Is deception inherently bad?

This seeems more like "Does the end justify the means" rather then right or wrong.



Soulful said:
Is anything inherently bad?
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Satya said:
We are overdue for a nice philosophical discussion.

Discuss.
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Obviously it is. But also, obviously, there are times when deception is needed. Like in personal situations of minor importance to the grand scheme of things.

If people were honest with each other, there would be much less misunderstanding, which I think is the focal point of much of the problems of the WORLD.
 
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Satya said:
We are overdue for a nice philosophical discussion.

Discuss.
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No. It's just that if it's too widely employed, our society is in the toilet, so most of us reserve it for social niceties and dire situations.

The more I think about it, the more I realize that humans do have a pretty good sense of the categorical imperative already.
 
What sort of thing is "bad?" I can't answer the question because I don't know what "bad" is in this context.


If it means something about the usefulness of deception, then no, not at all. I'd even go so far as to say that no idea is useless. Convincing people of the "right" thing for the "wrong" reason is useful at times.

If it means something about the moral character of deception, then I'd say your question was unanswerable in any sort of way that isn't just another one of the "What is your favorite X?!" threads. You're asking me, "Do you like deception?" In which case I'd say it is contextual, as it is sometimes useful yet often against my personal agendas.

If it means something anthropological/sociological/social psychology then I'd say that it is "bad." Bad in this case just means what is going to draw social sanction. Although deception won't always draw social sanction or punishment, most people in society don't appreciate the uses it has and will seek to gain "justice" upon being deceived.

If it means something in a personality psychology way, then we're loosely back in the moral sense, as we're talking about "deceitful people" or people that have the virtue/vice of "deceit." In this case I wouldn't know where to begin, as I have no idea how to distinguish those that have the virtue/vice of "deceit" and those that do not beyond vague intuitive notions of the matter.
 
TheLastMohican said:
Yes: health care.
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When I look at your avatar I always think of Britain, you self centered snob.

I am certain you were born in the wrong country, now get your ass in gear and move to a proper country, i.e England.
 
I used to think that sometimes deception was good or even necessary, but at this point in my life, I think that even with good intentions, no matter how badly the truth hurts, being deceived is never my preference, and my answer to your question depends on what you mean by "bad."

Is it always evil to try to deceive someone? No, because, like I said, often people have good intentions. They want to protect you from the truth, so they lie or conceal. Like someone else pointed out, sometimes we even like to deceive ourselves, and I agree that it is very much a defense mechanism. (I won't go into it, but I get this from growing up in the midst of boyband mania and now observing the effects of Twilight on fourteen-year-old girls.)

Is deception usually a bad idea? I think yes, and I might change my mind, but that's how I feel at the moment. At some point, there is always a moment of truth, whether you find it out from someone else or you look back and see it for yourself. And in that moment of truth, there is often a sort of regret. Sometimes there's embarassment. Sometimes there's this frustration because it's like, Ahh! Why didn't I know this sooner? I could've reacted proactively! It's not like you can be fooled forever. (Or can you?)


Oh, jeez. I'm rambling. I don't see how any of this will make sense to any of you. But there's my answer for you.
 
What type of deception prevents harm?

Sounds like you're deluding yourself. How can you possibly know what is best for another person? When you deceive them or withold information from them, you're stealing their own right to a choice.

Let people do as they will with the truth, no matter how inconvenient it would be for you to deal with it.
 
acd said:
Let people do as they will with the truth, no matter how inconvenient it would be for you to deal with it.
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What we have here ladies and gentlemen, is a truth.
 
acd said:
What type of deception prevents harm?

Sounds like you're deluding yourself. How can you possibly know what is best for another person? When you deceive them or withold information from them, you're stealing their own right to a choice.

Let people do as they will with the truth, no matter how inconvenient it would be for you to deal with it.
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It's pretty common that people don't know what is best for themselves as people are generally not very self-aware or reflective. It's also common that a reflective, thoughtful person does have the answer.

As Aristotle pointed out, it is the philosopher that accepts reason on its logos alone. We must learn rhetoric: logos, ethos, and pathos, so to bring those that are not as reasonable into the better fold.

Deceit is only a tool. A hammer can fix your neighbor's deck or it can splatter his brains. It is how you use a tool that determines its moral goodness.
 
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From what I understand, especially when dealing with INFs
Is; deception is always justifiable when performing it but never acceptable when receiving it.
This is my problem with INFs in general (this includes myself eh?)
We are hypocrites like that.
 
INFJesus said:
From what I understand, especially when dealing with INFs
Is; deception is always justifiable when performing it but never acceptable when receiving it.
This is my problem with INFs in general (this includes myself eh?)
We are hypocrites like that.
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Not always. I do not mind deception when the person has good intent with doing so. If I don't agree with the persons view of "good intent" I will likely try to buck it, but that doesn't always make them incorrect for doing so. The deception I preform on others is totally undetectable, and very mild, and as I said before, I have very good intentions. If I do feel that the person deserves to know, I will also tell them what I have done. There are times where deception goes farther then I deem good, and when it has all passed, I tell them what occured. It balences it out.
 
Duty said:
It's pretty common that people don't know what is best for themselves as people are generally not very self-aware or reflective. It's also common that a reflective, thoughtful person does have the answer.
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Ok.

Duty said:
As Aristotle pointed out, it is the philosopher that accepts reason on its logos alone. We must learn rhetoric: logos, ethos, and pathos, so to bring those that are not as reasonable into the better fold.

Deceit is only a tool. A hammer can fix your neighbor's deck or it can splatter his brains. It is how you use a tool that determines its moral goodness.
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The tool is knowledge. You can keep it to yourself, though the information will directly affect the person, keeping them ignorant..'Splattering their brains' Or give them the information and use your own knowledge to support and encourage them in their decision so that they can 'fix their own deck.'

That's kind of the point of relationships, being supportive and insightful for people when they need help solving their own problems.

Witholding information denies the person of learning their own lessons and building upon their own insight and wisdom. People have to live their own lives, nobody can live anyone's life for them.

Terrible things happen, keeping someone ignorant will only serve to make the problem worse. Problems don't go away because they are ignored. I've got enough cracked family secrets to know that.

If a piece of troublesome information would devastate someone, it's still their responsibility and right to make their own decision, no matter how uncomfortable. Life is not supposed to be bliss.
 
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IndigoSensor said:
Not always. I do not mind deception when the person has good intent with doing so. If I don't agree with the persons view of "good intent" I will likely try to buck it, but that doesn't always make them incorrect for doing so. The deception I preform on others is totally undetectable, and very mild, and as I said before, I have very good intentions. If I do feel that the person deserves to know, I will also tell them what I have done. There are times where deception goes farther then I deem good, and when it has all passed, I tell them what occured. It balences it out.
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Sorry man, you do seem like a very decent dude, we have not yet interacted, but I know good people when I see them and you are all right by me.
BUT I am an INFP and I can't help myself, I am just playing devil's advocate LOL
So, if they deserve to know, why deceive them in the first place?
 
acd said:
The tool is knowledge. You can keep it to yourself, though the information will directly affect the person, keeping them ignorant..'Splattering their brains' Or give them the information and use your own knowledge to support and encourage them in their decision so that they can 'fix their own deck.'

That's kind of the point of relationships, being supportive and insightful for people when they need help solving their own problems.

Witholding information denies the person of learning their own lessons and building upon their own insight and wisdom. People have to live their own lives, nobody can live anyone's life for them.

Terrible things happen, keeping someone ignorant will only serve to make the problem worse. Problems don't go away because they are ignored. I've got enough cracked family secrets to know that.

If a piece of troublesome information would devastate someone, it's still their responsibility and right to make their own decision, no matter how uncomfortable. Life is not supposed to be bliss.
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The problem is actually not one of knowledge, it is one of decision making, especially when a person's decisions effect other people.

Have you never been in a situation where you have far superior understanding and know the other person will make a poor decision? You can't always convince people of the right way, you don't always have the time, and they don't always have the best intention or capability.

If you borrow your friend's gun and he comes by your house a week later, drunk and enraged at his wife, and demands the gun back...well, lying becomes a good decision. Why? Because you can't convince your friend of the right thing to do, he doesn't have the best intentions and he doesn't have the capability to make a good choice. You are in a far superior position of understanding and decision making then he is, and he (probably) has no right to make the crappy decision he is about to make.


So sometimes withholding information, being deceitful, or outright lying is the best thing to do. As with all things, it has a use, you just have to be creative with it. :)
 
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Good example.
But what? I lie? Say I don't have the gun because I returned it yesterday (he wouldn't believe it, no matter how drunk) and send him home to beat his wife? Dumbing things down for people and sugar coating doesn't seem right.

I would tell him I was not going to give him the gun and offer him a place to calm down and spend the night. Tell him he's acting irrationally and I'm worried he will hurt someone.

Though I'm taking the situation into my own hands and not allowing him to make a poor decision that will harm himself and his wife, I'm not deceiving him.

If he insists on being out of control, I would call the cops on him. That's pretty serious, you can either calm the fuck down, talk it out with a friend, and sleep on the couch or spend the night in jail sleeping it off. But I'm a tough love person.

I would choose to diffuse the situation without deceiving.
 
INFJesus said:
Sorry man, you do seem like a very decent dude, we have not yet interacted, but I know good people when I see them and you are all right by me.
BUT I am an INFP and I can't help myself, I am just playing devil's advocate LOL
So, if they deserve to know, why deceive them in the first place?
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It's cool, don't worry about it. It is often for the greater good, or to help them out on a personal level. I can't pull out an example at the moment. The best way I could explain it, would be trying to aid someone into coming to a relisation that would take far too long for it to naturally happen. Or, to mediate social troubles happening between people that are totally unnesscerry and will only worsen the situation.
 
IndigoSensor said:
It's cool, don't worry about it. It is often for the greater good, or to help them out on a personal level. I can't pull out an example at the moment. The best way I could explain it, would be trying to aid someone into coming to a relisation that would take far too long for it to naturally happen. Or, to mediate social troubles happening between people that are totally unnesscerry and will only worsen the situation.
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That is a good answer.. I though you were going to say "to spare their feelings" which is why I tend to deceive people.
 
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