INFJ or INTJ?

[Headstorm]

Ok, you all give me a lot to think about. I find it difficult to judge myself when it comes to this Feeling component. I am generally good with people, I am open, kind, interested and I have a good relationship with all/most my colleagues. Both with the introverts from IT as well as the extraverted salespeople. I act differently around different people and different depending on the situation. I can feel/see it when other people have a problem, are not in tune with the world, sad or whatever. I sense tension. The question ‘do I care for them’ is another. I do in the moment I speak to them, I sympathize with them but do I really care? I am not sure. It is not that I spontaneously start to help them. It is more that I am good in lending people an ear and reading between the lines.

About conflict: that’s hard for me to judge either, I rarely am in a conflict situation. I do a lot to avoid that. I like harmony. Not just because I think it is better (a firm point of view might work out way better) but because it feels right. In a conflict I always can relate to both (or all) sides and I am always looking for something to close the gap. Makes me a terrible negotiator by the way. In the case of the family problems I had: I felt abandoned and ill-treated. In an emotional time of my life. I responded with anger and disbelief. Which led to frustration and finally the choice to end the hurt by stopping all contact. I am healed now, by the way .

Same for discussions. I have my views and opinions on the world, politics, society, capitalism, religion, but I will hardly ever express them. Mostly because most of my opinions are ‘soft’ (I can see so many sides of a situation) and I think everything is relative. Something can be right today, but wrong tomorrow.

Ok, I won’t make this post too long. A big like for those reading and replying .

 

[Wyote]

The question ‘do I care for them’ is another. I do in the moment I speak to them, I sympathize with them but do I really care? I am not sure. It is not that I spontaneously start to help them. It is more that I am good in lending people an ear and reading between the lines.

If your answer isn't "I would impale myself on a most painful pyre to help another human in need, you are probably INTJ

About conflict: that’s hard for me to judge either, I rarely am in a conflict situation. I do a lot to avoid that. I like harmony. Not just because I think it is better (a firm point of view might work out way better) but because it feels right.

If your answer isn't "I'd sooner impale myself on a most painful pyre of death..."

Lol you get the idea

Same for discussions. I have my views and opinions on the world, politics, society, capitalism, religion, but I will hardly ever express them. Mostly because most of my opinions are ‘soft’ (I can see so many sides of a situation) and I think everything is relative. Something can be right today, but wrong tomorrow.

Definite Ni dom trait

 

[Ren]

I act differently around different people and different depending on the situation. I can feel/see it when other people have a problem, are not in tune with the world, sad or whatever. I sense tension. The question ‘do I care for them’ is another. I do in the moment I speak to them, I sympathize with them but do I really care? I am not sure. It is not that I spontaneously start to help them. It is more that I am good in lending people an ear and reading between the lines.

To me, this suggests INFJ over INTJ. More specifically, it suggests Fe.

The acting differently depending on the situation, but also the spontaneously sensing things outwardly and lending an ear to people without necessarily "caring in a deep way". All those are manifestations of extraverted feeling. I feel the same that you do a lot of the time. I'm good a perceiving the vibe and atmosphere between people, and knowing what to say, but that doesn't mean that I will go home and think about that for the rest of the evening. I usually don't.

Fe is a complicated function to explain, as it doesn't necessarily mean shallowness of feeling, but what you express in the above quote sounds very unlike Fi to me, which is the tertiary function of INTJs. I incline towards thinking you are INFJ.

 

[Zola]

I think you are an INFJ. There's a big difference between Te/Fi and Fe/Ti people.

An INTJ maintains his opinion of himself in the face of criticism. He formulates his self-image internally. He finds it harder to be told, "You did a bad job," than, "You are a jerk." He doesn't take an argument personally. He is more apt to speak his thoughts openly and keep his feelings to himself. He sees himself as authentic and principled, always the same, regardless of the who he is with. He would rather be right than be loved.

An INFJ is the opposite. He cares what people think of him as a person. He might apologize for doing a bad job, but his real concern is that you don't think he is a bad person. He is more apt to show his feelings and keep his thoughts to himself. He sees himself as understanding, acknowledging others' viewpoints even if he disagrees. He would rather be loved than be right.

Te is power. Fi is principle. Both of these are hard, serious, and forceful.
Ti is understanding. Fe is influence. Both of these are soft and light yet strong.

Our society values the "hard" person more than the "soft" person, especially for men. This is a shame. Think of how many problems are caused by black/white thinking. How much more peaceful and considerate people would be of each other -- and of the world in general -- if they saw in shades of gray, instead.

 

[Ginny]

I think you are an INFJ. There's a big difference between Te/Fi and Fe/Ti people.

An INTJ maintains his opinion of himself in the face of criticism. He formulates his self-image internally. He finds it harder to be told, "You did a bad job," than, "You are a jerk." He doesn't take an argument personally. He is more apt to speak his thoughts openly and keep his feelings to himself. He sees himself as authentic and principled, always the same, regardless of the who he is with. He would rather be right than be loved.

An INFJ is the opposite. He cares what people think of him as a person. He might apologize for doing a bad job, but his real concern is that you don't think he is a bad person. He is more apt to show his feelings and keep his thoughts to himself. He sees himself as understanding, acknowledging others' viewpoints even if he disagrees. He would rather be loved than be right.

Te is power. Fi is principle. Both of these are hard, serious, and forceful.
Ti is understanding. Fe is influence. Both of these are soft and light yet strong.

Our society values the "hard" person more than the "soft" person, especially for men. This is a shame. Think of how many problems are caused by black/white thinking. How much more peaceful and considerate people would be of each other -- and of the world in general -- if they saw in shades of gray, instead.

I think you're a tiny bit off on the definition of the functions.

I would say that:
Te sees the dynamics of facts as a fluid basis of reasons to choose from; it stands for authority because of precision and makes the user aware of the reasons of the tribe. Fi hold both emotions and subjective morals that serve as an internal compass.
Ti is responsible for subjective reasoning and therefore individual principles within a person. Fe is the recognition of feeling in a person that allows the acceptance of varying viewpoints or perspectives which makes the user aware of the values of the tribe.

However, this is still too superficial to create a nuanced image of how the functions work together in their slots, with different preferences, even if you don't consider phenomena like loop, grip or shadow.
I agree that there are fundamental differences due to the functions, but it is not as black-and-white as you make it out to be.

 

[Zola]

Te sees the dynamics of facts as a fluid basis of reasons to choose from; it stands for authority because of precision and makes the user aware of the reasons of the tribe...Fe is the recognition of feeling in a person that allows the acceptance of varying viewpoints or perspectives which makes the user aware of the values of the tribe.

I have struggled with external/internal = objective/subjective. I don't mean to start a battle over terms, but this concept is confusing to me. Let me explain why:

I resist describing Te as "reasons of the tribe" and Fe as "values of the tribe" because, in practice, reasons and values co-exist, facts and feelings co-exist. Consider the issue of abortion. Regardless of whether a fact is supported by data, law, or religion, we quickly find ourselves arguing in regard to emotion. Plus, it makes no difference whether the "tribal" aspect deals with Te or the Fe at that point.

Try applying the argument to abortion. The Te/Fi user would say, "Abortion is legal, therefore it should be allowed to continue, but I find it wrong to inflict pain and death on a fetus because it is a living person." How is that any different from what a Fe/Ti user would say?

Fi hold both emotions and subjective morals that serve as an internal compass. Ti is responsible for subjective reasoning and therefore individual principles within a person.

For a similar reason, I resist using the term "subjective" for Ti. I can accept that Ti is an "internal" process, but how can facts be subjective? True-false is binary. Facts are true. The only subjectivity involved is whether we choose to recognize facts, and how we rank order them in terms of importance. To a lesser extent, good-bad is also binary, but Fi is more subjective because some values contradict others. If facts contradicted each other, then one of them would no longer be a fact.

However, this is still too superficial to create a nuanced image of how the functions work together in their slots, with different preferences, even if you don't consider phenomena like loop, grip or shadow.

True. I use loops, grips, and shadows to double-check whether a person is a certain MBTI type or not.

I agree that there are fundamental differences due to the functions, but it is not as black-and-white as you make it out to be.

Of course. I do realize this. I was trying to simplify some arguments to help the OP decide which type he is.

 

[Deleted member 16771]

However, this is still too superficial to create a nuanced image of how the functions work together in their slots, with different preferences, even if you don't consider phenomena like loop, grip or shadow.
I agree that there are fundamental differences due to the functions, but it is not as black-and-white as you make it out to be.

https://kieranhealy.org/publications/fuck-nuance/

 

[Zola]

The title is catchy, I'll say that much.

 

[Headstorm]

If your answer isn't "I would impale myself on a most painful pyre to help another human in need, you are probably INTJ

LOL, I try to stay out of the department of pain...truth is when someone asks me for help I go a long way to do so.

I have read a lot that will help me. Thank you all for replying.

 

[Ginny]

I have struggled with external/internal = objective/subjective. I don't mean to start a battle over terms, but this concept is confusing to me. Let me explain why:

I resist describing Te as "reasons of the tribe" and Fe as "values of the tribe" because, in practice, reasons and values co-exist, facts and feelings co-exist. Consider the issue of abortion. Regardless of whether a fact is supported by data, law, or religion, we quickly find ourselves arguing in regard to emotion. Plus, it makes no difference whether the "tribal" aspect deals with Te or the Fe at that point.

Try applying the argument to abortion. The Te/Fi user would say, "Abortion is legal, therefore it should be allowed to continue, but I find it wrong to inflict pain and death on a fetus because it is a living person." How is that any different from what a Fe/Ti user would say?



For a similar reason, I resist using the term "subjective" for Ti. I can accept that Ti is an "internal" process, but how can facts be subjective? True-false is binary. Facts are true. The only subjectivity involved is whether we choose to recognize facts, and how we rank order them in terms of importance. To a lesser extent, good-bad is also binary, but Fi is more subjective because some values contradict others. If facts contradicted each other, then one of them would no longer be a fact.



True. I use loops, grips, and shadows to double-check whether a person is a certain MBTI type or not.



Of course. I do realize this. I was trying to simplify some arguments to help the OP decide which type he is.

I guess you can see what I mean now how we will endlessly disagree if we put things too short. In addition to that we probably disagree on approach, over which we can't say whether one of them is ultimately helpful or not.

https://kieranhealy.org/publications/fuck-nuance/

Noting nuance is part of who I am. It's hard to put aside. But well, I am not a sociologist either.

 

[Zola]

The discussion is what matters. It's okay to agree about terminology at the outset. A discipline such a psychology or sociology is dependent upon abstract terminology. Maybe in the future, with brain mapping, we will be able to pinpoint which areas of the brain relate to each function. Imagine, instead of describing the thought processes, we could use at-home EEG headsets and run our data through software while taking a standardized personality test. My guess is that the results would generate a whole, new typology. With less nuance.

 

[John K]

Just a quick thought - I'll go through the thread more closely later.

INFJs spend a lot of time internally, spinning webs between Ni and Ti - Ni creating the visions and perspectives and Ti analysing them. It's nice and cosy and doesn't need any nasty extraverting. It's good when it's based on competent Ti and can get badly off key otherwise, but it is a natural state to coast in. I do it a lot, and it takes me a lot less effort than using Fe - though that is far more effective, when I do use it as well, at crystallising out my Ni coherently.

INTJs I presume will spend a similar amount of time comfortably spinning their own webs between Ni and Fi - Ni creating the visions and perspectives, Fi determining their value, their importance to you and how obligated you are to them. Paradoxically that means that there is likely to be more of an emotional overtone in the way this happens for an INTJ than there is with an INFJ.

The strong INTJs I've known seem to bring their ideas forward logically, but with a sort of moral overtone embedded in them because of this, in a way that INFJs don't do at all usually. My wife does it for example. My experience of some INTJs is that far from being indifferent to conflict, they are happy to generate it vigorously if they see it as a way of achieving their goals. I had an INTJ boss who was right on with this. It took me a huge amount of emotional energy to deal with him in that mood, but didn't bother him in the least. The easiest way to trigger it was to tread on his values.

 

[Zola]

John K., that is a good assessment. Here's how I see it working in real life:

The Ni-Fi loop justifies its view of reality according to right-wrong. It disregards the situations other people are dealing with. It uses it's own emotions to support its decision. In this loop, people are apt to become angry and take actions that upset others. They hate admitting that they got the facts wrong.

The Ni-Ti loop justifies its view of reality according to true-false. It disregards how other people are feeling. It considers only the facts that support it's decision. In this loop, people are apt to stop caring and take actions that cut themselves off from others. They hate admitting that they misinterpreted people's feelings.

 

[John K]

John K., that is a good assessment. Here's how I see it working in real life:

The Ni-Fi loop justifies its view of reality according to right-wrong. It disregards the situations other people are dealing with. It uses it's own emotions to support its decision. In this loop, people are apt to become angry and take actions that upset others. They hate admitting that they got the facts wrong.

The Ni-Ti loop justifies its view of reality according to true-false. It disregards how other people are feeling. It considers only the facts that support it's decision. In this loop, people are apt to stop caring and take actions that cut themselves off from others. They hate admitting that they misinterpreted people's feelings.

That sounds like a great summary Zola.

 

[John K]

@Headstorm a few more thoughts now I've gone through the thread. I worked as a middle manager in the Information Systems Dept of a large Pharma for several decades - I ran a variety of teams supporting our research scientists. I came across mbti in a amagement course over 20 years ago and emerged from the test on a dead tie INTP/J. The trouble is INFJs are chameleons and take on the flavour of the company they keep if its "magnetic force" is strong enough - and INTP/J was definitely well aligned with our corporate culture among the people I had most contact with. This is almost certainly confusing you in the same way and it isn't just on the tests - you probably identify with T closely when you read the text book descriptions too. There are several INFJ people in the forum who have very strong tertiary Ti and this can carry us a very long way in thinking it is secondary or primary. I wasn't comfortable originally about identifying with Fe, because it has been so sterotyped that I think it is presented in ways Jung would have disagreed with strongly. In particular, this stereotyping makes men hesitant in identifying with it. One of the reasons I joined the Forum earlier this year was to conciously explore using Fe in a "safe" environment, and I haven't looked back - it just felt so natural once I got used to it, and takes far less of my energy that the other ways I was dealing with the outside world. The interaction between Ni/Fe/Ti (and Se, glorious Se too) just seems to fit me like a glove - wish I'd known it 40 years ago *sigh*.
Anyway - an option for you is to try out consciously using Fe and Te within the forum and see how they fit. It's a pretty tolerant place as long as you don't explore the deepest darkest reaches

 

[Zola]

What's interesting is that I understand both loops. At times, I manifest as an unhealthy INTJ in an Ni-Fi loop. Turning on Te makes me take action to solve the problem, but if often worsens the conflict because I'm really an INFJ, and the solution to the problem is turning on Fe instead.

Example: I'm stuck in a conflict. It feels good to DO something, so I use Te (argue my viewpoint, do research, come up with strategies, recruit allies) but all my efforts inflame the conflict further. Then I try Fe instead. I simply state that I understand their feelings. This turns out to be the missing link that other people were looking for. They want me to listen to them. If I can accept their feelings, we're good. Conflict over. It's not about proving facts at all.

As an INTJ I try too hard to make everything serious, factual, meaningful, authentic. It drives me crazy, and it stresses everyone out. As an INFJ I allow the shades of gray, keep it light-hearted, and maintain my position quietly and calmly. It's so much easier for me, and people like me better this way. It's a match.

I really think it would be cool to be a badass. It's just not me, and it's not what people admire in me. As far as work life is concerned, INTPs have Ti/Fe, and they are currently valued the most for technical skills.

 

[Headstorm]

John, Zola, thanks for your contribution! It makes so much more sense now. Today at work I had a discussion with my boss. I had a feeling/idea that we should test some code and I could not make a sound, logical explanation why. So I had to go through every logical possibility with him, one by one, to eventually come to the point where he agreed to do the testing. While going through those steps I realized he is probably INTJ (Ti). So that lead me to the thought that I might be an INFJ with too much INTJ influences..
Or an INFJ who neglected his Fe for too long... I might be wrong on this but it is very interesting, and so much fun to find out how this works.
Any suggestions by the way on how to consciously try out Fe?

 

[Ginny]

Any suggestions by the way on how to consciously try out Fe?

Anything that teaches emotional allignment works. The more real, the better. I don't know if it has been proven, but it is said that the emotional bond to even fictional characters resembles the ones we build among each other quite strongly. So, first of all is of course social activity, but reading fiction also works (also, it doesn't drain you as fast), as well as any form of moving picture (small or silver screen) that provides emotional input.

We also have a thread dealing with methods to "train" the individual functions.
https://www.infjs.com/threads/how-do-you-train-your-cognitive-functions.35774/

 

[Zola]

John K, Ginny, thanks for hanging in there with me to help Headstorm figure out his function stack.

Headstorm, the buzzword for Te is effective, and the buzzword for Ti it is accurate. Te users will do something by standardized methodology because it is quick and trustworthy. Ti users will take time to pick something apart on their own because they really want to know how it works.

How to use Fe: Watch facial expressions and body language. Listen to tone of voice. From 60% to 90% of communication is non-verbal. If you can be respectful about it, mirror people's gestures, posture, and expressions to show you are in synch with them. (Be subtle. It must feel natural, be quick, and go unnoticed.) Pause before answering to allow the speaker the option of continuing, to feel that he has your full attention. Never make someone suspect that you are merely waiting for your turn to speak, thinking about what you are going to say, not listening to them. In terms of words and facial expressions, avoid exaggerated responses because they come across as phony. If someone is being emotional, enough drama is already going on, and you need to stay calm. If you do these simple things, you will find it remarkably easy to quickly join in on jokes and add relevant comments that will be well-received. The mood will turn positive.

 

[John K]

John K, Ginny, thanks for hanging in there with me to help Headstorm figure out his function stack.

Headstorm, the buzzword for Te is effective, and the buzzword for Ti it is accurate. Te users will do something by standardized methodology because it is quick and trustworthy. Ti users will take time to pick something apart on their own because they really want to know how it works.

How to use Fe: Watch facial expressions and body language. Listen to tone of voice. From 60% to 90% of communication is non-verbal. If you can be respectful about it, mirror people's gestures, posture, and expressions to show you are in synch with them. (Be subtle. It must feel natural, be quick, and go unnoticed.) Pause before answering to allow the speaker the option of continuing, to feel that he has your full attention. Never make someone suspect that you are merely waiting for your turn to speak, thinking about what you are going to say, not listening to them. In terms of words and facial expressions, avoid exaggerated responses because they come across as phony. If someone is being emotional, enough drama is already going on, and you need to stay calm. If you do these simple things, you will find it remarkably easy to quickly join in on jokes and add relevant comments that will be well-received. The mood will turn positive.

Some additional thoughts in situations where you aren’t face to face. I think you can find plenty of examples of Fe in the forum if you read through the threads. Think about how what is said reflects and affects how people feel, decide and react - including yourself. Join in and focus on these aspects rather than just the logic of a discussion. Give positive feedback, encouragement and support to people - use Ni and Fe together to understand the others in reasonable depth to hit the mark with these. It doesn’t have to be in your face - often the most effective Fe is in the undertones, the ‘body language’ of a comment. Think about what makes you feel good and what uncomfortable in your own posts. I don’t think it’s rocket science and if you find it starts to come easy you have your answer - if it feels awkward and needs ongoing serious effort then that gives an answer too.

In my view Fe is not just ‘Harmony’ - it has its neutral and dark sides too. Personally I think tailgating is a good example of using Fe to make something happen and it isn’t very nice. Next time someone tries it on you, consider how you feel. Personally I’m constantly aware of drivers’ emotions behind me. I don’t recommend trying it out but most drivers have probably done it at one time or other.