[INFJ] infjs confuse the hell out of me!

[hauteur]

1) does that mean you infjs have no emotion internaly?

I do feel emotion internally. Personally, I believe we all do, even those of us who have demon feeling. We are all thinkers and feelers: we just do it differently. Still, I don't know that I live there. It's hard to explain. I totally relate to what many others have said. I can come across as somewhat cold, but I've been often told that I shouldn't play poker. I advertise what I'm feeling whether I want to or not. On the other hand, I can be quite quiet and reserved, particularly if I'm around people I don't know, don't like that much, or don't have a lot in common with. Get me in a setting where those things aren't true, and I can easily be mistaken for an extravert.

Like others said, it can be hard for me to understand what I'm feeling sometimes. I have to process it to really get a handle on it. If someone pisses me off, however, I usually know what's up right away - including the underlying feeling. I'm not sure why that it, though.

Anyway, I think that "feeling internally" really just means introverted feeling versus extraverted feeling. That doesn't really have so much to do with whether or not we feel, just where it's directed: at others or at ourselves. If you ever watch Dave Superpowers on YouTube, I don't agree with everything he says, but he does a decent job of explaining it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GX-2EZnUCII

2) do you ever cry for sad movies? or songs or art etc?

Movies slay me. Songs and art, not so much. Movies. Holy tissues, Batman. Usually, it's movies with a specific theme that I can really relate to or movies where the person's emotion is such that I feel it strongly The Shack, Field of Dreams, Frequency, I Can Only Imagine. Yeah, father-son (but not just) movies absolutely destroy me. I can't help it.

 

[Daustus]

Movies slay me. Songs and art, not so much. Movies. Holy tissues, Batman. Usually, it's movies with a specific theme that I can really relate to or movies where the person's emotion is such that I feel it strongly The Shack, Field of Dreams, Frequency, I Can Only Imagine. Yeah, father-son (but not just) movies absolutely destroy me. I can't help it.

Father-son movies are a weakness of mine too. Pretty much guaranteed to cry. I haven't thought about Frequency in years! I forgot how much I enjoyed that movie.

 

[John K]

ok here is my main problem with understanding infjs
its the fe-ti axis which is supposed to be warm on the outside but cold on the inside.

so 1) does that mean you infjs have no emotion internaly?
2) do you ever cry for sad movies? or songs or art ect?

please answer the questions honestly, and not what makes a good answer, but how as an infj you experience theres things?

It's appropriate that the responses so far have been focused on emotion because that's at the heart of your question. Could I just check that this is not leading you to confuse the Feeling functions with emotion - Jung has a bit to answer for by laying open this risk because of how he named the functions. I make a very big distinction in myself between how I feel emotionally and how I use feeling judgement to make decisions or to crystallise out my opinions. The feeling functions are as rational as the logical functions in their own way.

The only thing I'd add to everyone else as far as the emotions are concerned is that I'm pretty well aware of my emotions when I'm on my own, but in company I respond far more sensitively to other people's emotions than to my own and they almost completely drown my own out. Sometimes my feelings are overwhelming, at both ends of the spectrum from joy to sadness and hopelessness - though not often at the extreme ends thank goodness lol.

My judging functions are another thing entirely - I don't have any real problem using Fe to decide something and that's as it should be with a secondary function. These judgements definitely rely on emotional input, from inside and outside, and personally I find it's usually in good control because the judging process gives sharp focus. I'm very sensitive to how people respond to my Fe, and experience this as an emotional perception, often before I access the logic of their response.

I notice that if I'm getting overwhelmed and confused by loud social / emotional noise around me, it's my Fe that will help me to get at the volume control.

I'm pretty good with Ti judgement, but can get into overthink. I do have to watch I don't let my Ti loose without some control though because it does try to jump in and bypass my Ni and Fe, which is not always a good thing because it doesn't necessarily have control of the consequences . Fi is an interesting one, because it's a judging function based on inner values. There are INTJs in the forum who show very strong use of Fi and I certainly share some the values-based judgement processes that they use. Those of us who are members of a formalised religion, or were brought up in one, probably have a reasonable idea of what such values feel like internally if they reflect on it a bit, because these religions put across their values to us very strongly from the time we are small children. I have a pretty sophisticated feeling for my inner state based on the values that I accept, and where I feel myself to be along my personal spiritual journey. What I can't tell is whether this would be so if I hadn't been brought up in such a values rich environment - it may that this is akin to a right handed person who becomes able to use their left hand too through practice and training … to play a musical instrument, or drive a car for example.

 

[dragulagu]

This thread so far is confusing yet intriguing at the same time, the Fe / Ti combination is pretty fascinating.

 

[Daustus]

@John K another wonderful post. I truly enjoy reading your responses on things. The analogy my brain is crafting is that I'm learning from a Master Jedi and I feel like a self taught Padawan. Sorry for those of you that don't speak Star Wars

I'm pretty well aware of my emotions when I'm on my own, but in company I respond far more sensitively to other people's emotions than to my own and they almost completely drown my own out. Sometimes my feelings are overwhelming, at both ends of the spectrum from joy to sadness and hopelessness - though not often at the extreme ends thank goodness lol.

I relate to this heavily and this is super accurate for me. I recently celebrated a birthday and had a 6 person dinner party. I was more in tune with other people's emotions, keeping the conversation alive and making them laugh. I had this sobering moment 3 hours into the dinner where I actually recognized that I was super happy and glad to be surrounded by loved ones. I didn't recognize feeling the emotion of happiness until that moment but likely it started a few hours prior. I got quiet and self reflective and zoned out of the conversation for a few minutes and my expression changed. My friend who noticed my inward retreat asked what I was thinking about, and I told everyone that I was very happy, it was good to see everyone, I missed them all, and that I loved each and everyone of them. It was one of the meta moments that I realized that I was going to remember.

 

[Jonah Caan]

@John K another wonderful post. I truly enjoy reading your responses on things. The analogy my brain is crafting is that I'm learning from a Master Jedi and I feel like a self taught Padawan. Sorry for those of you that don't speak Star Wars



I relate to this heavily and this is super accurate for me. I recently celebrated a birthday and had a 6 person dinner party. I was more in tune with other people's emotions, keeping the conversation alive and making them laugh. I had this sobering moment 3 hours into the dinner where I actually recognized that I was super happy and glad to be surrounded by loved ones. I didn't recognize feeling the emotion of happiness until that moment but likely it started a few hours prior. I got quiet and self reflective and zoned out of the conversation for a few minutes and my expression changed. My friend who noticed my inward retreat asked what I was thinking about, and I told everyone that I was very happy, it was good to see everyone, I missed them all, and that I loved each and everyone of them. It was one of the meta moments that I realized that I was going to remember.

That's beautiful to read man; what a beautiful feeling that is.

 

[John K]

@John K another wonderful post. I truly enjoy reading your responses on things. The analogy my brain is crafting is that I'm learning from a Master Jedi and I feel like a self taught Padawan. Sorry for those of you that don't speak Star Wars



I relate to this heavily and this is super accurate for me. I recently celebrated a birthday and had a 6 person dinner party. I was more in tune with other people's emotions, keeping the conversation alive and making them laugh. I had this sobering moment 3 hours into the dinner where I actually recognized that I was super happy and glad to be surrounded by loved ones. I didn't recognize feeling the emotion of happiness until that moment but likely it started a few hours prior. I got quiet and self reflective and zoned out of the conversation for a few minutes and my expression changed. My friend who noticed my inward retreat asked what I was thinking about, and I told everyone that I was very happy, it was good to see everyone, I missed them all, and that I loved each and everyone of them. It was one of the meta moments that I realized that I was going to remember.

That's beautiful to read man; what a beautiful feeling that is.

Gosh thank you for your kind words Daustus . I must say I don't feel like a Master Jedi, just another guy exploring the roads of life lol. It seems to be a fact that we only really grasp some things when we experience them and reflect on that experience. I think this wonderful dinner party that you described here is one of those events - I agree wholeheartedly with Jonah. You are well on the way to mastery yourself I suspect.

 

[hauteur]

Well said, @John K.

This is definitely one of the most confusing aspects of MBTI for me. There are so many conflicting opinions out there. So many of them have to do with the depth of emotion or emotional expressiveness, which doesn't really line up with what either Jung or Katherine Briggs wrote. But they didn't even necessarily agree on several things (Jung didn't believe his observations should be used to classify people). Even though Katherine Briggs was clear to distinguish feeling as what we value (versus a rational choice), the test she devised totally drew a distinction based on emotion versus logic.

Then, Keirsey tried to push the emotional aspect even more by generalizing the sixteen types into four (although I could be wrong - it's been years since I've read his book).

And then there is The Google. Fi feels very deeply but is not expressive. Fe is super-bubbly-happy. Fi is worried about their own feelings. Fe is focused on everyone else's. Fi focuses on internal values. Fe is concerned with what everyone else thinks. So on and so forth. Then there are people like Dave Superpowers who talks about "that Myers-Briggs shit that gets it all wrong" and tries to blow 16 types out into 500+ types or whatever it is.

It's no wonder the psychological community is so quick to dismiss it. The only thing that seems to be truly observable is that we generally have an affinity for how we answer the test questions. But only on Tuesday. On Wednesday we'll answer it differently.

Edit...

Sorry - didn't mean to go off the rails. I typed this like six times, but I kept tripping over all the conflicting ideas in my head and starting over...

 

[John K]

Well said, @John K.

This is definitely one of the most confusing aspects of MBTI for me. There are so many conflicting opinions out there. So many of them have to do with the depth of emotion or emotional expressiveness, which doesn't really line up with what either Jung or Katherine Briggs wrote. But they didn't even necessarily agree on several things (Jung didn't believe his observations should be used to classify people). Even though Katherine Briggs was clear to distinguish feeling as what we value (versus a rational choice), the test she devised totally drew a distinction based on emotion versus logic.

Then, Keirsey tried to push the emotional aspect even more by generalizing the sixteen types into four (although I could be wrong - it's been years since I've read his book).

And then there is The Google. Fi feels very deeply but is not expressive. Fe is super-bubbly-happy. Fi is worried about their own feelings. Fe is focused on everyone else's. Fi focuses on internal values. Fe is concerned with what everyone else thinks. So on and so forth. Then there are people like Dave Superpowers who talks about "that Myers-Briggs shit that gets it all wrong" and tries to blow 16 types out into 500+ types or whatever it is.

It's no wonder the psychological community is so quick to dismiss it. The only thing that seems to be truly observable is that we generally have an affinity for how we answer the test questions. But only on Tuesday. On Wednesday we'll answer it differently.

Edit...

Sorry - didn't mean to go off the rails. I typed this like six times, but I kept tripping over all the conflicting ideas in my head and starting over...

I know exactly what you mean - I think that the public face of the F Functions on the web is quite misleading and often sucks. I'm sure that it has led to a lot of people mistyping. We don't have to look far to find familiar examples, though these are at the more spectacular end of the spectrum: it's the function prized in many war films, and honoured to bits in real life, where someone puts their own life at serious risk rescuing a wounded comrade; it's the brother who gives a kidney to a gravely sick sister; it's the parents who sacrifice their time and resources to give their kids a good start in life, then take care of their grandchildren so their mum and dad can both work knowing the kids are safe and loved. These are all grounded on F based judgements that lead to the resulting attitudes and/or actions.

 

[Deleted member 16771]

So on and so forth

Say that and forever be read in the voice of Zizek
View attachment 52161

 

[Impact Character]

I never read anyone talking about this, so I dare to throw this in here...

If you think about all the type-variety of perception and judging (for example as in ways of reading) these type descriptions, how can it be a wonder it doesn't work? I suppose those descriptions actually would need like 16 versions for each description according/accomodating to each type. And then actually from there people would type themselves automatically without getting lost in the likings of wording. (I'm not going into ego-caressing to feel good and not wanting to be like their parents and this kind of stuff that can as well have influence on typing onself.)

Anyhow.. example: from the perspective of other types leading with Fi how can INFJ thoughts about all the sides of the topic at hand sometimes not seem "cold" (detached)? The person extroverting is not taking the self/own values as an anchor to look at it. Know what I mean?

All descriptions in the web are all based on the author's/someone's way of perceiving in the end. Sometimes you can go search for a wording that suits you and your "type pick" best, turning it into a self-fulfilling prophecy.

That's writing for audience 101.

Also:

and often sucks.

 

[Sandie33]

Sometimes you can go search for a wording that suits you and your "type pick" best, turning it into a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Yep. This is a fair reasoning and a good example of ego in action. Self-proclimations of "I'm xxxx type but want xxxx type because it's soooo popular right now."
* true story...I went to a gathering and met the same person with the proclimation of being a different type on each occassion. His interactions the second time proved to me he was mistaken both times. LOL when I called him out he asked how I had remembered the first type given of ESTP, I laughed and said I'm an INFJ and wandered away. I assumed if he knew anything about MBTi he would have caught my humor. He didn't.

 

[Impact Character]

I laughed and said I'm an INFJ and wandered away. I assumed if he knew anything about MBTi he would have caught my humor. He didn't.

Awww! Well, you know..

 

[John K]

Also:

 

[Impact Character]

 

[John K]

 

[mintoots]

ok here is my main problem with understanding infjs
its the fe-ti axis which is supposed to be warm on the outside but cold on the inside.

so 1) does that mean you infjs have no emotion internaly?
2) do you ever cry for sad movies? or songs or art ect?

please answer the questions honestly, and not what makes a good answer, but how as an infj you experience theres things?

1) That song by OMAM sums this up for me: "i move slow and steady but I feel like a waterfall." On the outside, I am always collected. I never say things i don't thoroughly think through. Sometimes my explanations when extraverting can get quite lengthy and wordy, almost circumambulating, when asked a question I want to answer but was asked quite on the spot. More often than not, especially in very emotional issues, i have already evaluated and re evaluated my point of view that by the time we talk, i am direct to the point, frank, and seemingly unemotional. Make no mistake to assume I don't feel anything however because preceding such moments, you or the thought in general has been obsessed over and over so much that it manifests in my dreams. What you see will never be what you get with me, unless I allow it.

I process technical information the same way I process my emotions. I always look for real life applications. I strictly adhere to facts. I always review all options and all potential consequences of each fact. Context is everything. If a technical information that I learn isn't interpreted such that I can see its broader or deeper impact, i will lose interest. If it's interesting enough, I will obsess over it. I will validate and cross check multiple sources, arguments, angles. I will stay quiet until i'm sure of my interpretations.

This poses a problem for me because some people, especially people who are already within my circles think I don't care enough. I do but the fact that you're already in my inner circle means by now you probably already know that I can have a very cold, somewhat apathetic, slightly evil side which I no longer hesitate to show with you because I know you accept me and love me regardless. I can get pretty clingy and needy with those in my inner circles, especially when my emotions are intensifying. When i'm beginning to look like a mess to you, that means I love you dearly enough to trust my true, spaced out,absent minded self with you. That also means i'm outwardly processing with you. I trust you with my life. If I shut you off, that only means you hurt me or you make me incredibly angry. Or both. If I don't care enough for you, I will always be warm to you. I am always nice to everybody. I don't care if you hurt me or abuse me because I don't care for you. But don't make the mistake of showing you're good for nothing and abusive of others, and especially people I care about or I will burn your soul. I will hurt you and I don't care if my soul burns alongside yours. I will not only intellectually torment you but I will make sure your deepest emotional fears will haunt you but you will never know it was me that's deliberately causing it nor will you know what hit you.

But if you're decent enough and you prove yourself remorseful, I will get off your back and probably help you heal if I like you enough or if i think you're worth it. I can be very selfless and martyr if I think you deserve it.


2) I cry for movies and art but only that which I personally relate to. For example, Grave of the Fireflies is a pretty sad movie as well as The Boy in Striped Pajamas, but I don't cry. Sometimes if it's good enough, it will set me off to an activist tirade. I fight for my values and I don't back down. I always load up my intellectual arsenal. Again, I will use your emotions to win my war. Not my battles. My war.

When a movie hits the notes for me, no matter how tacky it is, I will bawl my eyes out so badly that I'd need sunglasses for when I get out of the cinema. Under the Tuscan Sun and Cooper's A Star is Born for example are okay movies but because it's personal to me, i always end up wailing.

 

[dragulagu]

1) That song by OMAM sums this up for me: "i move slow and steady but I feel like a waterfall." On the outside, I am always collected. I never say things i don't thoroughly think through. Sometimes my explanations when extraverting can get quite lengthy and wordy, almost circumambulating, when asked a question I want to answer but was asked quite on the spot. More often than not, especially in very emotional issues, i have already evaluated and re evaluated my point of view that by the time we talk, i am direct to the point, frank, and seemingly unemotional. Make no mistake to assume I don't feel anything however because preceding such moments, you or the thought in general has been obsessed over and over so much that it manifests in my dreams. What you see will never be what you get with me, unless I allow it.

I process technical information the same way I process my emotions. I always look for real life applications. I strictly adhere to facts. I always review all options and all potential consequences of each fact. Context is everything. If a technical information that I learn isn't interpreted such that I can see its broader or deeper impact, i will lose interest. If it's interesting enough, I will obsess over it. I will validate and cross check multiple sources, arguments, angles. I will stay quiet until i'm sure of my interpretations.

This poses a problem for me because some people, especially people who are already within my circles think I don't care enough. I do but the fact that you're already in my inner circle means by now you probably already know that I can have a very cold, somewhat apathetic, slightly evil side which I no longer hesitate to show with you because I know you accept me and love me regardless. I can get pretty clingy and needy with those in my inner circles, especially when my emotions are intensifying. When i'm beginning to look like a mess to you, that means I love you dearly enough to trust my true, spaced out,absent minded self with you. That also means i'm outwardly processing with you. I trust you with my life. If I shut you off, that only means you hurt me or you make me incredibly angry. Or both. If I don't care enough for you, I will always be warm to you. I am always nice to everybody. I don't care if you hurt me or abuse me because I don't care for you. But don't make the mistake of showing you're good for nothing and abusive of others, and especially people I care about or I will burn your soul. I will hurt you and I don't care if my soul burns alongside yours. I will not only intellectually torment you but I will make sure your deepest emotional fears will haunt you but you will never know it was me that's deliberately causing it nor will you know what hit you.

But if you're decent enough and you prove yourself remorseful, I will get off your back and probably help you heal if I like you enough or if i think you're worth it. I can be very selfless and martyr if I think you deserve it.


2) I cry for movies and art but only that which I personally relate to. For example, Grave of the Fireflies is a pretty sad movie as well as The Boy in Striped Pajamas, but I don't cry. Sometimes if it's good enough, it will set me off to an activist tirade. I fight for my values and I don't back down. I always load up my intellectual arsenal. Again, I will use your emotions to win my war. Not my battles. My war.

When a movie hits the notes for me, no matter how tacky it is, I will bawl my eyes out so badly that I'd need sunglasses for when I get out of the cinema. Under the Tuscan Sun and Cooper's A Star is Born for example are okay movies but because it's personal to me, i always end up wailing.

Ok, it's a very interesting summation. But this makes it very very paradoxically to me in regards to how you/INFJ's work. And honestly, it's scares me when I see INFJ's (and by that I mean the INFJ's i know IRL) just switch off emotions as if it is an on/off switch you can just flip when you are in/with a specific group / conversation / person. It's as if i'm getting zero readings in that situation, which just confuses me personally in regards to how to react to this situation. Personally, I just start to get worried but as I've read it here and several times around it's something "you" just do. Again, this gives a very confusing interpretation...

And the whole take-down-whoever is harming other thing, I understand this perspective. It is a noble pursuit in pushing someone to do the right thing. But bringing them down that explicitly or pushing them to take the correct path worries me. Especially when you're going to fight someone which has a serious mental disorder (narcissism being the popular one, psychopathy being the worst). That's where I'll be very honest on, you are not mentally equipped to handle these kind of situations. So please don't.

The crying on movies part is +1 from me, it's awesome . And again, adoring the nobleness that is <<you>>.

 

[MoonFlier]

Ok, it's a very interesting summation. But this makes it very very paradoxically to me in regards to how you/INFJ's work. And honestly, it's scares me when I see INFJ's (and by that I mean the INFJ's i know IRL) just switch off emotions as if it is an on/off switch you can just flip when you are in/with a specific group / conversation / person. It's as if i'm getting zero readings in that situation, which just confuses me personally in regards to how to react to this situation. Personally, I just start to get worried but as I've read it here and several times around it's something "you" just do. Again, this gives a very confusing interpretation...

And the whole take-down-whoever is harming other thing, I understand this perspective. It is a noble pursuit in pushing someone to do the right thing. But bringing them down that explicitly or pushing them to take the correct path worries me. Especially when you're going to fight someone which has a serious mental disorder (narcissism being the popular one, psychopathy being the worst). That's where I'll be very honest on, you are not mentally equipped to handle these kind of situations. So please don't.

The crying on movies part is +1 from me, it's awesome . And again, adoring the nobleness that is <<you>>.

I still can't speak to the emotional part - I'm a warm fluffy kitten inside, but I learned to toss that wall up when I'm with others and to just think as an analyst or computer, not to react until I'm alone. Many times I won't even know I have emotions over a situation until later.

Re: taking down psychopathic narcissists. Been there, done that. In fact I married one. There are ways to get through to these people, but you need leverage and they need a spark of a soul. You also have to be willing to give up any resemblance to having a normal life while involved with them. Make no mistake, they require full time babysitting.

 

[mintoots]

I still can't speak to the emotional part - I'm a warm fluffy kitten inside, but I learned to toss that wall up when I'm with others and to just think as an analyst or computer, not to react until I'm alone. Many times I won't even know I have emotions over a situation until later.

Re: taking down psychopathic narcissists. Been there, done that. In fact I married one. There are ways to get through to these people, but you need leverage and they need a spark of a soul. You also have to be willing to give up an resemblance to having a normal life while involved with them. make no mistake, they require full time babysitting.

@dragulagu @MoonFlier about taking down narcs, that's accurate. It takes a certain kind of dedication that is almost close to martyrdom if you will. Full time babysitting is accurate and yes it can get really messy when the issues are psychologically clinical. I know from experience with a narc. It ended badly. A complete and unforgiving door slam happened. There were a lot of public breakdowns and you have to stand there public, solid, just wearing them down. When the doors close however, you crack. I went into a severe episode of depression after that phase but it's all good. There's nothing a door slam can't solve. Also when the tears are gone, time passes, an amicable understanding can be arrived at. Though there's really nothing one can do about their issues but I consider it worth the combat since in the end it resulted to medical consultations (both for the narc and my superman tendencies), appropriate diagnoses, and eventually a stable and distant gravity against each other.

Also it doesn't really happen with every soul I make a connection with. Usually, I only take offense when I see the issue impact most of my life and majority of the lives of the people around me. Most of the time I fully recognize a narc and i just don't care. I recognize these evils even at the first instant of meeting them and establish my markings and my gravity therefrom. There is only one that turned me into a moth attracted to a flame and the other was a professional cicumstance that I just had to deal with. In general, I almost never engage. I just watch them from a distance and slightly amazed at their odd selves. It takes a lot to get me truly angry and it takes a lot to get me to truly care.