I'm starting to think I might be an ENFJ

So, in your opinion, how do the functions overlap and adapt, and how do the theories you've seen fail to address this?

All of the functions overlap.

For example, Fi and Fe overlap in 'the middle'. As Fi becomes more and more outwardly focused, it becomes Fe. It's like a sliding scale, and many times people favor a point that is closer to the middle than not. Fe and Te also overlap, and in the same way. Ti and Te overlap, as do Ti and Fi. This means that the overall cognitive function we know as Judging is actually one amorphous mass of capacity that has some polarized points in it (Fi, Fe, Ti, and Te). Functions even overlap across the middle. Fe overlaps Ti, and Te overlaps Fi in the 'middle' of the Judging capacities. This is why these functions naturally pair because the mind needs to have a balanced ability to reason, not skirt around the edges of T, F, I, oe E.

The same effect is true with Perception functions. Ni overlaps Ne, Si overlaps Se, Ni overlaps Si, and Se overlaps Ne - and they pair across the middle just as with J functions. And furthermore, the same is true of the J and P functions. They overlap as well, just not so obviously, because when they overlap, it is due to tandem use.

People have points in these very fluid cognitive maps that best represent their most comfortable and reflexive processes, but most importantly, everyone slides up and down the scales and across them in reaction to problems that require different cognitive approaches.

The points from which people generally start their problem sovling process, and the order in which they generally move through them, is what dictates personality type. But, that doesn't imply capacity with these functions, nor require a person to always use the same heirarchy. Personality type is just a description of tendency.
 
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So, what you're saying is that those theories fail to address the overlapping and adaptability of functions because they rely on 8 functions instead of the interconnections between them?

How do functions work in tandem, and does that imply that we can only use 2 functions at the same time?


... But, there is a lot of good stuff in them, and if you take them at face value and add the understanding that all of the function parts form a dynamic nebulous whole we call cognition then they're quite valid.
What are the good stuff in them? Are you talking about the hierarchy? Is there anything else? You're also saying that the functions are aspects of cognition and are used to describe it, right? So, does that mean type provides a way to understand how others think?


Speaking about the hierarchy, what do you mean when you say type doesn't require a person to use the same hierarchy? Are you saying that the problem solving process (that you say starts with the dominant function) can somehow be started in a way that goes against the hierarchy? Is it stress that causes this? If so, how does a person determine their type? By what usually happens (especially when they are relaxed)?
 
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Today, I had one of those Ni moments...

I've been insisting for a very long time that Jungian archetypes are simply a measure of our most common order of cognitive preference, and that the mind is very capable of using a different order at any point.

Just now, it occurred to me that our preferences change in proportion to the function order we're currently using. That's why people get different results on the same tests. I know this may seem overly simple, but this is going somewhere.

Here are my lowest and highest scores with each function from my various test results from the tests I have recorded...

(Ni) ********************************** (34.1)
(Ni) ******************************************** (44.5)

(Fe) ******************************* (31.6)
(Fe) ******************************************* (43.3)

(Fi) ***************************** (29.8)
(Fi) ************************************* (37.3)

(Ti) *************************** (27.2)
(Ti) ************************************ (36)

(Ne) ************************* (25.3)
(Ne) *********************************** (35.5)

(Se) *********************** (23.9)
(Se) ********************************** (34.8)

(Te) ***************** (17.5)
(Te) ************************ (24.6)

(Si) *************** (15.8)
(Si) *********************** (23.1)


What this shows are bands of preference, not pinpoints. These are the ranges at which my functions operate, not a constant capacity that is set in stone. They fluctuate. And when they fluctuate, they reorder themselves in order of preference. Sometimes my Fe takes over. Sometimes my Fi, Ti, Ne, or even my Se takes over.

I think this is a real breakthrough in understanding cognitive function hierarchy and the personalities they imply.
 
I'm starting to think I might be not just an ENFJ, but perhaps also an INFP, and maybe even an ENFP. I'm clearly an NF type. But as far as my i/e and j/p axis go, it's really a matter of my mood and situation.

However, Beebe's theories on the subject of shadow functions have me thinking about the possibility of being an ENFJ/INFP or an ENFP/INFJ. My overall cognitive function scores would imply the latter, but my test results generally imply the former.

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View attachment 1644

In either case, if I'm switching back and forth between a base function set and a shadow function set, this would explain the ambiguity between the i/e and j/p axis. The longer I've been switching back and forth, the more ambiguous I would think they'd be, and I'm pretty sure I've been switching back and forth my whole life, or at least since early childhood.

Indigo mentioned that this gives me the advantage of being adaptable, and if there is one thing I am, that's it. I'm not just adaptable in a passive way. I can take on very active roles as well. This also supports the notion that we're all just unique collections of cognitive function capacities, and that personality type is much more vague than previously considered. (Or that I really am an NFP type, and those of us who have strong Ne are unable to be pinned down because we're in constant flux?)

My Ni, Ne, Fe, and Fi all test very strong and I don't think my self opinion is inaccurate on them. I have a good grasp of what each of these represent, and they're all solid within my perspective, based on any given situation. I can very much see myself in ENFJ and INFP mode. I can also see myself having been in ENFP and INFJ modes.

If I had to choose at this moment (and this is shocking even me), I would have to guess that I might actually be an INFP, but that due to stressors and requirements in my life, I spend more time in my ENFJ mode than anything else, and because of these, I've also developed the very solid ENFP and INFJ modes as hybrids of my base and shadow modes.

And to me, that's the interesting part. This means that we really do learn to have modes. I know that certain people bring out my ENFP mode - my silly jackass side, while others bring out my ENFJ mode - my take care of everyone and be responsible side. Still others bring out my INFJ mode - my zen mode, while I seem to be the most comfortable with people who let me be in INFP mode - my just being 'me' slacker mode. Just as frequently, situations bring out these modes. Sales jobs require the ENFP or ENFJ modes, depending on the target market. Office jobs seem to bring out my ENFJ or INFJ modes. However, my artistic endeavors really seem to need my INFP mode to produce anything beautiful. Problem there is that INFP mode doesn't like to finish much. However, this is just more proof to my original theory - the human mind is far to dynamic and adaptive to be pinned down to one set of factors... no matter how much we may like it to be so.

Edit: Third possibility (and least favorable at the moment) - I am an INFP, and all of my ambiguity and even my 'modes' are simply manifestations of Ne and Fi, as these two functions have the potential to be extremely adaptive. It could be as simple as this, and I have to be honest with myself here and admit that this could be a possibility.
 
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So, what you're saying is that those theories fail to address the overlapping and adaptability of functions because they rely on 8 functions instead of the interconnections between them?

Yes, that's what I'm asserting.

How do functions work in tandem, and does that imply that we can only use 2 functions at the same time?

Working in tandem simply means that they're both going at the same time. I have been assuming that only two functions can work at the same time, but that would be rather dumb on my part. We seem to use all of them at the same time, just some more than others, depending on the mental task.

What are the good stuff in them? Are you talking about the hierarchy? Is there anything else? You're also saying that the functions are aspects of cognition and are used to describe it, right? So, does that mean type provides a way to understand how others think?

I guess it kind of has to. We have to use cognition to understand cognition. Ironic, really. Unless we're telepathic, we can only assume how others think, yet it seems easier to understand how others think than how we ourselves think. Even more ironic.

Speaking about the hierarchy, what do you mean when you say type doesn't require a person to use the same hierarchy? Are you saying that the problem solving process (that you say starts with the dominant function) can somehow be started in a way that goes against the hierarchy? Is it stress that causes this? If so, how does a person determine their type? By what usually happens (especially when they are relaxed)?

Yes. I am saying that people can learn to have completely different hierarchies. Accounting isn't a very Fi oriented task, so a mind can learn to use Si, Ti, Te, and Se almost exclusively when accounting, even if that mind is dominantly Fi, Ne, Fe, and Ni.

The base personality seems to be the one we are the most comfortable in... our 'real selves'. I have no idea how to determine what that is for anyone. It's kind of a 'you just know' sort of thing, which is why self assessment tests are considered somewhat reliable in determining it. At some point, through self exploration, you just have to decide for yourself what functions you most often use and in what order.
 
Thanks for replying, Von Hase.


I've been insisting for a very long time that Jungian archetypes are simply a measure of our most common order of cognitive preference, and that the mind is very capable of using a different order at any point.

How are the archetypes "simply a measure of our most common order of cognitive preference"?
Let's take INFJs as an example, are you saying that INFJs will have the function order of "Ni Fe Ti Se Ne Fi Te Si" most of the time or that, among the INFJs, that order is the most common (while another order, even though still valid for or found among INFJs, isn't as common?)?
 
Thanks for replying, Von Hase.

How are the archetypes "simply a measure of our most common order of cognitive preference"?
Let's take INFJs as an example, are you saying that INFJs will have the function order of "Ni Fe Ti Se Ne Fi Te Si" most of the time or that, among the INFJs, that order is the most common (while another order, even though still valid for or found among INFJs, isn't as common?)?

All the above.

What I'm saying is that a person's inherent (aka most common or most comfortable) cognitive function order is unique to the person. That person's unique function order will be more like one type than another, and therefore it is grouped as such. If someone has a function preference that is closest to "Ni Fe Ti Se Ne Fi Te Si" then they are classified as an INFJ, even though among the INFJs there is a lot of variance. Jungian Archetypes are a "Best Fit" classification.

Also, the same person can develop different orders. So, an INFJ is likely to have an ENFP, ENFJ, INFP, or even INTP, ISTP mode - likely even several. What makes a person fit the INFJ type more than the others is that "Ni Fe Ti Se Ne Fi Te Si" is their most natural, comfortable, or basic state.

A good analogy might be that of shapeshifters, because it is a physical illustration of how adaptive the mind is. The base preference order would be like the human form - who you inherently are. Each of the additional types would be animal forms that someone could shapeshift into, like Wolf, Bird, Fish, Snake, etc. Most people would have at least one animal form they could take advantage of. Other people have several, and would use them based on the situation. If you could turn into a Wolf, you would use that form to run fast and track things, maybe even bite someone. You would use Fish to swim and breathe water. But, you wouldn't use Wolf to swim or Fish to run fast. Meanwhile, you wouldn't use Snake to do either, but you wouldn't use Wolf or Fish to slip through tight little spaces, and you wouldn't use any of them to fly except Bird. Each of the cognitive function preferences serve a utilitarian purpose that the base human form isn't as well equipped to handle. You'd do most things in your human form, but you would use an animal form when you needed an advantage that your human form didn't have like running fast, breathing water, slipping through cracks, or flying.

To take this analogy a step further, let's say that all INFJs are human forms. However, there are a lot of different kinds of humans. No two are identical, and each has their own aptitudes and failings, but they're all still human. No two INFJs have the exact same cognitive capacities, but they have the same basic traits. Now, let's call the running form ENFP mode. Here's where the differences become more apparent. Some people would shift into a Wolf, while others a Deer, or a Cheetah, or even a Kangaroo. It would still serve the same purpose, but each person has a unique take on the same function. Some can run for very long distances, some have amazing burst speed, while others have unique ways of getting around, yet they all end up falling into the same grouping of function - which is running. That's how Jungian archetypes work. They're very encompassing, and not very specific, classifying by function, but ignoring the individual differences. We could then group INFP as the swimming mode. Some INFJs would turn into Fish, others Otters, some into Dolphins, and others into Alligators. Again, the function is served, but the individual remains unique. Most importantly, whether in running mode or swimming mode, the INFJ is still at their base a human, and only takes advantage of these forms when needed.

I hope that explains my wacky theory a little better, because I'm about to take one last leap of analogy logic that may make everything either more clear or more confusing...

Now, imagine that as a person keeps using them, these forms stop looking like actual animals, but rather sort of beastial creatures that simply have traits to allow them to perform their functions. For example, in running mode, a person only shifts their arms and legs to resemble a quadraped so they can run like one, but otherwise look human. In swimming mode, they shift their arms and legs into flipper like things and grow gills, but otherwise look human. In flying mode, they simply shift their arms into wings. That's essentially what your mind is doing when it shifts modes. It's taking advantage of the other modes without actually turning you into the form you're imitating. Now here's where it gets interesting. Eventually, your mind learns how to encorporate any or all of the forms you've mastered at any given time. You could grow wings, flippers, and running legs all at once, having them ready at a moment's notice, and putting more emphasis on whichever set you're using without losing all of the utility of the others. This creature still retains a lot of your human form's traits, but can run fast, leap into the air, and dive into the water effortlessly. And that is what it is like when the mind has mastered the art of cognitive function modes. Your brain becomes a mental all terrain vehicle.

Here's how the development pattern works with this analogy... Let's say your mind needs the equivalent of running legs (to adapt to something like a job or school that isn't well suited for your inherent function set). At first you have to stop everything and adapt a new form. Your running legs aren't going to be very well formed, and are likely not even going to be as fast as your human legs. But, over time as you use them, they get better and better, more and more able to perform as needed. But, as you use them, you need less and less time to shift into them, until it is absolutely reflexive. Next you do the same thing with a swimming form, and then a flight form. And then you learn how to shift from one to the other without going back to human form, until you're so fluid with all of them that they're essentially a part of you. And that is how people become unable to decide which single type they actually are, because at that point, they don't really resemble their inherent function any longer.
 
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I'm starting to have a really difficult time deciding which type I actually am. I stopped working at a very stressful job, and I'm noticing that my J function has been getting progressively weaker. Could I actually be a P type who has been under stress operating in shadow mode for the past several years, or is my J side just taking a break?

Yet another possibility is that I am a true ambivert - which means my natural state is somewhere in the middle of all of these types I keep scoring as?

I can very much see that I am an ENFJ when the people I care about need someone to lead them.

I can very much see that I am an INFP when I am lazing about the house and tinkering on the internet.

I can very much see that I am an ENFP when I ride the wave of big groups of friends.

I can just as easily see that I am an INFJ when I need to be serious, but not in the lead.

Could it be possible that I have a balanced N, F, S, and T, which allows me to seesaw a little introverted or extroverted with any given function? For instance, my inherent state is the midpoint of Ne and Ni (a generic N if you will), but situations cause me to react by leaning toward Ne or Ni, and the rest of my functions follow suit. Meanwhile, my F function is also inherently a midpoint between Fi and Fe, and if a situation demands, I lean one way or another... leaving me with the ability to choose between Ni, Ne, Fi, and Fe for my dominant function. That seems so wrong according to theory, but the only logical answer that I can come up with.

Does this mean I have an extremely rare fluid and adaptive mind? Perhaps I've been projecting this trait onto others for as long as I've been aware of the concept, and it isn't nearly as common as I thought? Maybe those few of us who can't figure out what we are are more like this than not? What if this is the end result of NF types to develop into - a hybrid of all the above - due to the pattern recognition nature of N and the fluid philosophical reasoning of F? Maybe this is where Keirsey stumbled upon the grouping of NFs, NTs, SJs, and SFs? The nature of these sets build to a very similar gestalt in each, and those of us who are ambiguous NFs are all sharing a similar experience?
 
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I can very much see that I am an ENFJ when the people I care about need someone to lead them.

I can very much see that I am an INFP when I am lazing about the house and tinkering on the internet.

I can very much see that I am an ENFP when I ride the wave of big groups of friends.

I can just as easily see that I am an INFJ when I need to be serious, but not in the lead.
How much of the function hierarchy of those 4 types are you using when you say that you see yourself as one of them? For example, when you see yourself as INFP, is it because you see yourself using "Fi Ne Si Te Fe Ni Se Ti", or "Fi Ne Si Te", "Fi Ne", or just "Fi"?

That seems so wrong according to theory, but the only logical answer that I can come up with.
Maybe the problem with the theory is what it is actually trying to model? Why should the MBTI be used to model cognition? With all the confusion and ambiguity that you are experiencing while using the MBTI in this way, couldn't we say that the MBTI is rather unsuited for this purpose?

Maybe this is where Keirsey stumbled upon the grouping of NFs, NTs, SJs, and SFs? The nature of these sets build to a very similar gestalt in each, and those of us who are ambiguous NFs are all sharing a similar experience?
What are you trying to say here? Are you saying that Keirsey's temperaments show how people are similar, that each of the 4 temperaments grows to be more similar to each other?
 
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How much of the function hierarchy of those 4 types are you using when you say that you see yourself as one of them? For example, when you see yourself as INFP, is it because you see yourself using "Fi Ne Si Te Fe Ni Se Ti", or "Fi Ne Si Te", "Fi Ne", or just "Fi"?

I'm saying that I can sense behavior patterns that seem to match the descriptions of the types mentioned. I've had a chance to consider this, and I believe the answer is simpler than I was making it out to be. I am dominantly an Ni and Fe person. Sometimes I switch to Fe and Ni. Other times my Ni and Fe work in tandem to create a psuedo Ne and Fi, or even Fi and Ne because the nature of cognitive functions are more inherently just N and F, with a slant toward i or e. The more developed they are, the more they can slide on the i/e axis.

Maybe the problem with the theory is what it is actually trying to model? Why should the MBTI be used to model cognition? With all the confusion and ambiguity that you are experiencing while using the MBTI in this way, couldn't we say that the MBTI is rather unsuited for this purpose?

Agreed. The MBTI was designed to discern only the dominant J and P functions. The theory that Jungian archetypes imply a function order for the remaining 6 cognitive functions was not added until after the MBTI gained popularity. Jung himself never postulated this because his theory simply stated that of the 8 functions, everyone has a pair that they tend to lead their thought processes with, which implies personality. To this end, the MBTI is actually a fairly accurate instrument.

What are you trying to say here? Are you saying that Keirsey's temperaments show how people are similar, that each of the 4 temperaments grows to be more similar to each other?

I'm saying that I have begun to see the connection between how various types tend to develop and Keirsey's temperments, and that this is likely the cause of his theories.
 
Agreed. The MBTI was designed to discern only the dominant J and P functions. The theory that Jungian archetypes imply a function order for the remaining 6 cognitive functions was not added until after the MBTI gained popularity. Jung himself never postulated this because his theory simply stated that of the 8 functions, everyone has a pair that they tend to lead their thought processes with, which implies personality. To this end, the MBTI is actually a fairly accurate instrument.
I thought the function order for the remaining 6 were the result of a logical extension of the principles (or should we say assumption?) that were implicit in the function order of the first 2? Are you saying that extension makes the MBTI less accurate? Maybe it's just that the MBTI can't contain the implications of that extension? Shall we extend the MBTI then?

Why don't we accept the results of the functions test as our "type"? Is it necessary to give meaning to the order other than strength of expression?

I'm saying that I have begun to see the connection between how various types tend to develop and Keirsey's temperments, and that this is likely the cause of his theories.
Could you please tell me more about the connection you've discovered and how it is likely the cause of Keirsey's theories? By the way, did you mean to type "SPs" instead of "SFs" in your post?
 
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I'm saying that I have begun to see the connection between how various types tend to develop and Keirsey's temperments, and that this is likely the cause of his theories.

There is a strong connection, however this isn't full proof. I am the perfect example for this. I bridge three temperments, NF, NT, and SJ (as because my IxxJ varient nature). People can very easily have two dominat function for themselves, but they don't have to form a pair with each other. It is possible for nearly any two functions to work with each other, through each other, or in tandem within each other, it is even possible for a single letter to just dominate over the rest.

Obviously one of the first things someone should do is figure a type of best fit. Down the line though, people should try to figure out a "varient form" for themselves. If they can determine this, they will have a set of patterns they can work with, and this actually explains their inner personality far more then just a single mbti code or set function order could explain.
 
I thought the function order for the remaining 6 were the result of a logical extension of the principles (or should we say assumption?) that were implicit in the function order of the first 2? Are you saying that extension makes the MBTI less accurate? Maybe it's just that the MBTI can't contain the implications of that extension? Shall we extend the MBTI then?

Why don't we accept the results of the functions test as our "type"? Is it necessary to give meaning to the order other than strength of expression?

There is no need. The MBTI is designed to measure the dominant J and dominant P function. It is what it is. The cognitive function test is designed to point out your actual use of the functions. These are completely different tests. It is very possible to have dominant functions that are not as well used as other functions, so these two tests can disagree. You have to take into consideration that the MBTI is designed to assess personality preferences, while the cognitive function test is designed to measure capacity. Capacity and preference are not synonymous by nature, but often intersect.

I am saying however that the extension theory appears to be a misnomer. Personality is strongly influenced by cognitive function preferences with respect to the dominant J and P functions, which are supported by all the other functions to varying and adaptive degrees.

If me make the analogy that the mind is an athlete, and each cognitive function is an athletic function, then we can deduce that an athlete's primary preferences will usually determine their sport of focus. For example, a long distance runner would be 'cardio' and 'legs' dominant. However, just because this athlete is a long distance runner, there is no requirement for that runner to have a preference order of 'abs', 'arms', 'throwing', 'stretching', and 'acrobatics'. It might even be common, but that's only a coincidental cascade effect manifested in capacity because the overall athlete is first and foremost an athlete, not a collection of preferences or capacities. A long distance runner can have a world record bench press 'arms' capacity, but still prefer 'cardio' and 'legs'.

The mind is exactly the same. Perception and Reasoning are fully adaptable functions with components that can be amplified or disregarded, and the primary modes (aka preferred function pairs) are nothing more than the most common way that someone uses Perception and Reason - and certainly not the only way, nor an exclusive way. Mental capacities and preferences are not by nature tied to one another, simply frequently occuring together.

Could you please tell me more about the connection you've discovered and how it is likely the cause of Keirsey's theories? By the way, did you mean to type "SPs" instead of "SFs" in your post?

I intended SPs and SJs. I was being careless.

My only evidence of this is that a lot of the NFs of all types here, on other boards, and in real life have shown themselves to develop into an overall NF personality as they mature. NTs of all types have a tendency to do this as well. The more mature and cognitively developed an N type person is, the more trouble they seem to have pinning down their i/e and j/p axis. I don't know what is causing this, but my theory is what I stated above - which is that N pattern recognition causes people to swing between Ni and Ne with their P functions, and therefore Fe and Fi (or Ti and Te respectively.)
My assumption is that S types do the same thing with Se and Si, but for some reason use their inherent T and F function pair (Ti and Fe or Te and Fi). Lenore Thomson suggested that SJs are inherently left brain dominant and that SPs are inherently right brain dominant. It would support Keirsey's theory on Temperment (NF, NT, SJ, and SP) development.
 
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So, you're saying that the addition of the 6 remaining functions wasn't really an extension and that you could just as well derive them by taking into consideration the relativity of J/P and I/E (for N types)?
 
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There is a strong connection, however this isn't full proof. I am the perfect example for this. I bridge three temperments, NF, NT, and SJ (as because my IxxJ varient nature). People can very easily have two dominat function for themselves, but they don't have to form a pair with each other. It is possible for nearly any two functions to work with each other, through each other, or in tandem within each other, it is even possible for a single letter to just dominate over the rest.

Obviously one of the first things someone should do is figure a type of best fit. Down the line though, people should try to figure out a "varient form" for themselves. If they can determine this, they will have a set of patterns they can work with, and this actually explains their inner personality far more then just a single mbti code or set function order could explain.
How should the "variant form" be indicated, with the 8 letters (or a subset of them), 4 temperaments, cognitive processes, all of them, or something else?
 
What I mean is, a set of letters. For example I am of a IJ varient (I bridge INFJ, INTJ, ISFJ, and ISTJ). Another varient form could be NTP (where they bridge INTP and ENTP). So on and so forth.
 
I read somewhere recently that if you're an NF type and you're wondering if you're extroverted - you are.

NFs are by nature very introspective, even the extroverts (ENFJ and ENFP).

I guess that clenches it. (This week)

I'm an ENFJ with an INFP side, which allows me to also step into INFJ and even ENFP modes.

...or I'm an INFJ with an ENFP side, which allows me to also step into INFP and ENFJ modes.

Hooray for adaptability!
 
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