INFJs and Violence

[Billy]

It's more a question of ego. I point to what Julia said.

Yeah I know a lot of pacifists who refused to fight when people starting beating on them. They had to leave town eventually because everyone starting beating on them.

If someone spits on your woman are you going to sit still or are you going to rearrange their face? If you are a man you are going to throw down, if you don't you deserve to lose her for not defending her.

Ghandi was a good man, but he wasn't exactly a realistic model to follow, he also hated certain castes of Indians, so he wasn't perfect.

If someone sets on you, you have a right to defend yourself. As long as you aren't out looking for fights you are a good person.

And sometimes you cant stand your ground in a non violent way, there are situations where its fight or flight. Because standing there and taking the abuse will get you killed ultimately.

 

[smiffy]

Yeah I know a lot of pacifists who refused to fight when people starting beating on them. They had to leave town eventually because everyone starting beating on them.

If someone spits on your woman are you going to sit still or are you going to rearrange their face? If you are a man you are going to throw down, if you don't you deserve to lose her for not defending her.

Ghandi was a good man, but he wasn't exactly a realistic model to follow, he also hated certain castes of Indians, so he wasn't perfect.

If someone sets on you, you have a right to defend yourself. As long as you aren't out looking for fights you are a good person.

And sometimes you cant stand your ground in a non violent way, there are situations where its fight or flight. Because standing there and taking the abuse will get you killed ultimately.

I agree sometinmes you have to defend yourself, its a judgement call on the situation, i once beat the shit outta one of the bullies at the school because of 2 separate instances the first i didnt stand up for myself and then he tried again 2 weeks later, so in that case it was fight of take abuse for 3 more years, I was never touched after that! but it was quite scary at the time, these days I try not to be put in positions of violence, all my friends arent violent and lucky for me I havent had to fight in a long,long time!

 

[Billy]

I agree sometinmes you have to defend yourself, its a judgement call on the situation, i once beat the shit outta one of the bullies at the school because of 2 separate instances the first i didnt stand up for myself and then he tried again 2 weeks later, so in that case it was fight of take abuse for 3 more years, I was never touched after that! but it was quite scary at the time, these days I try not to be put in positions of violence, all my friends arent violent and lucky for me I havent had to fight in a long,long time!

For sure, I never go looking for a fight I hate fighting I dont like to hurt people, i always feel so guilty. But if someone wants to dance, i have no problem putting my personality and my feelings to the side and taking care of business. I will never let someone get the best of me, and I don't let people push me around. I respect peoples personal space and such if I dont get the same and someone wants to fight I am happy to oblige.

 

[smiffy]

haha I'm never happy to oblige in this situations, well unfortunately there are people who's whole life is violence and if they want to get the better of you physically they will, or perhaps the numbers game might kick in, so every situation is different! Some people are so skilled at street fighting its not even funny. Hopefully I wont have to find out anytime soon!

There are times when flight is the best option!

 

[Julia]

Part of the problem with aggression and violence is that by its nature, it tends to feel justified. Entitlement and anger are closely related because anger is the result of feeling that our rights have been violated. Sometimes this is the case, but if you look outside the context of personal experience, you then see that every act of violence tends to be viewed as justified from inside the subjective context of that individual's life.

Consider those times another person has acted in violence against you, and realize that they probably felt entirely justified in doing that based on their own personal perceptions and distortions about who people are and what they deserve. Everyone from the retaliation of a gang member, to the violence of a dictator, the gossip who feels socially threatened, to the person who beats their family, or the person who just enjoys making others feel hurt: these people all tend to see their acts of aggression as just. Having the ability to take a step back and realize that our own certainty about what others "deserve" can be as distorted by our own limitations in experience and perception.

I am not suggesting that a person should allow violence to be committed. One measure of creating a boundary that is reasoned and just vs. one that is an indulgence of personal aggression has to do with this concept of punishment. One must create boundaries to be safe and healthy in the world, but this can be done without that sense of taking pleasure in punishing another person. If it is done out of a sense of revenge or punishment, then that person's perception is distorted by their personal vantage point, and it is unlikely that they are able to see the complete picture.

 

[smiffy]

Part of the problem with aggression and violence is that by its nature, it tends to feel justified. Entitlement and anger are closely related because anger is the result of feeling that our rights have been violated. Sometimes this is the case, but if you look outside the context of personal experience, you then see that every act of violence tends to be viewed as justified from inside the subjective context of that individual's life.

Consider those times another person has acted in violence against you, and realize that they probably felt entirely justified in doing that based on their own personal perceptions and distortions about who people are and what they deserve. Everyone from the retaliation of a gang member, to the violence of a dictator, the gossip who feels socially threatened, to the person who beats their family, or the person who just enjoys making others feel hurt: these people all tend to see their acts of aggression as just. Having the ability to take a step back and realize that our own certainty about what others "deserve" can be as distorted by our own limitations in experience and perception.

I am not suggesting that a person should allow violence to be committed. One measure of creating a boundary that is reasoned and just vs. one that is an indulgence of personal aggression has to do with this concept of punishment. One must create boundaries to be safe and healthy in the world, but this can be done without that sense of taking pleasure in punishing another person. If it is done out of a sense of revenge or punishment, then that person's perception is distorted by their personal vantage point, and it is unlikely that they are able to see the complete picture.

yep I agree but sometimes some people just aren't rational, and although not an ideal way to resolve the issue its the best choice out of a bad bunch

 

[Julia]

yep I agree but sometimes some people just aren't rational, and although not an ideal way to resolve the issue its the best choice out of a bad bunch

I agree with you, and want to be clear that I'm not saying there is never a reason to fight or maintain a strong boundary. One does have to stand their ground to live safely in the world, but this can be done without hating or dehumanizing your opponent.

There have a been times in my life where someone punished me for their idea about who I was and not because of anything I did. It really sucks to be punished for being the target for some ugly imaginary picture another person holds in their mind, and I have worked to never do that to anyone. It happens almost all the time and every one of us is probably capable of it, so it is important to bring that to the surface, own it, and encourage a more reasoned approach to resolving conflict.

 

[Orion]

Yeah I know a lot of pacifists who refused to fight when people starting beating on them. They had to leave town eventually because everyone starting beating on them.

If someone spits on your woman are you going to sit still or are you going to rearrange their face? If you are a man you are going to throw down, if you don't you deserve to lose her for not defending her.

Ghandi was a good man, but he wasn't exactly a realistic model to follow, he also hated certain castes of Indians, so he wasn't perfect.

If someone sets on you, you have a right to defend yourself. As long as you aren't out looking for fights you are a good person.

And sometimes you cant stand your ground in a non violent way, there are situations where its fight or flight. Because standing there and taking the abuse will get you killed ultimately.

I understand all this fully well. Preaching to the converted here! There are two circumstances where I will use violence: If I fear for my own life, or if I fear for the safety of others. In my experience, most situations come to a violent end because of one's inability to cope with the "Pre-fight". Learning to read the signs and avoid and diffuse violence is the real skill. This has to be taken into consideration first.

Considering that most violence is egotistical means that it can be avoided and that with the proper mind set, an attitude towards not getting into a situation will help you. This is what most people will ever need to avoid violence in their lives. If you aren't insecure, you'll never need to prove yourself and you are less likely to consciously or subconsciously feel the need to engage in conflict with another.

This is what I'm saying: My attitude towards people has changed and I will give them the benefit of the doubt. I am no longer allowing my ego, my insecurity, my anger or frustration to drag me into hurting people. I recognise what these emotions have done to myself and others. I will overcome them and I wanna love people not hate them. I know that sounds corny but that's simply it.

However, if someone is determined to hurt me, chances are it won't premeditated. It'll be opportunist for either financial or sadistic gain. Of course, I'll tear them a new ass hole. Here I'm making a distinction between Survival and Personal/emotional conflict. Sure, personal conflict can and will escalate to life threatening but like I said, avoidance and awareness of personal conflict will allow you to diffuse it.

What I'm referring to, is a mindset that isn't necessarily coupled with fighting. It's about just loving people more and seeing the better because I've been seeing the bad for too long, thinking that all the anger could be used for something. It can, be it must be converted into something positive. Which is the process I'm going through right now.

 

[Orion]

If someone spits on your woman are you going to sit still or are you going to rearrange their face? If you are a man you are going to throw down, if you don't you deserve to lose her for not defending her.

Now this is an interesting dilemma. If someone spat on my girlfriend while we were walking around town, I know, like any other man, that I would shred him to pieces- and I know I could.

However that is a vengeful act, it is immoral. It is not justice. Justice would be to get a description of the man, report the incident to the Police and press charges when he is caught from CCTV and in cell.

I know that is the proper thing to do to, because it cannot be considered justice if my personal involvement was swaying me. But at the same time, I think I, she and the people around me would probably felt it was personally justified for me to avenge the situation. There in lies people's inability to really act in a violent way with any sense of morality because you are committing the act, it cannot be considered justice.

 

[Billy]

Now this is an interesting dilemma. If someone spat on my girlfriend while we were walking around town, I know, like any other man, that I would shred him to pieces- and I know I could.

However that is a vengeful act, it is immoral. It is not justice. Justice would be to get a description of the man, report the incident to the Police and press charges when he is caught from CCTV and in cell.

I know that is the proper thing to do to, because it cannot be considered justice if my personal involvement was swaying me. But at the same time, I think I, she and the people around me would probably felt it was personally justified for me to avenge the situation. There in lies people's inability to really act in a violent way with any sense of morality because you are committing the act, it cannot be considered justice.

There is all kinds of justice. Legal justice is a joke and I would never rely on that. If someone spit on your woman and you did nothing but take a description the police wouldn't even follow up on it. They have murders and rapes to solve. The guy at most would get a slap on the wrist, not exactly jarring to someone who is likely to already have a criminal record.

I would probably pull his tongue out. I don't care for morality, I gave up on trying to live for everyone else rules long ago. Now I live by my own rules. I give respect to those who give it to me, those who do not get ignored, avoided or beaten down. I try to diffuse fights, but my motto is that its much better to hit 1st then to get hit and have to react. A guy once asked me to step outside from a bar I was in because he claimed I was sitting in his seat (I wasn't he just wanted to talk to my friend I was with, a girl) When I said no, he started talking shit, then he made the mistake of putting his hand on my shoulder to turn me around. I could have sucker punched him there but I let it slide. He said "lets go outside" I said ok got up and knocked him right the hell out. Why do I need to go otuside if I know we are going to fight, I can do it right here. We left after that. Never heard anythign about it again.

 

[Orion]

I would probably pull his tongue out. I don't care for morality, I gave up on trying to live for everyone else rules long ago. Now I live by my own rules. I give respect to those who give it to me, those who do not get ignored, avoided or beaten down. I try to diffuse fights, but my motto is that its much better to hit 1st then to get hit and have to react. A guy once asked me to step outside from a bar I was in because he claimed I was sitting in his seat (I wasn't he just wanted to talk to my friend I was with, a girl) When I said no, he started talking shit, then he made the mistake of putting his hand on my shoulder to turn me around. I could have sucker punched him there but I let it slide. He said "lets go outside" I said ok got up and knocked him right the hell out. Why do I need to go otuside if I know we are going to fight, I can do it right here. We left after that. Never heard anythign about it again.

I respect your input and from a combative sense I agree but I'm not going to get dragged into a conversation about fighting. That's not the point. This is ego stroking and I'm not interested in that at all. I've stated my approach and I'm going to work on it and apply it.

 

[AUM]

Weird. I've never been in a fight before, never been bullied or any other kind of incidents that would had required me to solve a dispute with violence. So I don't know how I would react when one of these days I'm put in a situation like the ones posted above.

 

[Orion]

Weird. I've never been in a fight before, never been bullied or any other kind of incidents that would had required me to solve a dispute with violence. So I don't know how I would react when one of these days I'm put in a situation like the ones posted above.

I hope, with all my heart, that you never do! Just be safe.

 

[Serendipity]

I'm much more prone to just sit and take grief than to defend myself, but I've witnessed an INFJ literally go off on an employee who was disrespecting him and his position. There was no violence involved because they were two grown men in a respectable establishment, but I've never seen anyone's face get so red.

On the other hand, when it comes to defending others, I can show sides of myself that I never even knew existed. My best friend's boyfriend made her cry one day and I called him up and cursed him out, which was highly uncharacteristic of me. Also, I was at the beach with a couple of buddies one day and a huge bull shark chased a tarpon up to the shore, right next to two girls. My first instinct was to run toward the girls and the shark, so I did. I've been trying to figure that one out for a while now, hehe! But all in all, I think the only time I could ever really get ballsy and/or violent without even considering the consequences, would be in defense of someone else.

 

[smiffy]

I'm much more prone to just sit and take grief than to defend myself, but I've witnessed an INFJ literally go off on an employee who was disrespecting him and his position. There was no violence involved because they were two grown men in a respectable establishment, but I've never seen anyone's face get so red.

On the other hand, when it comes to defending others, I can show sides of myself that I never even knew existed. My best friend's boyfriend made her cry one day and I called him up and cursed him out, which was highly uncharacteristic of me. Also, I was at the beach with a couple of buddies one day and a huge bull shark chased a tarpon up to the shore, right next to two girls. My first instinct was to run toward the girls and the shark, so I did. I've been trying to figure that one out for a while now, hehe! But all in all, I think the only time I could ever really get ballsy and/or violent without even considering the consequences, would be in defense of someone else.

did you hear of the story of the bull shark who bit a kids arm off the uncle ran in caught the shark dragged it onto shore, they got the kids arm and reattached it! you werent thinking od doing that were you?

 

[Serendipity]

did you hear of the story of the bull shark who bit a kids arm off the uncle ran in caught the shark dragged it onto shore, they got the kids arm and reattached it! you werent thinking od doing that were you?

Ha! Honestly, I wasn't thinking that far ahead. But I suppose it would be the ideal situation!

 

[Chenoa]

This is a cool and interesting topic, one I've wondered about and thought about posting about but wasn't sure how. Now I don't have to! Yay!
I've had a fair amount of exposure to violence groing up. I've been through three of my mom's four divorces and all of them involved some level of violence. Being blind doesn't help much because, if you can't see that the person yelling and screaming so loudly isn't about to get physical, it's kind of hard to tell. So, mom and whatever husband would both get physical in some form or other. My mom, who grew up in a subsection of hell with an abusive mother and worse crap from her loser stepfather which was never dealt with, still sort likes to get in peoples' faces and do the punch in the shoulder thing sometimes to, I don't know, emphasize that's she's frustrated with whatever. So, anyway, growing up, they'd smack each other, sometimes she'd get frustrated and smack us, then we'd recognize the patern and smack each other. Except for the youngest, us kids have grown up and learned, mostly, from mom's mistakes. I had an unhealthy attachment to violence growing up, like movies and stuff, and a morbid fascination for what people could do to each other. After all, it's an evil, but necessary, part of life, isn't it, and everyone does it? Three years ago, I left a relationship which, looking back on it, wasn't healthy for me, anyway, but it started to get physically and verbally abusive, and he had to get the hell out! The physical, a shaking and a couple hard shoves, was enough for me to get the point and refuse to let it get any further than that. It's also taken me a long time to realize that not everyone who expresses anger by yelling is going to physically attack someone, especially if it's a couple and the guy's the more pissed off. The guy I'm with wouldn't even touch me unless I seriously attacked him, which, as far as I'm concerned, is purely self-defensive. I wouldn't think much of a guy who would literally let me beat on him just because I felt like it. But, since we haven't even had a major verbal disagreement and we both hate serious conflict, there's absolutely nothing to worry about. I'd also like to think that he would physically defend me if it were necessary. As far as defending myself or someone else, I'd like to think I'd do whatever I felt was necessary to achieve either one and I've gotten over that fact that I'd be physically hurting someone else. I figure, if you don't want to get hit back, don't hit someone else first. Has anyone else wanted to take some sort of self-defense but been afraid that they'd actually hurt the instructor or another student?

 

[Lucifer]

WHen I was a kid in particular I used to have very violent day dreams.

If anyone else were to find out some of the thoughts I had when I was younger they would probably have me committed. Especially as a teenager LOL

And I can be a scary mother fucker when I lose my temper. But it doesn't happen very often normally I am slow to rage.

 

[Orion]

Has anyone else wanted to take some sort of self-defense but been afraid that they'd actually hurt the instructor or another student?

That is a VERY common method of procrastination in regards to taking up some form of Self protection. You won't- not a the beginning at least. Even if you do it won't be serious. Getting hurt or feeling pain/discomfort is an essential part of learning in that context.

 

[Orion]

WHen I was a kid in particular I used to have very violent day dreams.

Me too! I used to daydream about shooting the class when I was about 11. Mainly aimed towards the people who bullied me. I'm not sure how that would be viewed or acted upon from psychological/psychiatric point of view, all I know is that, I'm not a serial killer, so it must be a natural thing. I need to do more research in this stuff! This thread has re-sparked my interest!