"I'm Christian, unless you're gay."

[AKM]

I'm not trying to start anything and I don't want a debate because honestly I just like to discuss and find out things about people and their beliefs, finding such things interesting.

So... I apologize if this makes anyone uncomfortable. Just let me know and I'll back out.

My basic thing is, okay, I'm a lesbian. The whole 'hate the sin, love the sinner' thing is a nice idea, sure, but how do you reconcile the fact that you are hating a major part of who I am, my identity, et cetera?

Further, are you (hate the sin peeps) the kind that believe homosexuality a choice?

I've just never been into guys and the thought of being with them is enough to make me physically ill. I was never abused or molested or what have you, so there's really not much more to me being a lesbian than, you know, just not digging men whatsoever.

Back in my devout Christian days, I found myself wishing and praying and dreaming and hoping that I could be straight, but every attempt to be so just ended up hurting me more and more on the inside, resulting in my first suicide attempt. That, after the suicide attempt, was the first time someone ever told me it was OK to be gay. The thing I needed to hear to live on wasn't 'Jesus loves you' or whatever, it was that I wasn't a messed up person for being how I was as long as I could remember.

I just... couldn't be straight. I tried. I tried so hard. I tried so hard it almost ended me and everything I was, after sixteen years.

I guess it's like, you know how you feel with your Christianity, and I know how I've felt since my earliest memories... is there even a middleground for us to meet at? How can you love me while hating one of my biggest and proudest parts? One that I didn't choose and can't control.

I'm trying to figure out how to put this without getting flamed. As a disclaimer, yes I am Christian, yes I do not believe that homosexuality is a way of life that pleases God. Does that mean he doesn't love you? No, and it doesn't mean I dislike you either. Now my response has more to do with the fact that you're saying that if I "hate" homosexuality as a sin, I have to hate you because it's such a large part of who you are. You are much more than what you identify with sexually, culturally, religiously, or any other -ly. That you have made this the greatest portion of your identity is something you've done, and therefore you feel that the hatred must be in proportion to that. I can't speak for anyone other than myself, but I know that I don't look at someone and say "oh, she's SOOOO gay that I can't love her, even if they are so outspoken about it that I know almost nothing else about them. I would feel sadness that they have nothing else to identify with...that they have made this one portion of who they are into everything they are. If I had a chance to get to know them I would learn and love the good in them, whether it was that they try to make everyone happy, they are trustworthy, they are reliable, etc. To make a comparison, I have sinned in my life. If I were then to glom onto any sin as an identity, and focus my life on that, people wouldn't see much else (a liar, a thief, a cheat, etc.) even though there's much more to me than that. I really hope this is making sense, and I'm glad to clarify.
:behindsofa:ray2:

edit: I also want to add that I have friends who are homosexual, and I do love them. One is my absolute best friend from the first day of kindergarten...that was a while ago, and we're still very close. A couple are even girls who were sure they were in love with me at one point or another. I don't say "my gay friend," I mention my best friend from kindergarten.

 

[unpersons]

I'm not a religious person, so what I say is probably worthless to you. But from where I stand it seems your life isn't better but so much worse because of this doctrine you subscribe to. I think I'm not answering a question but rather asking one. Give up on the doctrine.

I don't subscribe to any doctrine. I used to be a part of fundamentalist Christianity but have moved far beyond and into the realm of atheism, even having been a militant atheist before, for a long period of time. (I'm no weaker as an atheist in the post-militant days, in fact, stronger now than ever, but I don't like making people mad or being so needlessly combative.)

I'm trying to figure out how to put this without getting flamed. As a disclaimer, yes I am Christian, yes I do not believe that homosexuality is a way of life that pleases God. Does that mean he doesn't love you? No, and it doesn't mean I dislike you either. Now my response has more to do with the fact that you're saying that if I "hate" homosexuality as a sin, I have to hate you because it's such a large part of who you are. You are much more than what you identify with sexually, culturally, religiously, or any other -ly. That you have made this the greatest portion of your identity is something you've done, and therefore you feel that the hatred must be in proportion to that. I can't speak for anyone other than myself, but I know that I don't look at someone and say "oh, she's SOOOO gay that I can't love her, even if they are so outspoken about it that I know almost nothing else about them. I would feel sadness that they have nothing else to identify with...that they have made this one portion of who they are into everything they are. If I had a chance to get to know them I would learn and love the good in them, whether it was that they try to make everyone happy, they are trustworthy, they are reliable, etc. To make a comparison, I have sinned in my life. If I were then to glom onto any sin as an identity, and focus my life on that, people wouldn't see much else (a liar, a thief, a cheat, etc.) even though there's much more to me than that. I really hope this is making sense, and I'm glad to clarify.
:behindsofa:ray2:

edit: I also want to add that I have friends who are homosexual, and I do love them. One is my absolute best friend from the first day of kindergarten...that was a while ago, and we're still very close. A couple are even girls who were sure they were in love with me at one point or another. I don't say "my gay friend," I mention my best friend from kindergarten.

It's just bizarre to think that something I've had no choice in, a part of my biology, whenever I faced off against it I couldn't take it, and god hates this? I didn't ask for it and for most of my life I didn't want it. Eventually, after a loooot of struggles, I had to accept it or I was going to end up dying. If god is against it, why didn't I feel different naturally? Why would I be, essentially, "made" one way and told I was going to burn forever if I didn't end up another?

Seems like there are no satisfying answers for these questions...

 

[knight in battle]

I was talking to a liberal Christian today over a cup of tea. We were talking about all the bizarre denominational differences that were part of our individual experiences. Yes, I'm addicted to religion.

He cited one congregation in which, despite [or because of] high liturgy, "half the people are gay," mostly dressed informally with "arms around their lovers". (cf. The Church Effeminate). I find it appalling that he had to point this out as specific to homosexual lovers only.

One wonders, Do friends put their arms around each other? Do heterosexual lovers? Do homosexual lovers put their "arms around each other" because it is so difficult to find a homosexual lover and therefore it is a sign of appreciating the rare? or is it a form of mutual support as a reaction to the inability to cope with Christian community in which there is:

1. An inability to minister to homosexuals by relating to them (since it is considered a neurosis in conservative circles - and one which can be improved upon). In this case, this a deficiency in ministering effectively to "males" and "females", not merely to gender confusion as such.
2. An attitude issue of degree among certain Christians - i.e., "struggling" with homosexuality is "okay", as long as one does not ever expose one's sins or "lapse" into the mindset of it; in contrast to "normal" sin-strugglers, for whom "mild gossip" or "mild heterosexual lust" is normal and should be overlooked without social consequence, but God forbid if there is even a hint of homosexuality.
3. An absence of grace (cf. TrueFaced), so that indeed the individual is seen apart from his compliance to the level of sin that is tolerated in a given community.