Is conservative really a Conservative?

Gul writes:
And how could you possibly think that Conservatives are 'forward-thinking'??? The very meaning of the word 'conservative' means that they're NOT forward thinking and want to 'conserve' as in keep things as they are and NOT move forward-- ie: traditional values, morality, less regulation, fewer taxes on the rich, etc.


The problem with the terminology and the definitions is that it tends to favor the Marxist map that in turn derives from Hegelian categories. Probably few are knowledgeable about Hegelian Marxism, but I teach philosophy at a college so let me explain this idea. Hegel thought that God was originally in the universe by Himself. Then, to come to know himself, He decides to create material reality. Slowly, he comes to know himself in matter. At first it's all rocks, then life (God) infiltrates rocks, and finally life begins with plants, then dinosaurs, and finally humanity. Hegel thought that with the advent of America God had finally arrived at knowing Himself because here we had freedom of speech. He was writing in about 1805. He also thought that Napoleon would do for Europe what Washington had done for America.

A few years later (1809?) Napoleon betrayed the French Revolution and crowned himself Emperor. Beethoven thought too that Napoleon was the new liberator of Europe. News travels slowly.

News continues to travel slowly through the left. After Hegel died his philosophy students split into two. There were right wing and left wing Hegelians. Both groups still exist, and both groups still claim Hegelian philosophy as the ultimate. I think it's rather stupid because the map of forwards and backwards is nonsense. There is right and wrong. Marx was obviously a left-wing Hegelian. He thought forward meant that when the proletariat owned the means of production then God would know Himself in time.

What is the problem with this? Marx also wanted a dictatorship of the proletariat. I'm not sure anyone here has read philosophy, or has thought about where your terminology comes from. But basically Marx ends up assigning "forward" to state capitalism. This means that the state runs the economy as it does today in China or in North Korea. (There is a lot more individual freedom in China, but that's another story -- they still haven't got internet access, and you can still go to jail for saying something the government doesn't like.) So let's say you get a bad product. Who do you complain to? The government. And if the government kills you for complaining, who do you complain to? The government. The Chinese government will take the organs of political prisoners and give them to party officials. Who are you going to complain to? The government?

And yet this is what the American left wants: a totalitarian healthcare system that is run by the IRS. We've just seen the totalitarian nature of the IRS. They blocked applications by Tea Party and other conservative groups to 501 status. This sounds good to leftists, but they don't realize the same thing can be done to them once the shoe is on the other foot. The Soviet Union and the Nazi medical systems used them to exterminate political opponents. Who do you think ran Auschwitz? It was the doctors such as Dr. Mengele (later a famous abortion doctor in Argentina who hundreds of thousands of abortions).

This is probably too much for many of you to take in at once. Who do you think is going to regulate a universal healthcare system? The government will do it. It will also be universal deathcare. They will decide who will live and who will die. Obviously their political opponents will die. There goes freedom of speech.

A better system is that of the checks and balances of James Madison which comes out of Lockean liberalism. That's what "conservatives" want to "conserve." They want to conserve Lockean liberalism. Locke is the brains behind the American Constitution. Instead of universal totalitarian government that owns everything (including your organs) you now have four basic principles: life, liberty, health and private property. Private property is the most important of these because it guarantees the other three. This is very difficult and requires years to understand. Most of you went through Marxist schooling and don't know any better. They brainwashed you. You are now part of their cult. You can't think your way out of it unless you read the Wall Street Journal, watch Fox, and try to understand the deeper roots of your terminology. I don't expect this from anyone. I'm a garden variety cult cracker, I suppose.

Obama's father and mother were Marxists and his high school mentor Frank Marshall Davis was a Marxist. He studied with Marxists throughout college and says in his memoirs that he sought out Marxist professors. He hasn't risen very far from this. He thinks state capitalism is a good thing. He doesn't really connect the dots between his thought and the Soviet Union and North Korea because he's basically the stupidest president we've ever had. Not because he hasn't got an IQ but because he has never had any other thinking. He's a cult member. The media at present is zombified by him because he's black. They think to attack him is to attack his race. But of course it's the content of his character that needs to be questioned. He is a Marxist robot who uses race rather than class as his criterion. Once you see this, you see all the other attending problems he's created and you realize we're dealing with an African dictator along the lines of Patrick Mugabe.

To all the stupefied, this is progress. But he's beginning to seize phone records of journalists. He's also begun to use the IRS as a thumbscrew against his opponents. He's ultimately going to use healthcare to murder his opponents just as the Chinese and the North Koreans, the Soviets and the National Socialists did. What we need to conserve is checks and balances. The government should stay out of industry. The government should be a check against industry. If government becomes the industrial producer, who's going to check it? In the Soviet Union this is how they got Chernobyl and the dried up Aral Sea (once the fourth largest, now a mud puddle).

I realize it's hopeless. I'm competing against your four years of brainwashing with the equivalent of a single letter. None of you will even try to listen. That's fine, I'm used to it.
 
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Conservatives fail to appreciate the necessity of infrastructure.
Conservatives rely on a supernatural attending agency to guide the future of their nations.
Conservatives see sloth and avarice as the drivers of generational poverty.
Conservatives believe fear is the only basis of respect.
 
Healthcare is a perfect example of politics trumping conservative values. 90% of the conservatives who oppose the healthcare reform currently being implemented are driven by the belief that health care is either a benefit bestowed upon worthy workers by beneficent employers or a service purchased by individuals.

But when a beneficent employer wants to bag out on healthcare commitments made a generation ago and leave a bunch of ailing seniors in the lurch, conservatives will claim it is the demands of business that are dooming the retirees.

It would seem that the smart move would be to take employers out of the healthcare business all together, make it part of the infrastructure of the nation. But any move to do that is met with derision, claims of Fascism, Communism, Socialism, or even Atheism.
 
problemz:

Do you really need to be so condescending? All that you've proven with your unfocused rants and semi-literate first year undergrad posturing is that you're unwilling to be critical of yourself (which is also a right wing attribute). I cannot honestly believe that you think so little of the people on this board that you would stoop to mentioning the dictatorship of the proletariat as if its some sort of obscure factoid that only the most elite among us would ever be able to comprehend. It's especially interesting that you also failed to mention that it's only necessary for a short period of time and only in the event of a revolution, which isn't necessarily integral to the development of a communist or socialist society. I guess you just wanted to make Marxism sound scary and thought so little of everyone else that you just assumed we wouldn't bother to grill you for it.

And somehow the way to discover the truth is to consume only right-wing media and ignore the rest? How could you possibly be a college professor if you're unwilling to even attempt objectivity? Which of your misguided uncles put you in a position where you're influencing young minds?

I don't even know where to begin to approach your conspiracy theory, which seems to make an awful lot of assumptions and predictions without any points of reference (and why are you even talking about Hegel and God?)-- but I will say that you only need to look at Canada and Europe to see that public health care does not always equal China, which, btw has been moving away from state programs and has seen the living standards of its poor drop because of it.

And yes, the left is not above corruption-- how is this news? Are you saying that there isn't a single politician in the Republican party who would ever dream of wrongdoing, or of trying to tip the scales in their own favor? You can't generalize the actions of a few to everyone who identifies as leftist… and the leap from IRS targeting of right wing groups to organ harvesting and the kind of human rights abuses that you see in China is pretty enormous.

There's always a chance that things could slip into tyranny, sure… but when exactly has this not been the case? If there is any kind of legitimate power structure involved, or any kind of stable government, then the threat of tyranny is there and in a democracy both political parties (but most likely the one not in power) is going to exploit that to try to win your vote. That doesn't mean that it's going to happen or that the scaremongering about what you think might happen is going to help you to understand what actually is happening… it's all a game-- when you have a weak candidate, make the other guy seem scary so you come out looking like the lesser evil.

And there's a HUGE difference between a state providing a service to people who would otherwise go without, and a state actively seeking to control its citizens… the general idea is that if the state could provide the basics for everyone, they wouldn't actually NEED to control anyone, they could placate them by providing them with everything they need to be happy and fulfilled. Even if that hasn't actually happened in the past, Marxism isn't just a big lie cooked up to make people vote for fascists-- that's absolutely absurd and if you're actually teaching this to people you should stop right now.

Marxism was demonized in the west during the cold war and there are still traces of that hysteria present in American culture, but it doesn't mean that we should just assume the whole ideology is a failure. Plenty of left wing ideas that have finally been allowed to trickle into the west are worth the time and effort and could have a genuinely positive impact on society. Demonizing them just encourages ignorance.
 
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Marxism in praxis has always been simply a nightmarish goon squad at the door in the middle of the night. In Cuba the penalty for opening the internet without authorization is four years in prison. In China there were 70,000 industrial deaths last year alone. In North Korea there are 200,000 people in prison. Some because they opened a Bible. A woman named Ryon Ok was beheaded for distributing Bibles in public in North Korea. If you listen to alternative news sources you would know these things. Most of the left is trying to get us to look the other way.
 
To all the stupefied, this is progress. But he's beginning to seize phone records of journalists. He's also begun to use the IRS as a thumbscrew against his opponents. He's ultimately going to use healthcare to murder his opponents just as the Chinese and the North Koreans, the Soviets and the National Socialists did. What we need to conserve is checks and balances. The government should stay out of industry. The government should be a check against industry. If government becomes the industrial producer, who's going to check it? In the Soviet Union this is how they got Chernobyl and the dried up Aral Sea (once the fourth largest, now a mud puddle).

While I agree with the parts about the IRS, and support the concept of checks and balances, can you please explain how Obama going to accomplish the bolded when he is going to inevitably be out of office in 2016? We've already got a few democratic ex-presidents (Jimmy Carter, Bill Clinton) and I'm fairly certain they are not running around murdering people. Starting to sound a little overly conspiracy-ish.

Of course, if half congress drops dead in the next two years I'll know you're right.
 
I think he will try to stay in power by using Michelle as his proxy or by changing the term limits rules. That latter will be difficult because it would mean two-thirds of the states would have to ratify the change. The only other way to do it is by using the military. It's not clear to me that it can be done, but I think if he could do it, he would. I'm seeing changes that are enacted so quickly I have to wonder if he can complete his program. Today it came out that millions of Verizon customers are having their phone calls analyzed. While I support some of this to stop terrorism, I wonder what else he's got going as he combs through the records.

I haven't really dealt with a major problem brought up by Gul Dukat -- Canada and of course the Scandinavian states. All I can say is that these are not Marxist countries. They still allow private property and private enterprise. I lived in Finland many years. The taxation rates were very high. 98% was the top bracket. But there was a shadow economy. One thing I did was pick up bottles after their massive celebrations (usually accompanied by drinking). You could make a couple of thousand dollars in a night by recycling the bottles. A lot of people did things like that to get untaxed money.

Gul thinks the "dictatorship of the proletariat" will "wither away" as Marx said. Once all the property belongs to the government, the government isn't going anywhere. Never has. Did Castro bug out? Did Kim Sung-Il? Did Stalin?

The only thing is to return to private property. No one person has nearly as much money as the government these days. But together we can still stand against the government for a while longer. Especially if the press will begin to attack the government for its crimes as it should. Obama must be attacked. His ideas don't work. He claims that the healthcare bill will save us all money. It's already cost a trillion and it hasn't gone into effect yet. It will steal money from the poor. It will create 16,000 MORE IRS agents. It's going to be an army of sleuths going through everything we've got to try to get our money and get us under the thumbscrew of the government.
 
Hm, well, that is an interesting theory, and all I can say is that if Michelle is going to run for president in 2016, she'd better get a move on, because that is only a little more than two years away. And she'll need a better platform than organic gardening and childhood obesity. I don't know, it seems like we do have a few existing checks and balances in place, and I sincerely hope Obama does not succeed in eliminating term limitations, which never troubled Castro, Kim Sung-Il or Stalin.
 
That latter will be difficult because it would mean two-thirds of the states would have to ratify the change
if he kills two thirds of the population with healthcare then he is a shoe in
 
It will take a longer time than this term. But if has the will of the people with him, he may be able to override Constitutional protections. We are beginning to see the media turning on him. Woodward has stood up to Obama. A few others are likely to do so as well.

The university system in America now belongs solely to the left. At Duke for instance which tried to lynch the lacrosse players there are 580 professors who are listed as Democrats or further left (in the humanities). 88 of these signed a letter claiming that the lacrosse players were guilty (without evidence and without trial) and should be thrown off the campus. The attorney general followed their lead. After years of investigation it came out that the stripper lied. The AG lost his job and his licence to practice law. Nothing happened to the group of 88. There were three Republicans in the Humanities departments. That's better than they had in Cambodia under the Khmer Rouge but not much.

The left is busy drumming their keywords into the minds of students across America. Privilege. Race. Class. Gender. Tolerance.

They own the entire university system of which approximately 80% of students attend. There ARE a few religious schools remaining such as LIBERTY, and REGIS, and a hand full of Catholic schools.

Everyone else is indoctrinated now by the left, the same left that created Obama's brainwaves if you can call them that.

Against this, there remain a few pesky networks: Fox News, WSJ, and very few others. And of course the churches.

But in the south there is also a blue dog Democratic tradition, and some other networks that haven't gone soft in the head with Marxism lite (precursor to the full-blown Orwellian variety).

We also still have the SCOTUS, and other judges (Obama has enough judges to choose from now that he can present his wishes to any one of them and they will let him do virtually anything he wants).

His tentacles reach everywhere now even into your brain and your pocket. He's a pickpocket and a liar and an ingenious bozo much like Stalin but without the apparatus. His apparatus (healthcare) won't even kick in until he's mostly gone. If Michelle gets in (she's a complete buffoon so she probably won't) or if Hillary gets in, their revolution will be complete.

They will have to change the Constitution and destroy the bill of rights first. The second amendment is on its way out. The first, too. Right now all they can do is demonize any sensible news outlet. There are many kids who are terrified to watch Fox News because they think it will hurt them. I have even known full blown adults who won't watch it because they've heard one thing taken out of context by Bill O'Reilly on NPR and this is enough to suffice to warn them off. But everyone has lapses. Even the great Obama once said there were 57 states.

But the big fight now is over keywords. The term "conservative" is of course a loaded term, and when pared with "progressive," is basically bad and good, for the Hegelian left (that doesn't even know it constitutes a Hegelian left).

The fight must partially be to change the terminology. I would prefer "functional" versus "non-functional." "Profit-making" versus "in need of a handout." "Smart" versus "stupid." "Lockean intelligentsia" versus "communist pud-pounders." "Pro-life" versus "baby-killing sex maniacs."

But these terms can't be changed without the mainstream media and the universities and late-night comedians who are now setting the terms for the brain-washed young.

Perhaps nuancing conservative to include "conservation" and "conservatories" would be a nice way to begin the changing of the terminology. At present, everything is coalescing in the communist pud-pounders favor and there's nothing much I can do about it.
 
You have the correct definition of conservative.

The fact is though, that people misuse words all the time. It's that simple.
 
@Lerxst , Canadians especially have political parties that fit your familiar American notions of conservative and liberal, because a) Canada has a political system that was modeled after a lot of US influence, and b) Canada has a lot of issues that are somewhat similar to what America has to deal with.

As for the rest of the world, American style capitalist values are spreading. The elite are coerced into letting them take over their own countries because they want to make money. The world is slowly becoming Americanized.
 
@Lerxst , Canadians especially have political parties that fit your familiar American notions of conservative and liberal, because a) Canada has a political system that was modeled after a lot of US influence, and b) Canada has a lot of issues that are somewhat similar to what America has to deal with.

As for the rest of the world, American style capitalist values are spreading. The elite are coerced into letting them take over their own countries because they want to make money. The world is slowly becoming Americanized.
Don't you think that the US' departure from the British Commonwealth, and Canada's remaining would make for dissimilarity?

Anyhow, 'Conservative' and 'liberal' would seem to refer to attitudes towards a particular country's constitutional and historical principles. They are always relative terms.

So at present pro-gay attitudes are liberal; but in 100 years they may well be conservative; whereas anti-gay attitudes may now be conservative, but in 100 years they may be liberal.
 
Don't you think that the US' departure from the British Commonwealth, and Canada's remaining would make for dissimilarity?

Anyhow, 'Conservative' and 'liberal' would seem to refer to attitudes towards a particular country's constitutional and historical principles. They are always relative terms.

So at present pro-gay attitudes are liberal; but in 100 years they may well be conservative; whereas anti-gay attitudes may now be conservative, but in 100 years they may be liberal.

Yes but it doesn't take away from the validity of what I brought up. What you are describing seems to contradict [MENTION=2890]Lerxst[/MENTION] 's observations which form the basis for this thread.
 
Marxism in praxis has always been simply a nightmarish goon squad at the door in the middle of the night. In Cuba the penalty for opening the internet without authorization is four years in prison. In China there were 70,000 industrial deaths last year alone. In North Korea there are 200,000 people in prison. Some because they opened a Bible. A woman named Ryon Ok was beheaded for distributing Bibles in public in North Korea. If you listen to alternative news sources you would know these things. Most of the left is trying to get us to look the other way.

You don't need to listen to alternative news sources to know that North Korea and China have poor human rights records, and I really don't think that the left is begging Obama to make us more like China or North Korea. I don't know if you mean that leftists literally want this or you're mounting some sort of slippery slope argument-- I hope it's the latter, but even if it is, you're way way way way off base with this. I'm pretty sure that most people on the left AND the right are deeply opposed to killing or imprisoning people for expressing their opinions.

If you're trolling, well done... I responded, raged and laughed.
 
I tend to see the worst shadows in the leftist mindset. Even Santa is satan!

:mxmas:
 
So at present pro-gay attitudes are liberal; but in 100 years they may well be conservative; whereas anti-gay attitudes may now be conservative, but in 100 years they may be liberal.

Just because you don't agree with what mainstream society values, it doesn't make you a liberal, and I would say that it doesn't make you a conservative either. If you're in a relatively liberal society and you're happy with things being as they are, then you might be called a conservative. The liberal in that society would be the one pushing for even more rights and freedoms for people (say, polygamy), not less. I suppose that today's radical is next year's liberal is the following year's conservative... something like that.

If you think that the society has gone too far and become too free (probably in terms of civil rights and protections), then you're more like a reactionary-- this person would be saying that gay people should NOT be allowed to marry and society should outlaw the practice. Some people consider reactionaries and conservatives to be the same thing, but I think it's probably better to make a distinction-- since one of these views is moderate and still relatively liberal whereas the other is intolerant and for lack of a better word regressive.
 
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Marxism in praxis has always been simply a nightmarish goon squad at the door in the middle of the night. In Cuba the penalty for opening the internet without authorization is four years in prison. In China there were 70,000 industrial deaths last year alone. In North Korea there are 200,000 people in prison. Some because they opened a Bible. A woman named Ryon Ok was beheaded for distributing Bibles in public in North Korea. If you listen to alternative news sources you would know these things. Most of the left is trying to get us to look the other way.
In America, the penalty for pointing out to the internet that the government has murdered innocents in recent wars can be life in prison.
In America, 45,000 people die annually lacking health insurance.
In America, 2.2 million people are in prison at any given time.

Are you seeing patterns? These aren't new things, either, having started in the Reagan era (a booming prison population and millions without healthcare) and the neocon era of Bush II (attacking journalists for being journalists).

And I don't know if you know this, but North Korea hasn't been constitutionally Marxist-Leninist for about 30 years. Their thing is the Juche Idea, very loosely based on Marxism-Leninism but with hypernationalism and right-wing authoritarianism mixed in.

To call any of these places "left" is absurdity. These are very conservative societies - whether traditionally or in the modern era - and can't exactly be held up as bastions of left-wing ideas. No one's looking to (state capitalist) China for inspiration. The age of Mao is over. No one ever looked to Cuba or North Korea for inspiration.

On top of that, there is no record of a Ryon Ok ever being beheaded in North Korea. The only mention of it on the entire internet seems to be right here on INFJs. I have no doubt North Korea kills believers, but they probably do it with firing squads. But hey, if you're going to North Korea to spread Bibles in blatant contradiction to their laws about it, you should be shot for your stupidity.
 
I wish that you had made sense so that I could respond. You seem to be both for and against FDR and Obama, for and against the Republicans, for and against total taxation. The thing to remember is that when the rich and industrious keep their wealth they can employ the poor. When they can't only government can give out checks in exchange for votes. This is Obama's plan.
You mean someone doesn't make sense if they connect the dots in a logical and flowing manner instead of just throwing out pseudo-intellectual freedom fighter bullshit taken from Alex Jones or Godlike Productions? I'm sorry I'm not schizophrenic enough that you can follow me.

The wealthy captured 121% of all income gains over the last couple years in the Great Recession. Corporate profits have skyrocketed. CEOs make more money now than they ever have. 1/5 of jobs lost to the recession were minimum wage, compared with 3/5 gained back after. The United States economy has tripled since 1990, going from approximately $5 trillion GDP to almost $16 trillion. Trickle-down economics of GIVE THE RICH THEIR MONEY AND WE WILL HAVE SOME TOO doesn't work. The rich are richer than ever and pay less taxes than any time since the 1920s, excepting Ronald Reagan's aborted attempt at lowering taxes so abysmally low our national debt tripled in the process (from under a trillion to $3 trillion). But yeah, they will employ the poor: anywhere there are sweatshops to produce goods for the consumers left that can afford them. They don't want to spread the wealth around, they want to control all the wealth. That's when they'll be satisfied. They're getting close, too, having sapped the middle class and the working poor of their income to the point when a first world society like ours can barely afford even the sweatshop-produced products.

Let the industrious remain industrious. It is private industry that will help us all including the poor.
Bullshit. The expansion of private industry to the point where our GDP tripled since 1990 has done nothing for the common man or woman.

Government seizure of private money leads to long-lasting depressions.
The last depression was the Great Depression and the rich paid next to nothing in taxes when that happened. The Great Recession that started under Bush II happened at a time when taxes were sustained lower than they had been since the Great Depression. Oddly, the whole of American society prospered, with a gigantic middle class and an extremely low rate of poverty primarily from the 1940s to the early 1970s - you know, the time when taxes were 30%+ higher than today? Although we can't exactly blame Nixon and his boy Kissinger for wanting to stick it to the Arabs and the Soviets at the same time. (Oh wait, yeah we can. They were bastards.)

There are some stock market reforms now, but very few. We need a fiscal conservative with a sense of realism who will fix this. You have to be able to pay back your debts. This is something that Obama just doesn't understand.
You mean like Bush II who put us in this fucking whole in the first place, leaving office with a $1.5 trillion deficit just 8 years after Clinton had left office with a massive budget surplus? Once a budget has been as bastardized as Bush II left it, it's going to be pretty fucking hard and painful to work out of it. Obama couldn't do it overnight. Romney would have made it worse with his lowering of taxes (which, by the way, lowers government revenue and thus the ability to pay anything back!) and totally fiscally irresponsible policies. If anything, Obama deserves some applause for cutting the budget deficit by $400 billion a year so far. That's a big decrease. And Republicans in Congress haven't been especially helpful for the past 3 years.

We ought to also stop trading with China. 70,000 die every year in industrial accidents in China so we can have chotchkes.
No, we need to kill these free trade agreements and tax the fuck out of products coming from abroad.

We ought to trade only with countries that allow total freedom of religion and freedom of speech.
So we shouldn't trade with ourselves with people like Bradley Manning going to prison for his freedom of speech? Okay.
 
Oh yeah, to add:

You seem to be both for and against FDR and Obama, for and against the Republicans, for and against total taxation.
I'm for FDR insofar as he taxed the rich, put the poor and unemployed to work, led us through WWII with flying colors, and made us into the most powerful nation on the planet in 1945. It's pretty hard to ignore the merits of the person who took us from 17th in military power to 1st. It's also pretty hard to ignore the person that lead the United States to capture about half the world's wealth.

And Obama has been nothing like that. He's been pretty shit, actually. But there is literally no way any of Obama's major competitors could do better, except maybe Hillary but she wasn't on the ballot, and she's not much different regardless. Every day I'm glad to wake up to a world where Mitt Romney isn't president, a world where Sarah Palin isn't vice president, and a world where Ron Paul is finally out of business. Praise hipster Jesus!

On the other side of these issues, I'm strongly anti-capitalist. Anti-capitalist, anti-liberal, anti-conservative, anti-Democrat, and anti-Republican. My beliefs on society, what society should be, and how society should get there are so far away from any mainstream United States current of political thought that I can merely point out the best in these people I only support on the basis of lesser evils.

I'm a hard-left socialist with anarchist and Marxist tendencies. There is nothing in the USA's political environment I can support aside from LGBT rights and women's rights.
 
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