[INFJ] infjs,intjs and ego death

[Milktoast Bandit]

What is the difference between a spiritual / mystical experience and a psychological disturbance?

Differential diagnosis between spiritual experiences and mental disorders of religious content

http://www.scielo.br/scielo.php?pid=S0101-60832009000200006&script=sci_arttext&tlng=en

Copy/paste from the paper in the above link

"Historically, since the middle of the 19th century, psychiatry has often despised, and even considered religious and spiritual manifestations pathological. Freud1 considered religion an obsessive neurosis. The mystical experience has also seen as a psychotic episode2 and as borderline psychosis3. The Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders III makes 12 references to religion, all of them associated to psychopathology4.

Other authors, however, presented different opinions. Jung5saw in the mystical experience, the manifestation of a psychologically healthy experience. Maslow6 considered the "culminating experiences" the maximum expression of psychological health and well-being. Hood7 and Caird8ascertained that individuals that reported having had mystical experiences scored higher in terms of psychological well-being scales and lower on psychopathological scales than those of the control group."

Well there's a whole bunch of stuff from that one paper alone. Rather than post it all, it's probably best to just check the link if you're interested.

 

[TheFool]

Differential diagnosis between spiritual experiences and mental disorders of religious content

http://www.scielo.br/scielo.php?pid=S0101-60832009000200006&script=sci_arttext&tlng=en

Copy/paste from the paper in the above link

"Historically, since the middle of the 19th century, psychiatry has often despised, and even considered religious and spiritual manifestations pathological. Freud1 considered religion an obsessive neurosis. The mystical experience has also seen as a psychotic episode2 and as borderline psychosis3. The Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders III makes 12 references to religion, all of them associated to psychopathology4.

Other authors, however, presented different opinions. Jung5saw in the mystical experience, the manifestation of a psychologically healthy experience. Maslow6 considered the "culminating experiences" the maximum expression of psychological health and well-being. Hood7 and Caird8ascertained that individuals that reported having had mystical experiences scored higher in terms of psychological well-being scales and lower on psychopathological scales than those of the control group."

Well there's a whole bunch of stuff from that one paper alone. Rather than post it all, it's probably best to just check the link if you're interested.

Just asking your view on the matter.

People have been tripping their balls off and shitting on themselves since the early times. But every tribe used to have that one babysitter guy / girl who went totally nuts but somehow managed to function as a tribe member. Despite being nutty and sometimes shitty, people trusted their guidance and had faith in their visions which seemed to have something mystical and yet truthful in them.

 

[Milktoast Bandit]

Just asking your view on the matter.

People have been tripping their balls off and shitting on themselves since the early times. But every tribe used to have that one babysitter guy / girl who went totally nuts but somehow managed to function as a tribe member. Despite being nutty and sometimes shitty, people trusted their guidance and had faith in their visions which seemed to have something mystical and yet truthful in them.

I agree. My point is only that there is a difference, however subtle, between a healthy shedding of ego and an unhealthy "it's ok to poop on your stuff" experience.

 

[TheFool]

Some people get lost and that is why shepherds / psychopomp are recommended. However that is not a guarantee that you will willingly or unwillingly poop on yourself because of sheer amazement. The point is whether you clean yourself up afterwards or not.

 

[Wyote]

The point is whether you clean up yourself afterwards or not.

Spoiler: Clean up on aisle seven

 

[Milktoast Bandit]

Some people get lost and that is why shepherds / psychopomp are recommended. However that is not a guarantee that you will willingly or unwillingly poop on yourself because of sheer amazement. The point is whether you clean yourself up afterwards or not.

You can do whatever you want with your poops. Matters not to me.

 

[JennyDaniella]

You can do whatever you want with your poops. Matters not to me.

 

[John K]

i read somewere that ni doms are very capable of seeing through the ego because ni is so subconsious.but my question to you infjs and intjs,how do you see the ego,in the spiritual sense,?,most eastern philosophies say that the ego is an illusion and the goal is to drop it or to see through it,as infjs and intjs whats your view on this and the ego?

It's almost impossible to talk successfully about this because the words mean different things to different people and we can all end up seeming to be round the same table when we are really in separate universes conceptually. When I use the word 'ego' I'm primarily referring to what Jung defined and is placed into his model of the psyche in this diagram:

Over and again, people confuse models with the real thing - this happens a lot in the physical sciences. The diagram only has boundaries in order to provide some conceptual structure and vocabulary, and these are simplifications and a non-unique perspective on a much more complex reality - I expect that this is true no matter how we conceptualise the 'ego'. I'm not even sure that it exists as something with a real-world individuated boundary that is perhaps only imposed by the very act of naming it.

In terms of this diagram, to supress or destroy the ego is to remove the individual's connection between their inner and outer world - this is an experience that shouldn't be sought lightly.

It's an interesting reflection that in discussing the ego we risk reinforcing, even inflating our egos to make our points, even when we are trying to let go of them - oh yes, I include myself in that

In spiritual terms, my feeling is that we do great violence to ourselves in the long run by misplacing the role of our I-ness in our world view (by that I mean both inner and outer worlds). There are those of us who naturally grip too hard consciously on ourselves and need to let go - to let their I-ness see itself as a partner in the game of inner life, not a dictator. I am one of these, and I find that the great mystical journeys described by the saints, the mindfulness methods that originated in Eastern spirituality, and Jung's own idea of individuation are profound inspirations that help me over and again to let go. This isn't an intellectual exercise, and the words are only needed when I try and do this here - talk about it to others. Mostly it's an inner vision of the path to follow and a profound feeling of rightness about that path - and a profound sense that my inner world is as much separate from me as the outer world is. I suck at actually following that path, but that's another matter entirely lol.

I don't think taking energy away from the ego is for everyone at a given point in time. As a crude analogy, let's suppose that my ego is a large boat and I'm travelling in it to a distant place. Now speaking for myself, that boat is located in the middle of the Sahara Desert, and I'll not move anywhere unless I get out of it and find some other way to travel. But supposing that the boat is in the middle of the Atlantic Ocean - then it's exactly what I would need if I found myself swimming in the water 1500 miles from land without any help. There are many people whose egos are weak and undeveloped, and need to be greatly strengthened before they can move on. To try and weaken their ego grip would probably be very harmful for those people - it needs to be strengthened instead and sailed to land before they try and get out of it. For most of us, walking on the water isn't an option

 

[Skarekrow]

It's almost impossible to talk successfully about this because the words mean different things to different people and we can all end up seeming to be round the same table when we are really in separate universes conceptually. When I use the word 'ego' I'm primarily referring to what Jung defined and is placed into his model of the psyche in this diagram:

Over and again, people confuse models with the real thing - this happens a lot in the physical sciences. The diagram only has boundaries in order to provide some conceptual structure and vocabulary, and these are simplifications and a non-unique perspective on a much more complex reality - I expect that this is true no matter how we conceptualise the 'ego'. I'm not even sure that it exists as something with a real-world individuated boundary that is perhaps only imposed by the very act of naming it.

In terms of this diagram, to supress or destroy the ego is to remove the individual's connection between their inner and outer world - this is an experience that shouldn't be sought lightly.

It's an interesting reflection that in discussing the ego we risk reinforcing, even inflating our egos to make our points, even when we are trying to let go of them - oh yes, I include myself in that

In spiritual terms, my feeling is that we do great violence to ourselves in the long run by misplacing the role of our I-ness in our world view (by that I mean both inner and outer worlds). There are those of us who naturally grip too hard consciously on ourselves and need to let go - to let their I-ness see itself as a partner in the game of inner life, not a dictator. I am one of these, and I find that the great mystical journeys described by the saints, the mindfulness methods that originated in Eastern spirituality, and Jung's own idea of individuation are profound inspirations that help me over and again to let go. This isn't an intellectual exercise, and the words are only needed when I try and do this here - talk about it to others. Mostly it's an inner vision of the path to follow and a profound feeling of rightness about that path - and a profound sense that my inner world is as much separate from me as the outer world is. I suck at actually following that path, but that's another matter entirely lol.

I don't think taking energy away from the ego is for everyone at a given point in time. As a crude analogy, let's suppose that my ego is a large boat and I'm travelling in it to a distant place. Now speaking for myself, that boat is located in the middle of the Sahara Desert, and I'll not move anywhere unless I get out of it and find some other way to travel. But supposing that the boat is in the middle of the Atlantic Ocean - then it's exactly what I would need if I found myself swimming in the water 1500 miles from land without any help. There are many people whose egos are weak and undeveloped, and need to be greatly strengthened before they can move on. To try and weaken their ego grip would probably be very harmful for those people - it needs to be strengthened instead and sailed to land before they try and get out of it. For most of us, walking on the water isn't an option

As usual, a beautifully written and smartly poetic post John!
I love all you have given me to ponder, thank you!

I would like to also contribute by what is meant by an “ego death” in the context of meditation and/or entheogens as you are discussing the differences in terminology or definitions since you brought this up.
In it’s most simple terms it’s the blurring of the boundary between you and some part of reality...but it can also be a blurring of the separation you feel from God (as an example), this can be a positive path as well as a negative one depending on how one applies their intentions and what kind of mind-state they are in to begin with.
While falling into a “void” may not immediately be experienced as something you wish to stay in, often times it is the most difficult revelations that are of the greatest benefit upon deconstruction.
For the “Psychonaut” the term “ego death" is the “oneness” that a person feels while in that state of mind...more accurately would be ego dissolution...the feeling of connection to all...the melding of the self into everything around you...until you are it...it is you...and there is still a you...but you don’t identify at that moment with the ego-self we are in 99% of the time.
This doesn’t necessarily have to be induced by entheogenic substances either...many reach this state via holotropic breathwork....deep meditative states...sleep deprivation...spontaneous/induced out of body experiences.
It doesn’t have to be a full on NO ego/ego death...it can be a small perspective shift from one just learning how to personally quiet the ego a bit....all the way to a full blown - there is no I...you just are existing as the universe so it seems...or you are psychically somewhere else entirely from the physical self so it seems.
Often such out of body experiences and NDEs will profoundly shift a person’s perspective for their lifetime (in most cases, more so with NDEs - nearly 100%), and show diminished ego-self identification - as they have seen first hand, they are not this body, they are not this mind...even though there was some semblance of an inner true “self” that remained after the ego seems to have been stripped away with the physical body.
But this is far into the realm of some impossible questions, lol.

There are also those who are very much unprepared for any kind of ego-dissolving experience...the immature, kids still figuring out who they are as teenagers probably should not seek this out imho.
There are always those who are not psychologically fit for such a thing...especially if induced by certain substances.
I absolutely do not endorse this for everyone, and those considering it should do their homework and check it twice.

Spoiler: Someone who was not emotionally/psychologically prepared.

"Sean, 22, from Oregon tells me that, after his ego death, it was like there was a "frequency shift" inside him. "I honestly thought I was developing psychosis," he says. "I couldn't believe what I saw, and what the world was. Nothing made sense, and nothing had a point. I became very anti-social and it didn't take much to send me into a panic."

Tony developed even stronger symptoms, saying that just existing in his body became so taxing that one night he literally got sick. "I had to look at myself in the mirror for a long time so I'd know what my face looks like," he explains. "I had to tell myself my name over and over again until I started to develop a sense of identity. I saw how temporary this world is and I struggled to find a reason to live."

Spiritual awakenings can be ugly, explains Michael: "The truth can leave you miserable. You lose interest in things, people drift away, you question your career. It's been years since [my ego death] happened—I still think about it daily. I wasn't ready for the experience. I was left in a state of manic insanity—I kept thinking the trip wasn't over."

Fortunately for some, normal life eventually reintegrates, leaving them happier for having gone through it. For others, the catch-22 of having seen a utopia they can't live in permeates everything, breeding a nihilism which asks whether living the lie (like the rest of us) would have been better."

If approached properly, there can be huge benefits “I" strongly believe having been helped my”self”, lol.
Even just trying to maintain a sense of connection to the things and plants/animals/people around you can change your perspective and help quiet down the ego.

Hope you are your own are all doing fantastic!?
Much love!

 

[John K]

As usual, a beautifully written and smartly poetic post John!
I love all you have given me to ponder, thank you!

I would like to also contribute by what is meant by an “ego death” in the context of meditation and/or entheogens as you are discussing the differences in terminology or definitions since you brought this up.
In it’s most simple terms it’s the blurring of the boundary between you and some part of reality...but it can also be a blurring of the separation you feel from God (as an example), this can be a positive path as well as a negative one depending on how one applies their intentions and what kind of mind-state they are in to begin with.
While falling into a “void” may not immediately be experienced as something you wish to stay in, often times it is the most difficult revelations that are of the greatest benefit upon deconstruction.
For the “Psychonaut” the term “ego death" is the “oneness” that a person feels while in that state of mind...more accurately would be ego dissolution...the feeling of connection to all...the melding of the self into everything around you...until you are it...it is you...and there is still a you...but you don’t identify at that moment with the ego-self we are in 99% of the time.
This doesn’t necessarily have to be induced by entheogenic substances either...many reach this state via holotropic breathwork....deep meditative states...sleep deprivation...spontaneous/induced out of body experiences.
It doesn’t have to be a full on NO ego/ego death...it can be a small perspective shift from one just learning how to personally quiet the ego a bit....all the way to a full blown - there is no I...you just are existing as the universe so it seems...or you are psychically somewhere else entirely from the physical self so it seems.
Often such out of body experiences and NDEs will profoundly shift a person’s perspective for their lifetime (in most cases, more so with NDEs - nearly 100%), and show diminished ego-self identification - as they have seen first hand, they are not this body, they are not this mind...even though there was some semblance of an inner true “self” that remained after the ego seems to have been stripped away with the physical body.
But this is far into the realm of some impossible questions, lol.

There are also those who are very much unprepared for any kind of ego-dissolving experience...the immature, kids still figuring out who they are as teenagers probably should not seek this out imho.
There are always those who are not psychologically fit for such a thing...especially if induced by certain substances.
I absolutely do not endorse this for everyone, and those considering it should do their homework and check it twice.

Spoiler: Someone who was not emotionally/psychologically prepared.

"Sean, 22, from Oregon tells me that, after his ego death, it was like there was a "frequency shift" inside him. "I honestly thought I was developing psychosis," he says. "I couldn't believe what I saw, and what the world was. Nothing made sense, and nothing had a point. I became very anti-social and it didn't take much to send me into a panic."

Tony developed even stronger symptoms, saying that just existing in his body became so taxing that one night he literally got sick. "I had to look at myself in the mirror for a long time so I'd know what my face looks like," he explains. "I had to tell myself my name over and over again until I started to develop a sense of identity. I saw how temporary this world is and I struggled to find a reason to live."

Spiritual awakenings can be ugly, explains Michael: "The truth can leave you miserable. You lose interest in things, people drift away, you question your career. It's been years since [my ego death] happened—I still think about it daily. I wasn't ready for the experience. I was left in a state of manic insanity—I kept thinking the trip wasn't over."

Fortunately for some, normal life eventually reintegrates, leaving them happier for having gone through it. For others, the catch-22 of having seen a utopia they can't live in permeates everything, breeding a nihilism which asks whether living the lie (like the rest of us) would have been better."

If approached properly, there can be huge benefits “I" strongly believe having been helped my”self”, lol.
Even just trying to maintain a sense of connection to the things and plants/animals/people around you can change your perspective and help quiet down the ego.

Hope you are your own are all doing fantastic!?
Much love!

That's a really great and poetic explanation of your own Skarekrow - thank you yet again for your clear insights. I think this is very helpful for anyone who may be using the word "ego" to mean something different.

BTW your descriptions are unmistakeable to anyone who has had any of these experiences.

I have always been taken by this passage from the Cloud of Unknowing, where the author is warning against the over-literal interpretation of words that have a different meaning in a spiritual context compared with their everyday meanings. He goes on in the later passages to paint a highly witty picture of people attempting to dive deep into their psyches without being properly prepared for it or understanding what they are doing - tragic for some because he's obviously seen people becoming mentally unstable as a result. It's written in the language of 14th Centrury mysticism, but I think it translates OK into modern deep meditation practice with just a little imagination to filter out the specialised religious context.

Spoiler: From: Chr 51 Cloud of Unknowing

I only have the original English version in quotable form but it's easy to understand. 'Ghostly' means spiritually for instance.

And be well wary that thou conceive not bodily that that is said ghostly. For truly I tell thee, that bodily and fleshly conceits of them that have curious and imaginative wits because of much error.

Ensample of this mayest thou see, by that that I bid thee hide thy desire from God in that that in thee is. For peradventure an I had bidden thee shew thy desire unto God, thou shouldest have conceived it more bodily than thou dost now, when I bid thee hide it. For thou wottest well, that all that thing that is wilfully hidden, it is cast into the deepness of spirit. And thus me thinketh that it needeth greatly to have much wariness in understanding of words that be spoken to ghostly intent, so that thou conceive them not bodily but ghostly, as they be meant: and specially it is good to be wary with this word in, and this word up. For in misconceiving of these two words hangeth much error, and much deceit in them that purpose them to be ghostly workers, as me thinketh. Somewhat wot I by the proof, and somewhat by hearsay; and of these deceits list me tell thee a little as me thinketh.

A young disciple in God’s school new turned from the world, the same weeneth that for a little time that he hath given him to penance and to prayer, taken by counsel in confession, that he be therefore able to take upon him ghostly working of the which he heareth men speak or read about him, or peradventure readeth himself. And therefore when they read or hear spoken of ghostly working—and specially of this word, “how a man shall draw all his wit within himself,” or “how he shall climb above himself”—as fast for blindness in soul, and for fleshliness and curiosity of natural wit, they misunderstand these words, and ween, because they find in them a natural covetyse to hid things, that they be therefore called to that work by grace. Insomuch, that if counsel will not accord that they shall work in this work, as soon they feel a manner of grumbling against their counsel, and think—yea and peradventure say to such other as they be—that they can find no man that can wit what they mean fully. And therefore as fast, for boldness and presumption of their curious wit, they leave meek prayer and penance over soon; and set them, they ween, to a full ghostly work within in their soul. The which work, an it be truly conceived, is neither bodily working nor ghostly working; and shortly to say, it is a working against nature, and the devil is the chief worker thereof. And it is the readiest way to death of body and of soul, for it is madness and no wisdom, and leadeth a man even to madness. And yet they ween not thus: for they purpose them in this work to think on nought but on God.

There's a difference of course between using simple everyday prepositions in a spiritual context, and the possible misunderstandings about what the ego may be.

We are both good at the moment and hoping to spend a bit of time on the coast soon - food for my camera

I hope you aren't suffering too much with your back pain - I do keep you in mind

Take care my friend

 

[Skarekrow]

That's a really great and poetic explanation of your own Skarekrow - thank you yet again for your clear insights. I think this is very helpful for anyone who may be using the word "ego" to mean something different.

BTW your descriptions are unmistakeable to anyone who has had any of these experiences.

I have always been taken by this passage from the Cloud of Unknowing, where the author is warning against the over-literal interpretation of words that have a different meaning in a spiritual context compared with their everyday meanings. He goes on in the later passages to paint a highly witty picture of people attempting to dive deep into their psyches without being properly prepared for it or understanding what they are doing - tragic for some because he's obviously seen people becoming mentally unstable as a result. It's written in the language of 14th Centrury mysticism, but I think it translates OK into modern deep meditation practice with just a little imagination to filter out the specialised religious context.

Spoiler: From: Chr 51 Cloud of Unknowing

I only have the original English version in quotable form but it's easy to understand. 'Ghostly' means spiritually for instance.

And be well wary that thou conceive not bodily that that is said ghostly. For truly I tell thee, that bodily and fleshly conceits of them that have curious and imaginative wits because of much error.

Ensample of this mayest thou see, by that that I bid thee hide thy desire from God in that that in thee is. For peradventure an I had bidden thee shew thy desire unto God, thou shouldest have conceived it more bodily than thou dost now, when I bid thee hide it. For thou wottest well, that all that thing that is wilfully hidden, it is cast into the deepness of spirit. And thus me thinketh that it needeth greatly to have much wariness in understanding of words that be spoken to ghostly intent, so that thou conceive them not bodily but ghostly, as they be meant: and specially it is good to be wary with this word in, and this word up. For in misconceiving of these two words hangeth much error, and much deceit in them that purpose them to be ghostly workers, as me thinketh. Somewhat wot I by the proof, and somewhat by hearsay; and of these deceits list me tell thee a little as me thinketh.

A young disciple in God’s school new turned from the world, the same weeneth that for a little time that he hath given him to penance and to prayer, taken by counsel in confession, that he be therefore able to take upon him ghostly working of the which he heareth men speak or read about him, or peradventure readeth himself. And therefore when they read or hear spoken of ghostly working—and specially of this word, “how a man shall draw all his wit within himself,” or “how he shall climb above himself”—as fast for blindness in soul, and for fleshliness and curiosity of natural wit, they misunderstand these words, and ween, because they find in them a natural covetyse to hid things, that they be therefore called to that work by grace. Insomuch, that if counsel will not accord that they shall work in this work, as soon they feel a manner of grumbling against their counsel, and think—yea and peradventure say to such other as they be—that they can find no man that can wit what they mean fully. And therefore as fast, for boldness and presumption of their curious wit, they leave meek prayer and penance over soon; and set them, they ween, to a full ghostly work within in their soul. The which work, an it be truly conceived, is neither bodily working nor ghostly working; and shortly to say, it is a working against nature, and the devil is the chief worker thereof. And it is the readiest way to death of body and of soul, for it is madness and no wisdom, and leadeth a man even to madness. And yet they ween not thus: for they purpose them in this work to think on nought but on God.

There's a difference of course between using simple everyday prepositions in a spiritual context, and the possible misunderstandings about what the ego may be.

We are both good at the moment and hoping to spend a bit of time on the coast soon - food for my camera

I hope you aren't suffering too much with your back pain - I do keep you in mind

Take care my friend

Great stuff John!
That’s an awesome quote you pulled up there!

Need to go over it two or three times I think though.
Back is being alright I suppose.
It is currently flaring though my pain is pretty good so far this time *knock on wood*.
Been trying some new things that have worked though not sustainable.

Much love!

 

[TheFool]

Both you Skarekrow and John have many great insights about dissolution of the ego and you both aknowledge the problem when ego-death is introduced for someone who is not yet ready to face the reality as it is from the behind our conceptual veil of conditioning mind.

Ego for me is the constitution of automatic reaction-behavior and identification with the thinking process as if there is something that we could call as a ”thinker”. This familiarity with the thinker and its behavior is quite the same kind of hypnotic state as we experience when we watch a movie. We become so absorbed with what we are seeing that we forget everything else around the tv and our own bodily sensations.

Now if one intends to strenghten that ego-identification our emotional and mental minds become even more easily disturbed by the outer circumstances. There are nonetheless different kinds of visualization practices that focus on clensing the ego from its deluged attachment and to transmute them into more wholesome attributes like patience, kindness, compassion and etc. As the self-picture is refined and stabilized to be more wholesome, we begin to experience the calmness within our hearts. This helps us to ground ourselves and to become more aware of what really is here and give less attention to the self-limiting and self-denying thought patterns. Most of the people who experience paranoia and fear after the dissolving of the ego are the ones who have not grounded their minds and hearts. For those who have prepared themselves accordingly, the ego-death is filled with peace, tranquility and compassion as their base awareness becomes more and more clear.

Everyone has their own path but it is more common in the West to people to jump ahead, especially while doing some cool Kundalini work or tripping on some powerful entheogen and wanting to see the fireworks right away. It takes often years of self-work, reflection, preparation and plenty of deaths and rebirths before the individual is truly ready to lift the veil.

So I agree this path is not for everyone but at the same time it is the path for everyone who chooses to commit their lives to walk it and endure the tribulations and initations you will face in your life.

Like Buddha is said to have said, “My path is bitter in the beginning but sweet in the end.”

Farewell!

 

[John K]

Both you Skarekrow and John have many great insights about dissolution of the ego and you both aknowledge the problem when ego-death is introduced for someone who is not yet ready to face the reality as it is from the behind our conceptual veil of conditioning mind.

Ego for me is the constitution of automatic reaction-behavior and identification with the thinking process as if there is something that we could call as a ”thinker”. This familiarity with the thinker and its behavior is quite the same kind of hypnotic state as we experience when we watch a movie. We become so absorbed with what we are seeing that we forget everything else around the tv and our own bodily sensations.

Now if one intends to strenghten that ego-identification our emotional and mental minds become even more easily disturbed by the outer circumstances. There are nonetheless different kinds of visualization practices that focus on clensing the ego from its deluged attachment and to transmute them into more wholesome attributes like patience, kindness, compassion and etc. As the self-picture is refined and stabilized to be more wholesome, we begin to experience the calmness within our hearts. This helps us to ground ourselves and to become more aware of what really is here and give less attention to the self-limiting and self-denying thought patterns. Most of the people who experience paranoia and fear after the dissolving of the ego are the ones who have not grounded their minds and hearts. For those who have prepared themselves accordingly, the ego-death is filled with peace, tranquility and compassion as their base awareness becomes more and more clear.

Everyone has their own path but it is more common in the West to people to jump ahead, especially while doing some cool Kundalini work or tripping on some powerful entheogen and wanting to see the fireworks right away. It takes often years of self-work, reflection, preparation and plenty of deaths and rebirths before the individual is truly ready to lift the veil.

So I agree this path is not for everyone but at the same time it is the path for everyone who chooses to commit their lives to walk it and endure the tribulations and initations you will face in your life.

Like Buddha is said to have said, “My path is bitter in the beginning but sweet in the end.”

Farewell!

Pañcavaggi Sutta: Five Brethren
(aka: Anatta-lakkhana Sutta: The Discourse on the Not-self Characteristic)
translated from the Pali by
Thanissaro Bhikkhu
© 1993

I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying at Varanasi in the Game Refuge at Isipatana. There he addressed the group of five monks:

"Form, monks, is not self. If form were the self, this form would not lend itself to dis-ease. It would be possible [to say] with regard to form, 'Let this form be thus. Let this form not be thus.' But precisely because form is not self, form lends itself to dis-ease. And it is not possible [to say] with regard to form, 'Let this form be thus. Let this form not be thus.'

"Feeling is not self...

"Perception is not self...

"[Mental] fabrications are not self...

"Consciousness is not self. If consciousness were the self, this consciousness would not lend itself to dis-ease. It would be possible [to say] with regard to consciousness, 'Let my consciousness be thus. Let my consciousness not be thus.' But precisely because consciousness is not self, consciousness lends itself to dis-ease. And it is not possible [to say] with regard to consciousness, 'Let my consciousness be thus. Let my consciousness not be thus.'

"What do you think, monks — Is form constant or inconstant?"

"Inconstant, lord."

"And is that which is inconstant easeful or stressful?"

"Stressful, lord."

"And is it fitting to regard what is inconstant, stressful, subject to change as: 'This is mine. This is my self. This is what I am'?"

"No, lord."

"...Is feeling constant or inconstant?"

"Inconstant, lord."...

"...Is perception constant or inconstant?"

"Inconstant, lord."...

"...Are fabrications constant or inconstant?"

"Inconstant, lord."...

"What do you think, monks — Is consciousness constant or inconstant?"

"Inconstant, lord."

"And is that which is inconstant easeful or stressful?"

"Stressful, lord."

"And is it fitting to regard what is inconstant, stressful, subject to change as: 'This is mine. This is my self. This is what I am'?"

"No, lord."

"Thus, monks, any form whatsoever that is past, future, or present; internal or external; blatant or subtle; common or sublime; far or near: every form is to be seen as it actually is with right discernment as: 'This is not mine. This is not my self. This is not what I am.'

"Any feeling whatsoever...

"Any perception whatsoever...

"Any fabrications whatsoever...

"Any consciousness whatsoever that is past, future, or present; internal or external; blatant or subtle; common or sublime; far or near: every consciousness is to be seen as it actually is with right discernment as: 'This is not mine. This is not my self. This is not what I am.'

"Seeing thus, the well-instructed disciple of the noble ones grows disenchanted with form, disenchanted with feeling, disenchanted with perception, disenchanted with fabrications, disenchanted with consciousness. Disenchanted, he becomes dispassionate. Through dispassion, he is fully released. With full release, there is the knowledge, 'Fully released.' He discerns that 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for this world.'"

That is what the Blessed One said. Gratified, the group of five monks delighted at his words. And while this explanation was being given, the hearts of the group of five monks, through not clinging (not being sustained), were fully released from fermentation/effluents.

 

[TheFool]

When we think about Nothingness we do it usually in a negative sense while in Buddhism it is done in a highly positive manner. And as we try to perceive nothingness through our minds it is already a fabrication which we try to create, how subtle it ever might be. Nothing is beyond that empty darkness. It has no form, color or place and yet it permeates all that is and is not as the fat permeates milk.

When we arrive back to our beginless source of emptiness and realize that it is not empty at all but permeated with all-transcending awareness which fulfills conciousness of every thing and non-thing that is, within and without us, then we can recognize that timless Seeingness that has always been, always is and always will be here in this beginless moment of nowness. That is when we arrive at our true path.

 

[Dado]

True Ego death happens only when person completely has purified his mind from cravings and negative emotions. That is the moment when mind stops clinging, break down of attachments and aversions which are control mechanisms for self survival. In that moment "person" gains full understanding of Ego as just being an illusion, diffrent layers of body-mind-sense complex acting together and creating sense of "I" and "mine".

 

[dragulagu]

Unsure whether true Ego death can happen. I do get the point of Ego death in a spiritual sense, pushing the self away for the realisation of the whole. But I'm not sure whether that would work well in actualisation in the environment we live in. Could one rather not focus on understanding their Ego and its role to the conscious self?

@John K 's summary is nice, didn't know Jung also focused on the ego as well. (good summary, man)

Having read up a bit further, I found this interesting description in regards to ego-death from a jungian point of view.

https://frithluton.com/articles/ego/

Anyone who has any ego-consciousness at all takes it for granted that he knows himself. But the ego knows only its own contents, not the unconscious and its contents. People measure their self-knowledge by what the average person in their social environment knows of himself, but not by the real psychic facts which are for the most part hidden from them. In this respect the psyche behaves like the body, of whose physiological and anatomical structure the average person knows very little too. [“The Undiscovered Self,” CW 10, par. 491.]

Identification with the self can manifest in two ways: the assimilation of the ego by the self, in which case the ego falls under the control of the unconscious; or the assimilation of the self to the ego, where the ego becomes overaccentuated. In both cases the result is inflation, with disturbances in adaptation.

Though I'm still not sure whether you can push the ego completely into the unconscious.

 

[Dado]

Person who experienced true Ego death (enlightened being) will still experience individuality, sense of I and mine, he will be able to differentiate between his body and rest of the objects within the world but at the same time he will also know that Ego is just an illusion. He will still be functional but also completely fearless in every situation because he knows that he is not body nor mind.