INFJs and borderline personality disorder

CindyLou said:
Listen to your gut. Please do. I was in a long term relationship with a diagnosed borderline, fell smack into one right after being with a narc. I guess it felt kinda normal. You're going to run into more lies. Most of the things they tell you are lies. You're going to have to come to terms with tihngs like...truth. How important that is to you, and trust. The things he accuses you of doing, are probably things he is doing.

He told you he thinks he is a sociopath? How angry does he get with you and what happens? Assume he's dangerous.

Get. Out. Now.

PM me.

(I say that not to as an insult to borderlines. I loved mine. I did. The sociopath comment has me worried)
Click to expand...

I sometimes feel like I'm a sociopath too. Just thought I'd throw that out there. ;)
 
People with BPD or other severe mental issues that cause them to be very emotionally and characteristically immature should be screened and provided therapy before being allowed to have children.
 
I think BPD is more individual than what has been described here.

Not a nice thing to observe. The undiagnosed probably suffer the worse - not that I put everything into diagnosis. It does seem to help some though.

I'm a little impatient to blame parenting techniques for much nowadays. Society is in itself too crazy now for that. As always these things are an interaction of many factors but BPD can be relieved. I suppose different types have different strengths as well as weaknesses.
 
I can say I have had my share of disorders which I could of never imagined myself going through. There is a link of BPD and an INFJ if their circumstances are not perceived to be ideal long-term. An INFJ is sensitive to their environment, and a disorder is a byproduct of negative associations.
 
MBTI Addict said:
BPD in recovery here. I want people know that BPD is not permanent. It takes a lot of work and a lot of patience with oneself, but the hypersensitivity, splitting, avoidance, and anger can all be mediated. I started with DBT and medication 6 years ago and I'm happy to report that I'm finally feeling much healthier (and able to identify it). I've held a steady job for four years, have just finished my second masters degree and am about to embark on a PhD program in the fall. My therapist is also a BPD awareness advocate and a miracle worker. She is essentially like a BPD "sponsor" like for someone in AA. She is there when I'm feeling dysregulated (about once a week) and gives me some alternative options to what I imagine as being a trigger over the phone for immediate "relief." I have written a story about a girl who has skin that falls off when people touch her and she is essentially without a skin to cover her body. This is how I used to feel ALL THE TIME. Like I was a skinless person trying to navigate around this treacherous world.

Personally, I feel that there is a close association between being and INFJ and having BPD, because of a propensity to be hypersensitive. Perhaps someone will one day come up with some empirical evidence on this relationship.
Click to expand...
Don't forget the rage association too. I have most of the bpd qualities except cutting and being self destructive. Well, maybe I smoke because I don't care. Hmm. This is all very interesting. Nice to find such an old post for answers.
 
I live with my mother who has been diagnosed with BPD. The thing I have noticed the most over the years are the frequent intense emotions of rage and sadness and inability to contain those sorts of emotions.

One thing I see in myself is that sure, I lose my temper or get worked up or worn out sometimes, but basically, and more so all the time as I get older, I feel a calm center. I have sometimes noticed that I can use my calm center to influence others to also be calm. I notice this calm center also in the other INFJs on the site. This is all very different to the intense emotional world of BPD.

Of course INFJs can suffer from BPD. But I don't think that these things very naturally go together.
 
Me and my best friend are both INFJ on the MBTI test. Both of us have different types of BPD. She has the more manipulating agressive and reckless one. I have the more selfharming paranoid but more rational one. We both have typical INFJ traits. But it is very obvious that when we compare ourselves to another INFJ friend we share, that we are very different than her. She is very happy and everything in her life seems to be smooth all the time. My best friend and me we are constantly depressed and have suicidal months/weeks every now and then. In behaviour I would say that the biggest difference between that healthy INFJ friend, and me and my best friend is that she is very gentle and sweet, but we are very bitter and angry at the world. We still love people and want to care deeply for society as a typical INFJ, but we also feel very angry and betrayed by it which makes us disconnect from people. Also important is that there are more types of BPD, which affects your original personality differently. Even though I have BPD, I don't have it very badly and you can still really recognize me as INFJ. But my best friend, her narcisistic parents were more abusive than mine so she developped a worse kind of BPD. It is because I know her very well, that I see the INFJ in her. But there is a very rhough wall around her that makes her look and act as a ENTJ. But that is just her wall, her inner person is still very empathic and caring.
 
Otto Kernberg and Marsha Linehan are leading psychologists working with Cluster B disorders. Both are featured on the BorderlinerNotes YouTube channel. I highly recommend looking into it.

Eitiology is not completely solidified for most disorders, but strong evidence suggests that BPD has components of both genetic susceptibility as well as emotional environment experienced by the subject roughly between the ages of 6 months to 6 years of age. This is when identity begins to coalesce. I have seen it described effectively in spatial terms using the echolocation of bats as an analogy.

Essentially, bats use sound in order to understand where they are relative to predators, prey or obstacles. Echolocation is a vastly simpler process than identity formation for obvious reasons. It isn't a psycho-social process, but instead is one grounded in mere physicality. All human beings must undergo a period of orienting themselves in the world as distinct beings from their mother. This occurs when children exert themsleves and test their environment through behavior. The human mind is inherently pattern seeking. In this exercise, the structural integrity of an emotional environment is more important than specific repsonses. What I mean by that is, the consistency of responses to a child's action is more important to a child "locating" itself as an individual within the confines of his/her body than the kind of response. The more inconsistent the response, the less the child can make order of what is required and who they are or must be. Inconsistent or avoidant parents don't make solid emotional landscapes for children to use to identify themselves as individuals. For example, there is a high correlation between Bipolar parents and BPD/NPD children. This makes sense, given the irregularity a mood disorder such as Bipolar is likely to provide.

These disorders occur on a spectrum of both strength and nature. A weak or low-functioning Borderline will be more obvious because many will be prone to self-harm and overtly so. While this is terrible for them, this might be a preferable situation for those in a relationship compared to the other end of the spectrum. A strong or high-functioning Borderline will be less prone to self-destructive behavior and more prone to manipulation, acquisitive impulsivity, passive-aggressive threats, career/reputation sabotage, direct violence, violence by proxy, etc. against anyone who denies them. Think narcissism effectively delivered from a passive position. This is usually relegated to those who are close or "enmeshed" with them.

If a child fails to properly individuate during the biological window required, they may have to repeat the process of "acting out" over the course of their entire adult lives in order to remind themselves that they are real and located within their bodies. This is why those with Cluster B disorders are variations on a theme of pathologically requiring heightened cause-effect relationships with those who are close to them. Getting concern from or provably hurting someone else manufactures evidence that the disordered person is "real" and present. Though this requirement is called obtaining "narcissistic supply" it is not married merely to a Narcissistic Personality Disorder diagnosis. It's inherent to all of Cluster B. They differ in style of execution. Their suffering is very real, but it is also often thoroughly devastating to all who become "enmeshed" with them, especially children. If you are a parent in a relationship with someone with BPD, NPD or any Cluster B disorder, it would be very irresponsible not to formulate an exit strategy. It has nothing to do with fault or blame. Children deserve to be protected from pathologically destructive behavior.

DBT and CBT are common therapy strategies that professionals employ with BPD, but the success rates are incredibly low. Many therapists screen for the traits and if a positive diagnosis is likley, cease to have availability for the patient. They do this because the possibility of a perception of enmeshment from the patient's perspective, resulting from the act of being in a patient - therapist relationship is high. That means the risk of the therapist becoming locked in the Borderline's list of viable sources to obtain narcissistic supply is high. The risk is then distributed to all patients seen by that clinician because each of them is a potential point of manipulation for said clinician.

In my opinion, Margalis Fjelstad's Stop Caretaking the Borderline or Narcissist: How to End the Drama and Get On with Life does what Walking on Eggshells does, but goes further and is more descriptive and practical. If anyone needs to protect themselves, it should be taken very seriously and acted upon immediately.
 
Last edited:
Nautilidae said:
Otto Kernberg and Marsha Linehan are leading psychologists working with Cluster B disorders. Both are featured on the BorderlinerNotes YouTube channel. I highly recommend looking into it.

Eitiology is not completely solidified for most disorders, but strong evidence suggests that BPD has components of both genetic susceptibility as well as emotional environment experienced by the subject roughly between the ages of 6 months to 6 years of age. This is when identity begins to coalesce. I have seen it described effectively in spatial terms using the echolocation of bats as an analogy.

Essentially, bats use sound in order to understand where they are relative to predators, prey or obstacles. Echolocation is a vastly simpler process than identity formation for obvious reasons. It isn't a psycho-social process, but instead is one grounded in mere physicality. All human beings must undergo a period of orienting themselves in the world as distinct beings from their mother. This occurs when children exert themsleves and test their environment through behavior. The human mind is inherently pattern seeking. In this exercise, the structural integrity of an emotional environment is more important than specific repsonses. What I mean by that is, the consistency of responses to a child's action is more important to a child "locating" itself as an individual within the confines of his/her body than the kind of response. The more inconsistent the response, the less the child can make order of what is required and who they are or must be. Inconsistent or avoidant parents don't make solid emotional landscapes for children to use to identify themselves as individuals. For example, there is a high correlation between Bipolar parents and BPD/NPD children. This makes sense, given the irregularity a mood disorder such as Bipolar is likely to provide.

These disorders occur on a spectrum of both strength and nature. A weak or low-functioning Borderline will be more obvious because many will be prone to self-harm and overtly so. While this is terrible for them, this might be a preferable situation for those in a relationship compared to the other end of the spectrum. A strong or high-functioning Borderline will be less prone to self-destructive behavior and more prone to manipulation, acquisitive impulsivity, passive-aggressive threats, career/reputation sabotage, direct violence, violence by proxy, etc. against anyone who denies them. Think narcissism effectively delivered from a passive position. This is usually relegated to those who are close or "enmeshed" with them.

If a child fails to properly individuate during the biological window required, they may have to repeat the process of "acting out" over the course of their entire adult lives in order to remind themselves that they are real and located within their bodies. This is why those with Cluster B disorders are variations on a theme of pathologically requiring heightened cause-effect relationships with those who are close to them. Getting concern from or provably hurting someone else manufactures evidence that the disordered person is "real" and present. Though this requirement is called obtaining "narcissistic supply" it is not married merely to a Narcissistic Personality Disorder diagnosis. It's inherent to all of Cluster B. They differ in style of execution. Their suffering is very real, but it is also often thoroughly devastating to all who become "enmeshed" with them, especially children. If you are a parent in a relationship with someone with BPD, NPD or any Cluster B disorder, it would be very irresponsible not to formulate an exit strategy. It has nothing to do with fault or blame. Children deserve to be protected from pathologically destructive behavior.

DBT and CBT are common therapy strategies that professionals employ with BPD, but the success rates are incredibly low. Many therapists screen for the traits and if a positive diagnosis is likley, cease to have availability for the patient. They do this because the possibility of a perception of enmeshment from the patient's perspective, resulting from the act of being in a patient - therapist relationship is high. That means the risk of the therapist becoming locked in the Borderline's list of viable sources to obtain narcissistic supply is high. The risk is then distributed to all patients seen by that clinician because each of them is a potential point of manipulation for said clinician.

In my opinion, Margalis Fjelstad's Stop Caretaking the Borderline or Narcissist: How to End the Drama and Get On with Life does what Walking on Eggshells does, but goes further and is more descriptive and practical. If anyone needs to protect themselves, it should be taken very seriously and acted upon immediately.
Click to expand...
Bitch what the actual fuck are you talking about with borderliners needing narcisistic supply. Get your uneducated ass out of here and spread your up-side-down bullshit somewhere else. Borderliners don't need narcisistic supply. We HAVE BEEN narcisistic supply many years for our narcisistic parent. We are usually highly empathic. That is why many borderliners have the INFJ personality. My best friend and myself are the example of that. And what do you mean stop caretaking of the borderliner? When we are in a relationship (especially the weak kind of borderliner like me) we usually make sure the person we are in a relationship with is beautiful and perfect and want to make them feel as good as possible. We are also the most loyal persons you will meet, especially INFJ borderliners. With the way you paint borderliners as the evil ones, I am suspecting you are actually a narcisist trying to make the victims seem as the evil ones.
 
BeautifulSuffering said:
Bitch what the actual fuck are you talking about with borderliners needing narcisistic supply. Get your uneducated ass out of here and spread your up-side-down bullshit somewhere else. Borderliners don't need narcisistic supply. We HAVE BEEN narcisistic supply many years for our narcisistic parent. We are usually highly empathic. That is why many borderliners have the INFJ personality. My best friend and myself are the example of that. And what do you mean stop caretaking of the borderliner? When we are in a relationship (especially the weak kind of borderliner like me) we usually make sure the person we are in a relationship with is beautiful and perfect and want to make them feel as good as possible. We are also the most loyal persons you will meet, especially INFJ borderliners. With the way you paint borderliners as the evil ones, I am suspecting you are actually a narcisist trying to make the victims seem as the evil ones.
Click to expand...

Terminology is often an obstacle when speaking about topics in psychology that are familiar to laypersons and popular culture. That's what is likely responsible for the first misunderstanding, at least so I'll clarify here. Afterward I'll post a more exhaustive explanation of BPD from a clinical perspective just to be thorough and tidy about it.

...what the actual fuck are you talking about with borderliners needing narcisistic supply...Borderliners don't need narcisistic supply. We HAVE BEEN narcisistic supply many years for our narcisistic parent.
Click to expand...

Firstly, "narcissistic supply" describes a type of admiration, interpersonal support or sustenance drawn by an individual from his or her environment which is essential to their self-esteem. The entirety of Cluster B disorders are marked as inherently identity-driven as well as addressed via interpersonal means. In this way, the word "narcissistic" does not mean relegated to those specifically diagnosed with Narcissistic Personality Disorder (NPD). The 4 major variants of Cluster B disorders, Histrionic, Anti-Social, Borderline & Narcissistic) all possess the characteristic demand for behavior/responses from others in accordance with the disorder, disregarding of the autonomy of the other person. The differences across those disorders is often a matter of style of expression in the goal of obtaining supply. Self-harm, guilting, revisionism, identity manipulation, passive-aggression, histrionics, aggression, etc. describe very different kinds of events. What unifies them is the purpose it serves for the Cluster B person (get a response, obtain supply) and the central principle underpinning what it does to the person on the receiving end, namely a loss of autonomy both within a situation and, over time, the loss of a sense that autonomy is available whatsoever.

Secondly, yes, those with BPD (and many other disorders including all of Cluster B) frequently have narcissistic/bipolar/borderline/schizophrenic/avoidant/etc. parents. That describes a component in the matrix of causal mechanisms for BPD and many disorders. It also has no bearing on what BPD, NPD or any other disorder means or what they produce. No child deserves to have an abusive, unstable parent. This is a point of sympathy all people should share. Both, the common causes of cluster B disorders (genetic susceptibility & poor care) and the internal feelings/world of the disordered person (fear, lack of sense of self, anger, anxiety, depression) are real and should be respected. The point is not to allow sympathy to define the discussion in totality, because BPD/NPD/HPD/ASPD/etc. are still, in fact, disorders. More importantly, they are disorders with an interpersonal dimension, wherein those who come to find themselves closest (enmeshed) to the disordered person also suffer greatly and frequently do not survive. The underlying causes of someone's pathology does not eradicate the externalized products of that pathology and those on the receiving end deserve assistance and the option to not participate if required or desired.

We are usually highly empathic...When we are in a relationship (especially the weak kind of borderliner like me) we usually make sure the person we are in a relationship with is beautiful and perfect and want to make them feel as good as possible.
Click to expand...

Cluster B personality disorders are identity disorders. They are not synonymous with psychopathy or sociopathy, so yes, empathy was never on the table, nor was it mentioned in my comment. And while we're on the topic of things that aren't synonymous, the intentions, inner motives and feelings of someone is also not synonymous with what they do or the behavior they give to others. Clinicians don't use the term "caretaker" to identify those who love and have relationships with BPD/NPD/etc. persons for no reason. If the BPD/NPD/etc. diagnosis was simply about people who feel bad, but happen to treat people really well, it wouldn't be the socially devastating issue that it is. Those with Cluster B disorders, especially BPD, can and do absolutely feel empathy, provide gestures and show warmth to those they love. Additionally, they manipulate, guilt, gaslight, scorekeep and destroy lives, regarless of their intentions. This is just as central to the condition as the portion that lends itself to sympathy for the disordered person. Titles like, "Stop Walking on Eggshells", "Stop Caretaking the Borderline or Narcissist", the rates of depression, suicide, etc. among those in the caretaker position doesn't describe a group of fulfilled people. It doesn't describe a group of people who feel "as good as possible." Instead, it describes the opposite. Caretakers are usually marked by two common characteristics, high conscientiousness and low self-esteem. Both traits are harmoniously aligned with the requirements of the particular kind of codependent relationship that Cluster B defines.

With the way you paint borderliners as the evil ones..
Click to expand...

Evil is a useless distinction when talking about most people. The same holds true here and that is my position. Stated clearly, BPD/NPD/HPD/ASPD people aren't evil at all. I don't have to rest on opinion to arrive here. Clinically, provably, they are people who are absolutely in a hell that is not of their making. Adding to the cruelty of this is the fact that, for many, the catalyst was abuse or neglect visited upon them by people who were trusted with a sacred responsibility. I've heard clergy state that, "evil" requires knowledge and intent. Psychology sobers this axiom with one word that we can choose to employ in our quest to always keep empathy close at hand. That word is pathology. In this context, it can imply something beyond the clinical. It can and should be used to remove the bile from our sentiment about this unfortunate valley of the human condition. Disordered people are victims of chance and frequently of other people. It can often be difficult to hold this thought in mind while also giving the reality of disordered behavior, in this case, the behavior that other innocent loved ones will receive, its due. It is, however, a difficult thing we should value and work towards.
 
As promised:

BORDERLINE PERSONALITY DISORDER (BPD)
The clinical term “borderline personality disorder” came into use to describe ongoing, long-lasting dysfunctional behaviors in people who did not have a full-blown psychosis, such as schizophrenia, but who also were significantly more dysfunctional than people with problems of anxiety and depression. BPD is described by the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (4th ed.) ( DSM-IV ) as a “pervasive pattern of instability of interpersonal relationships, self-image and affects or moods, and marked impulsivity, beginning by early adulthood and present in a variety of contexts,” including at least five of the following:

  1. Frantic efforts to avoid real or imagined abandonment. Persons with BPD may not be willing or able to do much of anything alone. The borderline person, or BP, can become frantic over events such as having lunch alone or having to be at home alone at night. BPs may drink, call loved ones dozens of times an hour, go out and pick up a stranger for sex, have crying fits, or cut themselves to avoid being alone. The more dramatic, intense, and self-destructive the BP’s behaviors, the more dysfunctional the person usually is.

  2. A pattern of unstable and intense interpersonal relationships. This refers to the pattern of the BP going from intense love and adoration to intense hate, rage, and anger over and over in love relationships. BPs are known for being happy one minute and threatening divorce a few minutes later. They break up with loved ones, only to get back together and break up over and over.

  3. Unstable self-image or sense of self. The BP may not believe that he or she exists in the mind of others unless the other person is in direct contact and giving direct feedback to the BP. The BP can receive a loving comment and in the same conversation state that she believes she is not loved or even thought well of by the other person. The BP alternately sees himself as all good or all bad, superior or inferior, caring or hateful. The BP finds it hard to hold in mind different feelings and different qualities of personality together at the same time.

  4. Impulsivity. Because the BP has strong, wildly fluctuating emotions that are extremely intense, he or she often acts impulsively and may respond suddenly with extremely negative or extremely positive emotions. He may throw things, walk out of an anniversary dinner, shout profanities in public, or send dozens of red roses or propose to a new love he’s just met a few hours earlier. Often the BP responds quite differently to the same situation at different times. This makes it very hard to predict how a BP may act in any given moment.

  5. Recurrent suicidal behavior, gestures, or threats of self-mutilation. The BP’s emotional reactions to disappointment, loss, fear, anxiety, or abandonment can be extreme. She can believe that the current feeling will, literally, never go away, so suicide can seem to be the only answer. Cutting or burning herself with cigarettes may be used by the BP to decrease her awareness of her emotional pain by focusing on a concrete physical pain.

  6. Mood instability, reactivity, depression, anxiety, rage, and despair. This is a hallmark of BPD. The BP is extremely vulnerable to falling into negative moods in an instant and is usually very fast to change moods, sometimes within seconds or minutes, and these emotions can fluctuate quickly back and forth. These emotions are often extremely strong, and the BP is at a loss as to how to handle them alone.

  7. Chronic feelings of emptiness. The BP may feel invisible and often does not believe that anyone remembers her when she is not in that person’s presence. She may expect others to not think about her when she is gone but at the same time may be enraged by not having her needs anticipated. She may have no sense of who she is, what she wants in life, or what her skills, values, or beliefs are, but she may also expect a loved one to know these things for her.

  8. Inappropriate intense anger or difficulty controlling anger. The intensity of the BP’s anger can be shocking to others around him. The BP may act physically abusive, striking out by hitting, throwing things, screaming, threatening harm, or, in extreme cases, killing the loved one. He can also act in emotionally abusive ways through blaming, put-downs, impossible demands, and ultimatums. The BP cannot seem to let go of such intense anger even with the attention of a loved one. If the BP feels an emotion, whatever it is, that feeling is absolutely true to the BP and cannot be changed by logic. Because the BP cannot figure out how the emotion came about, he or she usually blames someone else for causing the feeling.

  9. Transient, stress-related paranoid ideas or severe dissociative symptoms. This is the most confusing symptom demonstrated by the BP. The BP can instantaneously change from seeing a loved one as precious and supportive person to seeing the same loved one as a threatening enemy. As a result, the BP can say things and act toward her spouse and child in ways that she would do only to her worst, most hated enemy. In addition, the BP typically forgets what he said and did a few hours or a day later, and he almost never understands the emotional impact of his outburst on his loved ones. While the hurtful words and actions still sting in the other person, the BP sees no reason to apologize or even discuss what happened because as far as the BP is concerned, it never even happened or is “all in the past.”
Another way to get an even clearer picture of borderline behaviors is to look at the five areas of unstable, erratic, dysfunctional, and unpredictable behaviors that have been identified by Marsha Linehan in people with BPD. The following examples of these daily behaviors, thoughts, and feelings of the BP might seem clearer than the therapeutic descriptions by the DSM-IV .

Relationship Instability

  • Instantly fall in love or instantly end a relationship with no logical explanation.
  • Hostile, devaluing verbal attacks on loved ones while being charming and pleasant to strangers.
  • Overidealization of others (e.g., difficulty allowing others to be less than perfect, be vulnerable, or make mistakes).
  • Have trouble being alone even for short periods of time yet also push people away by picking fights.
  • Blaming, accusing, and attacking loved ones for small, even trivial mistakes or accidents.
  • May try to avoid anticipated rejection by rejecting the other person first.
  • Difficulty feeling loved if the other person is not around.
  • Highly controlling and demanding of others.
  • Unwilling to recognize and respect the limits of others.
  • Demand rights, commitments, and behaviors from others that they are not willing or able to reciprocate.
Emotional Instability

  • Intense emotional neediness, which may be covered up by a facade of independence.
  • Sudden emotional outbursts of rage and despair that seem random.
  • Belief that the emotions of the moment are totally accurate and will last forever.
  • Inaccurate memory of emotional events, even changing the meaning of the events after the fact.
  • Seeing their emotions as being caused by others or by events outside themselves, with no belief that they have any sort of control over their own emotions.
  • Believing that the only way to change how they feel is to get other people or events to change.
  • Ongoing, intense anxiety and fear.
Thought Instability

  • All-or-nothing thinking (e.g., loving you intensely and just as quickly reversing to hating you or thinking that they are a total failure or, conversely, immensely superior).
  • Intense belief in their own perceptions despite facts to the contrary.
  • Their interpretation of events is the only truth.
  • Constantly searching for the “hidden meaning” (always negative) in conversations and events. current feelings.

Behavioral Instability

  • Impulsive behavior (e.g., sexual acting out, reckless behavior, gambling, going into dangerous situations with little awareness, or shoplifting).
  • Physically, sexually, or emotionally abusive to others.
  • May cut, burn, or mutilate themselves.
  • Often have addictions to alcohol, prescription or street drugs (especially for pain relief or for sleep), spending money, eating disorders, or other compulsive behaviors.
  • Create crises and chaos continuously.
  • Often quickly go to suicidal thoughts when disappointed or disagreed with.

Instability of a Sense of Self

  • Intense fear or paranoia about being rejected, even to the extent that they need to be approved of by people they don’t like.
  • Often change their persona, opinions, or beliefs, depending on who they are with.
  • Lack of a consistent sense of who they are or may have a overly rigid picture of the self.
  • Often present a facade. May be fearful of being seen for “who I really am.” Automatically assuming that they will be rejected or criticized.
  • May never have formed any real beliefs, opinions, or interests of their own.
  • Act inappropriately or outrageously to get attention.
  • Have difficulty adjusting to changes in the looks of loved ones (e.g., new mustache, haircut, or new style of dress).
  • Out of sight, out of mind. Difficulty realizing that they or others exist when not together.
  • Simultaneously see themselves as both inferior and superior to others.
[Sources: Margalis Fjelstad, PhD & DSM-IV]
 
Nautilidae said:
Firstly, "narcissistic supply" describes a type of admiration, interpersonal support or sustenance drawn by an individual from his or her environment which is essential to their self-esteem. The entirety of Cluster B disorders are marked as inherently identity-driven as well as addressed via interpersonal means. In this way, the word "narcissistic" does not mean relegated to those specifically diagnosed with Narcissistic Personality Disorder (NPD). The 4 major variants of Cluster B disorders, Histrionic, Anti-Social, Borderline & Narcissistic) all possess the characteristic demand for behavior/responses from others in accordance with the disorder, disregarding of the autonomy of the other person. The differences across those disorders is often a matter of style of expression in the goal of obtaining supply. Self-harm, guilting, revisionism, identity manipulation, passive-aggression, histrionics, aggression, etc. describe very different kinds of events. What unifies them is the purpose it serves for the Cluster B person (get a response, obtain supply) and the central principle underpinning what it does to the person on the receiving end, namely a loss of autonomy both within a situation and, over time, the loss of a sense that autonomy is available whatsoever.
Click to expand...
Still wrong. Narcistic supply is narcistic supply. Nothing more nothing less. It is something only narcisists have. It is the constant need to hear from others how perfect they are and how the world can not survive without them. That is the intention of the narcisist; living like a parasite on people, sucking their energy out of them for their egoistic needs. When someone is that person they are constantly fishing compliments out of, than you call that person narcisistic supply. No other personality disorder has this need for people to tell them they are perfect, when they already think they are. Borderliners need to hear we wont be left alone and that the persons we love won't suddenly go away. That is not narcisistic supply.
 
BeautifulSuffering said:
Still wrong. Narcistic supply is narcistic supply. Nothing more nothing less. It is something only narcisists have. It is the constant need to hear from others how perfect they are and how the world can not survive without them. That is the intention of the narcisist; living like a parasite on people, sucking their energy out of them for their egoistic needs. When someone is that person they are constantly fishing compliments out of, than you call that person narcisistic supply. No other personality disorder has this need for people to tell them they are perfect, when they already think they are. Borderliners need to hear we wont be left alone and that the persons we love won't suddenly go away. That is not narcisistic supply.
Click to expand...

Two things are happening.

1. You are conflating the colloquial and generic idea of the word "narcissist" with what the clinical term "narcissistic supply" means. It's understandable given how negative the colloquial connotation is. So to be clear, and to properly delineate:
  • A narcissist brags, boasts & gives overt cues to people in an attempt to receive external evidence of their anxiety-driven identity construct from other people. "Overt" describes the style of operation, not what they seek to obtain.
  • A borderline guilts, revises history & passive-aggresively threatens in an attempt to receive external evidence that their anxiety-driven fear of abandonment won't come true. "Passive" or passive-aggressive" describes the style of operation, not what they seek to obtain.
  • In both situations, those on the receiving end don't have a choice about receiving the pressure. Where a narcissist will insult to manipulate, a borderline will guilt to manipulate. Manipulation in order to obtain desired/needed behavior from another person is the goal of each approach.
  • Narcissistic supply is a concept introduced into psychoanalytic theory by Otto Fenichel in 1938, to describe a type of admiration, interpersonal support or sustenance drawn by an individual from his or her environment and essential to their self-esteem. (Otto Fenichel, 1938)
2. You are confusing facts with opinion. Opinions aren't necessary for this topic because it's already well researched, studied and has been documented for a very long time. Imposing the needs of the BPD/NPD either through passive or aggressive means, onto others is a requirement of the diagnoses. "Narcissistic supply" describes ANY external validation that is sought by a Cluster B disordered person that involves either passive or overt coercion.

"Given that a BPD hallmark is interpersonal relationships that alternate between idealization and devaluation, the person with BPD may distort facts aimed at the person with whom they desire a personal relationship.

Whether through attempts to draw persons into relationships or viscously attack another during episodes of the extreme rage associated with perceived abandonment-the borderline personality may use lies and deceitfulness to accomplish these objectives."
~Clarence Watson, JD, MD
Click to expand...
 
How many people on this thread are unbiased psychologists or psychiatrists? How many are slaves to stigma and how many actually have Borderline Personality Disorder? Is MBTI a test for the categories that human being fall into, so can't human beings have mental disorders? Why talk so foolishly about things we don't understand? Last time I checked being abused, neglected, used etc aren't the fault of the individual. Mental illness is no joke whether a person is a psychopath or has anxiety on a daily basis. There's always going to be evil people and good people in every category you choose to classify people. Think about that people. And yes INFJs get angry and all that too. They aren't perfect, no one is.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top