If there is one true religion...

Ren said:
I do not personally believe that this is merciful, but I understand that it would be from the perspective of a believer.
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It may not sound like it either but it is a logical perspective, it's same as when the school says that fighting is not allowed and if you do you will be suspended, maybe on the 1st on 2nd time it may go with little or no punishment, but on the 3rd suspension shall be absolute; on the same basis when we are told that mercy is promised but we keep on fighting, then it's us who were unjust to ourselves and god in not to blame.
Worship shall be a combination of fear and hope,
Fear; when god gives his commandments and tells us not to defy them, then we will remember how great is he and how easily he can punish us, so we choose to hold our tongues and hands from causing harm to other people and be kind to one another, and hope, so with our good deeds and faith, expect him to reward us and keep evil away from us.
 
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Yusuf said:
It may not sound like it either but it is a logical perspective, it's same as when the school says that fighting is not allowed and if you do you will be suspended, maybe on the 1st on 2nd time it may go with little or no punishment, but on the 3rd suspension shall be absolute; on the same basis when we are told that mercy is promised but we keep on fighting, then it's us who were unjust to ourselves and god in not to blame.
Worship shall be a combination of fear and hope,
Fear; when god gives his commandments and tells us not to defy them, then we will remember how great is he and how easily he can punish us, so we choose to hold our tongues and hands from causing harm to other people and be kind to one another, and hope, so with our good deeds and faith, expect him to reward us and keep evil away from us.
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I don't deny that this might be a logical perspective on the condition that you accept the postulates of Islam. The postulates themselves, however, are simply stated and affirmed, and I see no sufficient reason for believing in them.

Let me ask you another question: what is, according to Islam, the after-life destiny of a morally irreproachable and devout Christian?
 
I want to ask the same question (but in reverse) to @just me:

What is, according to the Bible, the after-life destiny of a morally irreproachable and devout Muslim?
 
Ren said:
I don't deny that this might be a logical perspective on the condition that you accept the postulates of Islam. The postulates themselves, however, are simply stated and affirmed, and I see no sufficient reason for believing in them.

Let me ask you another question: what is, according to Islam, the after-life destiny of a morally irreproachable and devout Christian?
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Your question is based on the belief that all religons offer the same idea, the roads to it may differ but the destination remains the same.

I'm greatly opposing this belief and i think if a religon is to claim itself true it shall pass the simple criteria of reasoning and evidence, if a religion is truely true then other religons shall stand no chance infront of it.
Now if you have watched the 8mins clip i recommended earlier you shall know what i exactly mean by logic and evidence in regard to religon, if you haven't yet, then i recommend you to watch it.

Mostly atheists and agnostics and alot of religons consider themselves as supporter of the religon of humanity, that we shouldn't say that one religon is better than another, in doing so, we are totally ignoring an important aspect of human understanding, which is reasoning.
We are ignoring the fact that people in diffrent percentages whether they accept an idea or not; their idea can be wrong the same way we all once believed that earth was flat and it turned to be wrong.
Our opinions of the religons discussions doesn't count infront of those who dedicated their lifes in the religion comparison field, if we want to know more about the true religon, we shall be looking for something flawless, something which doesn't have mistakes that contradicts with the basic human logic as well.
We shall look for the results of the debates that happen between scholars that represent us and represent other religons as well, in doing so, we are adding atleast the element of Reasoning if not Accepting.


I do believe Christians will go to heaven if they truely follow the teachings of jesus, the jesus we muslims consider to be true and praise which requires to look at jesus from another dimension, if not, then i believe they will go to hell.
 
Muslims are not singled out in the Bible. A morally irreproachable person does not have the key to Heaven. What if that person were an atheist? What if they had been deceived by a beautiful(in appearance) morning star?

Myself? I prayed half an hour on my knees this morning for the people of the world, and I pray often. I did not pray for only Christians. This is God's love and far from my complete understanding. I feel badly for anyone that would blaspheme the Holy Spirit of God. Where is their hope, and where is their faith? Hearing such actually hurts me. It strikes against the spirit living within me. Hearing GD brings to me sorrow.

Jesus said, No man cometh unto the Father but by Me.

Hebrews 9 and 10 explains the new Testament, as well as any other verses in continuum.
 
Yusuf said:
Where ?
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Simple.

=> You don't buy my religion, so you will go to the hell for not obeying my holy book laws.

Look, my life has already people threatening it to make it as bad as possible if I don't do what they want, and part of these people, with Christian religion, were already threatening even my next life for that. Now I got Islam threatening my next life too. How awesome! Do you really think your "regret argument" is really new? No, its not. And Im truly getting sick of it.

How people see decency on religions that states that someone, doesn't matter how good is, will go to hell just because it is not following the specific religion, the specific book, is something I won't get it, not only because of logic, but as a matter of heart and justice.
 
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Vendrah said:
Simple.

=> You don't buy my religion, so you will go to the hell for not obeying my holy book laws.

Look, my life has already people threatening it to make it as bad as possible if I don't do what they want, and part of these people, with Christian religion, were already threatening even my next life for that. Now I got Islam threatening my next life too. How awesome! Do you really think your "regret argument" is really new? No, its not. And Im truly getting sick of it.

How people see decency on religions that states that someone, doesn't matter how good is, will go to hell just because it is not following the specific religion, the specific book, is something I won't get it, not only because of logic, but as a matter of heart and justice.
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That's interesting, well, what's that you have or you do in this life which can save you from this possible threat? Do you think you have enough evidence to prove that life and afterlife(if existed) are not something dependable on religon? Or is it that the threat scares you to the point you choose to close your eyes from its possibility? I'm honestly curious.

I'm sorry if you were bothered by my continuous talk about logic and rationality in religon matter, my intention wasn't to bother any non-muslim but to fulfill one of the deeds that can get me to heaven(delivery), my first reply was more than enough to fulfill delivery, so that in the day of the judgment anyone who read this thread can't deny they never heard of islam, other than that my talk about religon in all its forms was under the discussion "if there is one true religion" and so no one should be bothered by us offering our different views of what we think is right.
 
just me said:
I confess that I believe Jesus is the Christ, and the Son of the Living God. That means there is but one true religion, to me. I am responsible to accept that and to acknowledge that. I can wish, pray, try to find the right words, share videos, and everything else to share that with others. I have come to the understanding only God can have all people believe in one religion. I see clearly that may not happen by any of my doing. I do love reading the Bible. It is much larger than the book it is written in to me. I can only wonder if this world will be here much longer for us, or us much longer for it.
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I was wondering if we can talk more about why you find christianity the path for you, the kind of peace you acquire in practicing it, I'm interested in both learning and reasoning.
 
Yusuf said:
That's interesting, well, what's that you have or you do in this life which can save you from this possible threat? Do you think you have enough evidence to prove that life and afterlife(if existed) are not something dependable on religon? Or is it that the threat scares you to the point you choose to close your eyes from its possibility? I'm honestly curious.

I'm sorry if you were bothered by my continuous talk about logic and rationality in religon matter, my intention wasn't to bother any non-muslim but to fulfill one of the deeds that can get me to heaven(delivery), my first reply was more than enough to fulfill delivery, so that in the day of the judgment anyone who read this thread can't deny they never heard of islam, other than that my talk about religon in all its forms was under the discussion "if there is one true religion" and so no one should be bothered by us offering our different views of what we think is right.
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You don't have enough evidence to prove anything after-life anyway, nothing scientific, and it is up to you to prove your hypothesis and not me to prove anything about afterlife anyway. I already said, don't turn this into the unicorn in the corner of universe case where you say a bunch of things and say "disprove me", "yay you didnt disprove me so you are wrong and Im right, so you are a denial". If you want to prove something, than go to science, they already accepted there are invisible particles and even that you can distort space if you go fast enough, I'm sure they would accept if you had the whole evidence stuff which you actually don't except for you the hole book that whatever it says its a proof anyway.

I'm not scared, I'm angry. I realized how empathy lacking and falsification of empathy it is this "obey these words, follow this religion or go to hell, your next life will be damned", just the evil laugh is missing. This pattern is heartless and annoying. If God is good, then that God wont throw good people in hell because he desperately wants us to obey Islam or his "words" or whatever. If God really wants that obedience so much, he could do it here and now in a fraction of a second, instead of doing these threats in a book which is mixed with a lot of other books which we don't know which one is correct. Except that it is very likely that behind these stuff are a bunch of man who wants us to obey, to follow, and to control us, it is how Christianism and derivates are used in Brazil anyway, even if Christ meant good. So far I only know one Christian who doesn't use Christianism to that.

I expected a discussion of my philosophical point in this thread, and not a religionary conversion. Im done here, for now lets pretend @Ren is the OP, since he is more patient than I. At least I hope some people reflected about what I said before on the first post.
 
Yusuf said:
I was wondering if we can talk more about why you find christianity the path for you, the kind of peace you acquire in practicing it, I'm interested in both learning and reasoning.
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I would be interested in hearing more as well.
 
just me said:
A morally irreproachable person does not have the key to Heaven.
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Well, this is a good summary of what I cannot accept.
 
Hath not the potter power over the clay? The King, over that which is his? Does not the parent tell his children where they can and cannot go? It may be God is my Father, and I have put away childish things. If God corrects or chastens me, am I not His son? You do not have to accept this, but don't ask me to hold a chair for you. If you cannot believe in the words of Jesus, you have your reward.
 
Ren said:
Well, this is a good summary of what I cannot accept.
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I always thought philosophy was about making basis or connecting that which is known or unknown. When a book has tons of scientific evidences about future that we only came to knew in the last years, then why not accept the possibility when it talks about heaven and hell as well? The main argument is not what religon is more compassionate but what religon has claimed and proved?

When mercy extends to the point where it eliminates fear, then people will have no second thoughts while drinking beer or eating pork, when a terrorist bombs himself killing dozens of people, he will do it with the expectation that god is still forgiving and will have nothing to fear,
Enough example is what the ruling class does to the inferior class in some countries, the ways may differ but they remain things which god has prohibited and we choosed to do anyway. The imbalance between mercy and fear creates unjust society that in no way matches with the concept of "god is just" if god is just then he is as well expected to be just in this life and whatever is after it.

On the other hand, when protocols are set and allow for a chance for repentance, it creates a society which are just to themselves and as well expecting mercy in the afterlife.
 
just me said:
Hath not the potter power over the clay? The King, over that which is his? Does not the parent tell his children where they can and cannot go? It may be God is my Father, and I have put away childish things. If God corrects or chastens me, am I not His son? You do not have to accept this, but don't ask me to hold a chair for you. If you cannot believe in the words of Jesus, you have your reward.
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Is that's it ?
 
It is simple to see when words are a waste of time, so why expound?
 
Yusuf said:
When a book has tons of scientific evidences about future that we only came to knew in the last years, then why not accept the possibility when it talks about heaven and hell as well?
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Because that is a well-known fallacy, called the fallacy of composition. Even assuming that book x is right about A, B and C, that still doesn't imply in any way that book x must be right about D. This is simple, elementary logic. If you cannot see this, I'm afraid it is no wonder you could jump to conclusions so quickly about the absolute truth of Islam from a 'logical' point of view.

Yusuf said:
I do believe Christians will go to heaven if they truely follow the teachings of jesus, the jesus we muslims consider to be true and praise which requires to look at jesus from another dimension, if not, then i believe they will go to hell.
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Do you think it is possible for a Christian to look at Jesus from this other dimension, follow his teachings, and still be a Christian?
 
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