"I'm Christian, unless you're gay."

[This]

In all fairness homosexuality is hardly mentioned in the bible, sure it's there but not nearly as much as other things. Christians have this habit of picking and choosing which "sins" they think are the worst regardless of how often they're mentioned. Judging others is also considered a "sin" but we see how seriously people take that.

 

[Barnabas]

It's definitely a reaction to fear.

Hating anyone is never righteous… but I do think that people have that in them and they need targets that can make them feel better about themselves. That's sort of the whole point, isn't it?

It's not that I think fear can't produce hate, it's that fear as the base motivation of hate is to simple, to easy. And let's round out that I'm not talking about people I'm talking about actions, concepts and notions.

all hatred is derived from fear and ignorance.

I also have to disagree with this, people don't hate wrong doing because of ignorance, it's just another oversimplification of a complex emotion.

Let's go with a few more examples,

A child hates eating his vegetable

A man is holding a funeral procession for his late father, a drunk relative walks in making a scene. He throws the relative out, hating what he did or hating drunks.

A guy walks into a bathroom and the last person left it a mess and didn't flush, he hates when that happens.

I hate that people still treat Gay men and women as disgusting secretes, as something to be swept under the rug.

I hate that my father has Alzheimer's.

I hate that I have to drive all the way across state to see my girlfriend.

I hate that my brothers criminal record prevents him from being successful.

I hate that my sister can't afford the the proper surgery for her neck or medication for mental problems.

I hate a lot of things, but it doesn't mean i'm ignorant or afraid of them. To say that hate is born solely of fear cheapens then emotion and the people whom feel it.

 

[JGirl]

It's not that I think fear can't produce hate, it's that fear as the base motivation of hate is to simple, to easy. And let's round out that I'm not talking about people I'm talking about actions, concepts and notions.



I also have to disagree with this, people don't hate wrong doing because of ignorance, it's just another oversimplification of a complex emotion.

Let's go with a few more examples,

A child hates eating his vegetable

A man is holding a funeral procession for his late father, a drunk relative walks in making a scene. He throws the relative out, hating what he did or hating drunks.

A guy walks into a bathroom and the last person left it a mess and didn't flush, he hates when that happens.

I hate that people still treat Gay men and women as disgusting secretes, as something to be swept under the rug.

I hate that my father has Alzheimer's.

I hate that I have to drive all the way across state to see my girlfriend.

I hate that my brothers criminal record prevents him from being successful.

I hate that my sister can't afford the the proper surgery for her neck or medication for mental problems.

I hate a lot of things, but it doesn't mean i'm ignorant or afraid of them. To say that hate is born solely of fear cheapens then emotion and the people whom feel it.

and i would have to disagree with your understanding and useage of the word 'hate'

in every one of your examples you are using hate in place of dislike or discomfort or preference. this, in my opinion, is oversimplification. i also disagree that understanding it as being derived from fear or ignorance cheapens it, (what the hell does that even mean?)

people who hate a lot of things should really ask themselves what it is that causes such a powerful emotion to be used to describe what they see as unfair, or inappropriate, or unfortunate, or criminal etc.

 

[Barnabas]

and i would have to disagree with your understanding and useage of the word 'hate'

in every one of your examples you are using hate in place of dislike or discomfort or preference. this, in my opinion, is oversimplification. i also disagree that understanding it as being derived from fear or ignorance cheapens it, (what the hell does that even mean?)

people who hate a lot of things should really ask themselves what it is that causes such a powerful emotion to be used to describe what they see as unfair, or inappropriate, or unfortunate, or criminal etc.

Alright, let's retrofit the hate with the words you think I mean

I dislike that people still treat Gay men and women as disgusting secretes, as something to be swept under the rug.

I find it discomforting that my father has Alzheimer's.

I'd prefer that I'd not have to drive all the way across state to see my girlfriend.

I dislike that my brothers criminal record prevents him from being successful.

I'd prefer that my sister be able afford the the proper surgery for her neck and the medication for mental problems.

The big problem with using these words is that they don't match how I feel, and when we'er talking about emotions how I feel is pretty important.

You know what discomfort is, it's having your foot fall asleep in class and not being able to move around to wake it up, it's getting a flu shot as a kid and my arm stinging for the next hour or so, it's the awkward silence when you realize that you don't quite fit with the political views of the group your with. That's discomfort, that is not what I feel when I think about my father slowly losing his mind to disease that has 100% mortality rate, it's not a matter of it will kill him, it's whether or not something else will kill him first. There are a range of complex emotions feel that drive me to hate what's happening and saying that I'm afraid or ignorant for feeling hatred is ridiculous.

So let's look at why dislike doesn't fit with why Hate the way Gay men and women are treated. I dislike that I have to pay $4 dollars of Gas, I dislike Pepsi most products, I dislike nuts in my food and I dislike having certain foods touch certain other food on my plate. I dislike something because I take no enjoyment from it, I dislike something because it causes frustration or discomfort. I take no enjoyment from the way the gay community is treated, It frustrates me that the group of people I affiliate myself with cause it the problems in the first place. but you know what, those aren't why I hate and I do mean hate how the gay community is treated in small towns and families.

I'm the youngest in my family of 4 children. The next person the rung is my youngest brother Steven whom some of you are probably or are now aware is gay. Fun fact, in the twenty one years on this earth I've seen him 3 times. Once when I was 4 or 5 at Christmas, once again when my mom tracked him down and worked with his SO to arrange a meeting and most recently five years ago when my dad had his 80th birthday.
My brother has withdrawn from pretty much all family contact because of the way my oldest brother and my father treated him when he came out of the closet. Because of what they did I lost a brother, I lost a connection to the only person who's ever been successful in my family, I lost a chance to get to know and understand one of the few people I truly respect. Once again to tell me that I dislike or I find it uncomfortable that gay people are treated the way they are is down right insulting, I hate it.

I'll end on one more this one being the most recent. I have a girlfriend on the other side of Florida, and the day before yesterday she had one of the worst days she's had since she begun college, and you know what seeing as I was over hundred miles away the only thing I could do was tell it's all going to get better. She was hurting and I had now way to help her. I hate that, I hate that people I care about are in pain, I hate that I can't do a thing about it.


I know why I hate things, I know what combination of circumstances, feelings and emotion come to produce something as complex and destructive as hate. To say that I don't hate those things, to tell someone what they feel is based on fear and ignorance when they'll always know better then the people telling them as such is terribly insulting. You turn something complex, rich and dangerous as hate into something simple, something cheap as fear and ignorance then your insulting anyone who has ever hated anything whether that hate is justified or not.

 

[Saru Inc]

I can't read the link - blocked at work. But just based on the responses I guess I understand the article.


I really just have to say something, which honestly isn't really directed to anyone in this thread, because it just came to me while I was reading it.

I really don't like it when people say "why can Christians hate gays? Its justifying bigotry" etc. Now, to be fair, lets also include Muslims with that crowd, and probably some other religions. What people need to do, is to look at something from the other side of the shooting range. Its funny because if this forum was as Ni centralized as y'all would have us believe, this should be abundant. But then again we can't really speak of shoulds when discussing opinions. Regardless, I speak this as a gay, and a Christian. I understand why Christians hate gays. I used to hate them too, before I realized I myself was gay. (Keep in mind this was pre-5th grade). Most Christians don't 'hate' gays, they simply believe that its detrimental to the human race to have them wed, as well as to be encouraged. Now, whether or not its a choice is a big split in the community. But what you guys (you meaning non Christians, not 'you' this forum... Again this isn't really directed to anyone here) need to do is look through a Christian's eyes as a Christian. Not stand behind them and look over their shoulders as an atheist/muslim/whatever non christian. This is when things will make sense. Because that is what bothers me, people who see religious people as crazy. They're logical beings like all of us. Of course the nut jobs grab attention but that's few and far between.

Most Christians fear/dislike/hate/whatever the term that applies gays not because they are gay, but for an even simpler reason. In the Bible God specifically sanctions Man and Woman together to prosper. Anything not man/woman, is not God. So when people say 'omg they're not harming you' obviously not. But to allow them to wed/etc/ idc/ this would allow evil/non God to prosper instead. This is not what I believe, as well as many other Christians. Just a snapshot as to why they hate gays. I think the comment "omg let people be people christians are crazy" is a prime example of someone who is talking, but not really thinking. And I see this in too many arenas, politics, religion, idk. I don't really care.


I also don't know if this counts as on topic or not. But here's what I can say which is on topic.


It is not the Christians 'Job' to judge. It is for them to love their neighbor, as themself. (And more so) It is for God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit to judge, because they are the only fair judges. This is my qualm with most Christians. I have been a victim of many of their persecutions, and its not a Christian thing to do. Which is why I guess I wrote this post, because don't call Christians 'bigots.' Call them by their name, Bob, Susan, Dequan, Michael, Xial-li idc. Because even though we are Christian, we are also human and all sin.

This is why I dislike that argument. I hope this made sense, I'm typing this while doing a million other things. Sorry for typos etc.

 

[acd]

"They simply believe it's detrimental to the human race to have them wed."
Simply.

 

[skippy64]

Just love the sinner. Just as a man is a lier, you still love him. Does it discomfort you when the man confesses to lying? Yes, but you don't go, "My God! You're a lier?!" The same goes to gays. Why should we overreact? It's the overreaction that heightens the problem, because you're making them feel like aliens. A sin is a sin is a sin. The discomfort of wanting to confess to any sin, prevents us from growing. If people are afraid to confess to any sin, it's because they are threatened by your ego. Get off your high horse, and look at God's people from ground level. Honoring yourself above God and acting prideful is just as much a sin as gay practice. Get this- a riot of prideful Christians get up in arms over a gay pride march. Pride against pride. Lets stop overreacting and take a look at the people who are hurting- the ones that ACTUALLY need the attention.

 

[Rferraris]

Saru inc


"said "I really don't like it when people say "why can Christians hate gays?"


Because Christian have notoriously hated everyone. They have persecuted, executed, and perpetrated hate toward every species since the beginning of time.
That's why. The alignment with conservatives is exactly why they are hated too.

Remember this. There is supposed to be a separation between church and state and Jesus preached love with indifference and unconditionally.

But from the outside it appears Christians love only who they want, seemingly other liked minded Christians. Ignoring the other 756 religions in the world. And the only separation between church and state is the willingness to change the most scared document of all, the constitution, so that same sex couples can't marry.

So you fucken tell me why people say what they say about Christians.

 

[Apone]

It's not that I think fear can't produce hate, it's that fear as the base motivation of hate is to simple, to easy. And let's round out that I'm not talking about people I'm talking about actions, concepts and notions.

Do you hate it when two people of the same gender are in love?

I guess it's not always about fear, it's also about ignorance, prejudice and self-righteousness.

 

[knight in battle]

@Ryo

It’s about love.
It’s about kindness.
It’s about friendship.

Friendship and kindness are found in strange situations. The ones who tolerate you aren't necessarily going to be kind to you. Sometimes it's ones who disapprove of you who ironically appreciate you and are the very ones who befriend you.

He lives in a community where being gay is still very “frowned upon.”

In my experience, it is certain outspoken members of a community who reinforce an atmosphere of negativity. There are plenty of others who, despite sincerely frowning upon it, are personally kind to those who identify as gay. And there are those who need time and experience to discover how they would like to show kindness to such people. And then there are those who don't identify as gay, but society forces the label on them.

 

[Flavus Aquila]

So hatred of Rape is out of fear of Rape

Whether there is fear of rape or not, rape is wrong.

The original article seemed like it was trying to create an emotional fog that obscures all other possible ways of dealing with life: especially with the notion of there being things that are wrong.

An atheistic Buddhist I know uses the following principal to determine what is wrong: anything which, if practiced by everyone, everywhere, for most of the time, would be destructive (of life, society, happiness, etc.). He extended this principal to say that if something is wrong for everyone to practice, it is also wrong for anyone to practice.

While, I don't agree with the principal entirely, it is certainly true that things such as rape, stealing, lying, homosexuality, etc. cannot be practiced by everyone, everywhere, most of the time without serious negative results.

Anyhow, the thread doesn't seem to be about how one comes to right and wrong... however, to deny people a sense of right and wrong in all aspects of their life (private, social, public, etc.) would seem to be a kind of violation of their sense of good living. By extension it also would seem wrong to deny people the ability to reinforce and cultivate what they see as right, and to ward off what they see as wrong from their lives.


I didn't like the article, because it contains the implicit ultimatum: to be loving, you must give up your sense of right and wrong.

 

[JGirl]

Alright, let's retrofit the hate with the words you think I mean



I know why I hate things, I know what combination of circumstances, feelings and emotion come to produce something as complex and destructive as hate. To say that I don't hate those things, to tell someone what they feel is based on fear and ignorance when they'll always know better then the people telling them as such is terribly insulting. You turn something complex, rich and dangerous as hate into something simple, something cheap as fear and ignorance then your insulting anyone who has ever hated anything whether that hate is justified or not.

there is not much point in responding to most of your post, as you have only reinstated all the things you hate.
you have plenty of hate in your life. you hate so readily.
your prerogative, of course, but don't be telling other people they are insulting you because they understand it in a different way. don't be so quick to take something personally that has nothing to do with you.
no one can make you feel any way you don't want to feel without your permission. this is a bona fide fact. for those who are ruled by their feelings/emotions this is a difficult hurdle to overcome.
as to your understanding of what hate is. it does not make any sense to me, any more than i would imagine my understanding of it makes sense to you (this has become obvious to me).
so, let me just leave you with this thought.
all that hate you have no problem projecting to so many things in your every day life.
how's that working for ya? in what way does that emotion serve you? this is rhetorical btw

 

[Barnabas]

there is not much point in responding to most of your post, as you have only reinstated all the things you hate.
you have plenty of hate in your life. you hate so readily.
your prerogative, of course, but don't be telling other people they are insulting you because they understand it in a different way. don't be so quick to take something personally that has nothing to do with you.
no one can make you feel any way you don't want to feel without your permission. this is a bona fide fact. for those who are ruled by their feelings/emotions this is a difficult hurdle to overcome.
as to your understanding of what hate is. it does not make any sense to me, any more than i would imagine my understanding of it makes sense to you (this has become obvious to me).
so, let me just leave you with this thought.
all that hate you have no problem projecting to so many things in your every day life.
how's that working for ya? in what way does that emotion serve you? this is rhetorical btw

I fear you missed the entire point of my post

 

[AKM]

As a Christian I try not to judge others, but as a human it is sometimes difficult. I see the sin, and it is so easy to call the person by the name of the sin that they then have no other identity to me. When I see myself doing it, I correct my actions. Am I sinless? Absolutely not. The Bible says in 1 John 3:15 (KJV) Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him. As [MENTION=4827]skippy64[/MENTION] said - hate the sin, not the sinner. There are people I grew up with that have been led to a life of crime (everything from embezzeling to drug dealing to murder.) I still love them, though I cannot love their actions. Self-proclaimed Christians that preach hate are not Christians at all. We should share the Gospel, and most of all the Love of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. I pray for the groups that feel the need to protest gay marriages and the like, that they can learn to love others, and that whether being gay is a sin or not, it is not our place to judge the person.

 

[skippy64]

I like what you have to say, so not only am I going to reply, I'm going to hit the like button as well.

Thank you for pointing this out to me. When I was a boy, I remember I hated my brother (having actual feelings of hate). That could explain why I never healed from the bullying and the hate he had toward me. I worry for this nation that shows lots of hate feelings. Nothing is getting resolved, and we are only being driven away from the truth. Keep on preachin' it [MENTION=5145]AKM[/MENTION]

 

[knight in battle]

Most Christians don't 'hate' gays

I do believe this to be true on personal levels, despite media hype to the contrary.

Personal experiences can influence a person's hatred toward a group of people (e.g. receiving unwanted attention, experiencing abuse, etc). But hatred stems mostly from fear, not merely from believing that something is a sin or not. For example, I believe that alcoholism is a sin, but I don't personally hate those who do it (unless maybe if they're doing it to me of course).

 

[JGirl]

I fear you missed the entire point of my post

no, i didn't.
i just don't agree with it.

 

[knight in battle]

I lost a brother, I lost a connection to the only person who's ever been successful in my family, I lost a chance to get to know and understand one of the few people I truly respect.

I wonder, do most straight brothers feel this way about their gay or homosexual brothers? If so, do most males look past sexuality as a mostly incidental trait?

 

[unpersons]

I'm not trying to start anything and I don't want a debate because honestly I just like to discuss and find out things about people and their beliefs, finding such things interesting.

So... I apologize if this makes anyone uncomfortable. Just let me know and I'll back out.

My basic thing is, okay, I'm a lesbian. The whole 'hate the sin, love the sinner' thing is a nice idea, sure, but how do you reconcile the fact that you are hating a major part of who I am, my identity, et cetera?

Further, are you (hate the sin peeps) the kind that believe homosexuality a choice?

I've just never been into guys and the thought of being with them is enough to make me physically ill. I was never abused or molested or what have you, so there's really not much more to me being a lesbian than, you know, just not digging men whatsoever.

Back in my devout Christian days, I found myself wishing and praying and dreaming and hoping that I could be straight, but every attempt to be so just ended up hurting me more and more on the inside, resulting in my first suicide attempt. That, after the suicide attempt, was the first time someone ever told me it was OK to be gay. The thing I needed to hear to live on wasn't 'Jesus loves you' or whatever, it was that I wasn't a messed up person for being how I was as long as I could remember.

I just... couldn't be straight. I tried. I tried so hard. I tried so hard it almost ended me and everything I was, after sixteen years.

I guess it's like, you know how you feel with your Christianity, and I know how I've felt since my earliest memories... is there even a middleground for us to meet at? How can you love me while hating one of my biggest and proudest parts? One that I didn't choose and can't control.

 

[Rferraris]

I'm not trying to start anything and I don't want a debate because honestly I just like to discuss and find out things about people and their beliefs, finding such things interesting.

So... I apologize if this makes anyone uncomfortable. Just let me know and I'll back out.

My basic thing is, okay, I'm a lesbian. The whole 'hate the sin, love the sinner' thing is a nice idea, sure, but how do you reconcile the fact that you are hating a major part of who I am, my identity, et cetera?

Further, are you (hate the sin peeps) the kind that believe homosexuality a choice?

I've just never been into guys and the thought of being with them is enough to make me physically ill. I was never abused or molested or what have you, so there's really not much more to me being a lesbian than, you know, just not digging men whatsoever.

Back in my devout Christian days, I found myself wishing and praying and dreaming and hoping that I could be straight, but every attempt to be so just ended up hurting me more and more on the inside, resulting in my first suicide attempt. That, after the suicide attempt, was the first time someone ever told me it was OK to be gay. The thing I needed to hear to live on wasn't 'Jesus loves you' or whatever, it was that I wasn't a messed up person for being how I was as long as I could remember.

I just... couldn't be straight. I tried. I tried so hard. I tried so hard it almost ended me and everything I was, after sixteen years.

I guess it's like, you know how you feel with your Christianity, and I know how I've felt since my earliest memories... is there even a middleground for us to meet at? How can you love me while hating one of my biggest and proudest parts? One that I didn't choose and can't control.

I'm not a religious person, so what I say is probably worthless to you. But from where I stand it seems your life isn't better but so much worse because of this doctrine you subscribe to. I think I'm not answering a question but rather asking one. Give up on the doctrine.