for less than you deserve.

Any woman who is wonderful enough to truly care for a man with all her heart and constantly strives to make herself a better person deserves an equally wonderful man. Nobody is ever going to be perfect and the crap that the media and entertainment industry tries to spoon feed us and make us feel like less of a man or woman is complete garbage.

I also feel that no man or woman can be "fixed", they can be bandaged and eventually those wounds might heal, but more often than not those old wounds will re open. Truly fixing a problem within oneself will come from professional help or if you possess the strength and fortitude to handle it of your own accord.
 
trial and error.

along with undeveloped Ni....I think.
 
From my experience, some girls tend to "friend zone" good guys because these guys appear not attractive enough, not interesting enough, etc. for them. A lot of girls seek excitement in a relationship rather than stability (a lot of guys do too!) and so they end up with the "bad" boys. I am not sure whether or not this has anything to do with self-esteem.

this has happened to me :/
 
Sometimes a guy seems great for months, then ends up being a douche or a bastard. How are we to tell? No one is obvious and fully figured out/revealed in a week or 2.

Sorry I just don't believe this. People tell you exactly who they are in the first hour or two that you meet them. You may choose to ignore them in the interest of giving them a fair chance or not jumping to conclusions or because you want to believe in your fantasy about them, but people universally tell you who they are if you are willing to listen.
 
Sorry I just don't believe this. People tell you exactly who they are in the first hour or two that you meet them. You may choose to ignore them in the interest of giving them a fair chance or not jumping to conclusions or because you want to believe in your fantasy about them, but people universally tell you who they are if you are willing to listen.

That's a very INFJ thing to say :) Generally speaking, people don't pick up on all the subtleties that quickly, actually.
 
Well I dont think the good guys are all that good. they are just bad in a different way and are good at hiding their flaws. I mean what kind of guy waits around all his adolescence while his future woman gets used and abused just so that he can rescue her once she has a self esteem lower than his?


naturally doesnt apply to everyone sorry to derail


but i could still be on to something!

that's not fair to say. I'm one of those "good" guys. from my point of view, before I date seriously, I want to have a career in order, a nice place, and be the full package, so she doesn't have to worry about any of those things. I hope you were just joking about us guys being wimps. You are probably not the type of girl that we will end up marrying anyways =). I know many hard working family type guys like me, and the ones that are in long term relationships are with girls who don't necessarily have low self esteem, but just don't date losers because they have enough self respect. We're the INFJ forum so we're supposed to have good intuition about people. If girls date losers, don't blame it on the losers.
 
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I also agree with this, going off my previous statement. A lot of the times a guy might actually be "a good guy", but the ex potrays him in a negative way. This happens with guys too-- you know every guy has at least one "psycho ex".

omigosh so true =). want to exchange crazy ex stories?
 
My ex proclaimed he was a good guy, he actually was a douche though. Many people do indeed exaggerate things after a bad relationship, that doesn't mean you can automatically lump everyone into the same grouping.
There are genuine nice guys out there, but more often then not they are simpering, delusional dickheads in disguise.
 
that's not fair to say. I'm one of those "good" guys. from my point of view, before I date seriously, I want to have a career in order, a nice place, and be the full package, so she doesn't have to worry about any of those things. I hope you were just joking about us guys being wimps. You are probably not the type of girl that we will end up marrying anyways =). I know many hard working family type guys like me, and the ones that are in long term relationships are with girls who don't necessarily have low self esteem, but just don't date losers because they have enough self respect. We're the INFJ forum so we're supposed to have good intuition about people. If girls date losers, don't blame it on the losers.

I definitely agree that there are "good guys"---genuinely so out there. It's just they're a lot rarer to find :P. But when you find one, you know you've found one for sure. Dicember, you're right about that fact that as INFJs we should be intuitive enough to be able to know the difference...at least that's the case for me. I intuitively knew tht I had to be very careful in choosing my first boyfriend because it'd either make or break me and I made a good choice...

My ex proclaimed he was a good guy, he actually was a douche though. Many people do indeed exaggerate things after a bad relationship, that doesn't mean you can automatically lump everyone into the same grouping.
There are genuine nice guys out there, but more often then not they are simpering, delusional dickheads in disguise.

Well, this probably is the case with a lot of people. But you have to remember the people who go on advertising themselves as "good people" are really not or have a large ego ( usually doesn't pair off well with a "good person.") The good guys I find, are humble about who they are---but know that they are fiiinee. I want to settle for the good guy that isn't door-mat good but one that knows self worth. The trick is having a good eye!
 
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It was a counseling related class(not sure which one), My roomate asked a question why young women seem to always choose to date a few terrible boyfriends before they find Mr. Right, why would they choose such obviously bad people to have relationships with.

He got one responce, one young lady replied "Because we don't feel like were good enough".

Does this ring true for any of our female members? explain?

Not true for me in the least. I can't tell you the number of times I have heard some version of 'you are hard to please' from a man.

I explain this in this way and this is probably why I would guess. Mr.X is just not willing to put in the effort. I won't hang around a dipwad and I have high expectations. Am I going to lower my standards and expectations, haha, heck no. Why would I? If I don't feel good about myself in the company of Mr.X, I spend less and less time with him.

For example, tardiness; if they are late by more than 7 minutes without the courtesy of a text or call. FAIL! I am gone on the 8th minute unless I find something to do there that caught my fancy. Real situation: Had a coffee date and the guy was late. I was still there that 11th minute only because a handsome man decided to chat me up in that time that Mr.X was supposed to be there. Good for Mr.Y and bad for Mr.X but all around excellent for me. See how that works? I am not going to 'wait around' for a man or anyone else for that matter. To do so would cause me to feel resentful because I spent MY time preparing for the date and for me that is 'bad'.
 
that's not fair to say. I'm one of those "good" guys. from my point of view, before I date seriously, I want to have a career in order, a nice place, and be the full package, so she doesn't have to worry about any of those things. I hope you were just joking about us guys being wimps. You are probably not the type of girl that we will end up marrying anyways =). I know many hard working family type guys like me, and the ones that are in long term relationships are with girls who don't necessarily have low self esteem, but just don't date losers because they have enough self respect. We're the INFJ forum so we're supposed to have good intuition about people. If girls date losers, don't blame it on the losers.

There are "Nice guys" and there are guys with nice qualities. Nice guys tend to be classified as guys with low self confidence, non assertive, willing to put up with crap and such. I tend to think that "Nice guys" do have potential problems in a relationship due to their nature, they seem rather unconfident. Uberrogo also will never be a WOman that is married, yes. The phrase of "The one in long term relationships" is interesting, how many of your friends are not? Is it the difference between a "Nice guy" and a "Guy with nice qualities"

JohnDoe: I agree with you. I'm an INTJ but I always felt that you can get a pretty good assumption about a person within the first meeting. You're not going to get any overtly kept secrets or anything but I think most people tend to act how they are naturally going to act during the 'first' meeting.
 
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JohnDoe: I agree with you. I'm an INTJ but I always felt that you can get a pretty good assumption about a person within the first meeting. You're not going to get any overtly kept secrets or anything but I think most people tend to act how they are naturally going to act during the 'first' meeting.

I agree with you both; I don't blame the loser and I also agree with knowing how most will act in the future within the first hour or two. I test my 1-2 hour theory regularly by seeing if someone that I think is 'tolerable' will change in 3 months.
<disclaimer>Since they are only tolerable, I choose not to test my theory more than about 4 times per year.

This only is a FAIL if; I act out of character consistently for about a month during that time. Yes, I have done that both consciously and not. Just sayin'
 
it's because assholism is sexy!

This isn't too far from the mark, actually.

Women are attracted to strength in a mate. This is basic biological instincts that humans still have from our primal days. Women instinctively desire a mate that can protect them while they are bleeding and or pregnant/nursing as all of these things leave them weakened and attracting predators.

Unfortunately, younger women often mistake many bad personality traits as 'strength', especially when our society discourages polite guys from approaching women, yet instincts leave women expecting men to approach them. This leaves the belligerent, selfish, pushy guys to be the ones to approach women.

Over time, women learn to tell the difference between strength and bad personality traits, just like polite guys learn to approach women.
 
This isn't too far from the mark, actually.

Women are attracted to strength in a mate. This is basic biological instincts that humans still have from our primal days. Women instinctively desire a mate that can protect them while they are bleeding and or pregnant/nursing as all of these things leave them weakened and attracting predators.

Unfortunately, younger women often mistake many bad personality traits as 'strength', especially when our society discourages polite guys from approaching women, yet instincts leave women expecting men to approach them. This leaves the belligerent, selfish, pushy guys to be the ones to approach women.

Over time, women learn to tell the difference between strength and bad personality traits, just like polite guys learn to approach women.

I hope you are only talking about women in the 'general public' kind of way. I don't think it applies to women INFJ's or maybe it just never applied to me.
 
I hope you are only talking about women in the 'general public' kind of way.

Absolutely. When I make a sweeping postulation like that, it can't logically be specific to everyone. Every person is an individual and susceptible to biological 'norms' to their own measure. A lot of INFJ males are less than in touch with many instincts associated with being 'a typical male'. I was just pointing out the norm.
 
Norwich hit the nail on the head

I think Norwich got it right. Some posters here must have had great fathers, and I am glad for them.

Unless we had a great relationship with our fathers, we tend to seek out those with the same problems and try to "fix it". We keep repeating this pattern, sometimes for life, even marrying the same type over and over.

The way to break the pattern is to do three things, which are very hard, but they work, and I am proof of that.
1. Run like hell when you feel chemistry for a man. This means he has those negative traits your father had that you are trying to fix.
2. Make up a list of what you really need in a partner. If that list is not too unreasonable, you can then add a couple of important wants as well, but what you really need is most important and it sometimes takes courage to admit it.
3. Then deliberately go out and look for someone who fits your list and make yourself go out with him even if you are not attracted at first. You probably won't be. I guarantee once you experience being treated the same way you treat others, you will never miss the agony that comes with "chemistry" again. For women who had great dads, going with chemistry is just fine, but for those of us who didn't, it's poison.

BTW, this advice is from the ACOA program, which I highly recommend if you had an alcoholic parent. It is how I learned to stop trying to fix my drunk and therefore emotionally unavailable father problem. I always chose emotionally unavailable men, not necessarily drinkers, but emotionally not there for me in many ways, like workaholics, for example. This works with all types of problems, not just drinking. It worked on the first try for me, and the man I found using my list and I have been married for 25 years.

klutzo
 
Warning: I'm bitter and depressed today, and this post is all over the place.

I've dated a lot, many different types of guys, and am still single - very unlucky in love. When I try to assert myself in a relationship and get what I need or call the guy out on his bad behavior and say I won't stand for it, he BOLTS. He immediately gives up - no attempt to compromise. Usually these guys seemed perfectly fine and compatible at first but they could only sustain "the boyfriend act" or their interest in me for 3-4 weeks and then they were done. Any attempts to "act in need of rescue" as other posters noted or attempts to appeal to a guy's emotions have only hurt my chances with men, not helped. Despite all my imperfections, I know I'm a good catch. I know I'm good enough for better, but as a result I am alone. Either the guys don't feel I am good enough for them, or they don't feel they are good enough for me or for any serious relationship.

Frankly I'm sick of having to explain why women act this way or that way... what about the men? Why do so many act like assholes and idiots? Because they can. There doesn't seem to be enough incentive in this day and age for anyone to act better.

In my opinion there are not enough emotionally available guys who put themselves out there for a real relationship, who actively pursue it and are willing to work on a monogamous relationship involving kindness and respect. The attractive (inside and out) women just plain outnumber the men. There are frankly not enough guys who are good catches to go around, so we end up settling and making concessions with guys who we know are probably only going to be good for a fling or some temporary fun. Sometimes we fall for them anyway and hope they will change or come around to see the benefits of a real relationship and get their act together. But it never works. No one wants to be treated poorly, but frankly sometimes I get lonely. And then I'm forced to make a choice between fling or nothing.

Sorry if this all sounds harsh. I'm really not that picky, and I only go for guys who are in my league. I don't require chiseled abs or loads of cash. In fact, the last guy I dated was a broke, illegal Mexican immigrant- I paid for almost everything when we went out! (where did that get me? no where). But no matter how "nice" you are, I won't be interested in you if you are very unfit, if you have no life, no confidence, very little in common with me, if our values in life don't match, etc. I can still usually find plenty of guys I am interested in, but getting them to return the interest and then sustain it is a losing battle lately.

To echo DoveAlexa: If you're convinced you're an awesome guy and you want a girlfriend then *put yourself out there* Come to the places where we are, talk to us. Don't obsess over 1 girl for years at a time. Don't focus on girls who might be out of your league. Meet as many people as possible and be willing to do the work to initiate a relationship and keep it going. You're not working on your relationship skills when you're playing video games all day at home.
 
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I agree with you both; I don't blame the loser and I also agree with knowing how most will act in the future within the first hour or two.
*cough* the guy I am with now I did not know completely his personality and how he was and would act and would work out as a live-in partner in the first 2 hours of meeting, nor 2 weeks.

So yeah, fuck you all once again for blaming everything on women who had some bad boyfriends, and weren't actually going for that.
Fuck you.
 
*cough* the guy I am with now I did not know completely his personality and how he was and would act and would work out as a live-in partner in the first 2 hours of meeting, nor 2 weeks.

So yeah, fuck you all once again for blaming everything on women who had some bad boyfriends, and weren't actually going for that.
Fuck you.


Are you telling the forum to fuck off?
 
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