Is Feminism Outdated?

[say what]

The issue is that the extreme feminists are the ones that get pegged as what feminism is all about.

Feminists aren't denying physical and biological differences between the sexes- the issue comes with social and cultural limitations. The right to vote. The right to have say over our own body. The right to pursue any education and career. The choice to wear what we want...the list goes on.

There are certain issues, such as domestic violence, that affects everyone - man or woman - and is wrong no matter who experiences it. Feminists aren't denying that men don't deserve rights and protection, what they're saying is that there are populations more vulnerable and at risk. The fact that there are physical differences between men and women mean that if a man puts his fist to a woman's face, it's likely to have more damaging impacts than the reverse- not always, but more often.

The idea of feminism is that there are populations at risk and more vulnerable, and we need to recognize that and put resources in place to help them. It's not always women, but often it is.

 

[muir]

The issue is that the extreme feminists are the ones that get pegged as what feminism is all about.

Feminists aren't denying physical and biological differences between the sexes- the issue comes with social and cultural limitations. The right to vote. The right to have say over our own body. The right to pursue any education and career. The choice to wear what we want...the list goes on.

There are certain issues, such as domestic violence, that affects everyone - man or woman - and is wrong no matter who experiences it. Feminists aren't denying that men don't deserve rights and protection, what they're saying is that there are populations more vulnerable and at risk. The fact that there are physical differences between men and women mean that if a man puts his fist to a woman's face, it's likely to have more damaging impacts than the reverse- not always, but more often.

The idea of feminism is that there are populations at risk and more vulnerable, and we need to recognize that and put resources in place to help them. It's not always women, but often it is.

That's all fine say what and i know that you are a big hearted person

But there is more at play here

There is linguistically a bias built into the word 'feminism'

Everything is energy including thoughts and words

'feminism' is not something most guys can rally around in the same way that most women would not want to rally around masculinism

'Equality' on the other hand is something that both sexes can rally around because it is energetically neutral

You talk about the risks of violence but there are many risks out there for people including financial ones, legal ones, child custody, stress, depression, health (mental and physical) etc

Also as you know i believe there is an agenda at work in our society; I do not believe that the government wants harmony between the sexes so i see all this through a different lens to most people

But i also know i'm right lol

I'm not saying that to be arrogant i'm just saying it in a matter of fact way because i have looked at layers to this issue that some people are not aware of and will not read about in academic feminist literature

This is why i make confident predictions that are all on the record

The economy will worsen, tensions will rise in families, the law will punish men

 

[muir]

I'm gonna post some stuff i stumbled across

It's a talk titled ''transforming the boys crisis''

The speaker is a controversial figure...he seems to have drawn a lot of hostility from certain quarters

To be honest i'm not really familiar with his work and am only part way through his talk but thought i'd post it as it's all food for thought. I'm not too clued up on the guy either but he says he used to be a feminist until he saw something happening to young men in our society and then he felt he needed to speak out about the new crisis

But before I post that talk i want to post a clip showing the demonstration outside the auditorium where some feminists picket the doors trying to bar people from going in

The main argument of the feminists seems to be that the speaker has said rape is exciting however my undertsanding is that he did not say that and that his words have been completely twisted

Its my guess that certain people have fed impressionable student groups missinformation in order to galvanise them into action against this talk

I guess if we want to know whats going on we have to listen for ourselves to the guy

The short clip of the protest is interesting though...

[video=youtube;iARHCxAMAO0]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iARHCxAMAO0[/video]

Here's the main talk:

[video=youtube;P6w1S8yrFz4]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P6w1S8yrFz4[/video]

 

[LucyJr]

i think its way more like you want them to be your idea of what they should be.

And I think you are a idiot...so...
Plus, you can't be a feminist male, aren't you? Let the feminists speak, the true feminists!

 

[LucyJr]

i dont think that they think they are inferior.

And I think you are a idiot again.

 

[LucyJr]

I dont think so, well, anyone who is a feminist could claim that.

Radical feminists used to attack women for being male identified or wanting "to be men", then again radicalism is not the same as the militancy or misandry it has come to mean, at least not originally.

There is a very good basis for believing that despite being egalitarian or even supporting woman's liberation that you either are not or can not be a feminist because the more sophisticated varieties are clear in endorsing and promoting feminity for both men and women, it goes beyond acknowledging difference, supporting difference, aiming to correct disparity of esteem and towards considering feminity as superior.

That's another weird think within feminism...about "being in touch with the feminine side"...yeah right. They don't believe in soul yet they teach the feminine and the masculine side...could this become even more worse?

 

[LucyJr]

I see feminism as the strap-on version of "human rights"...in other words, a completely distorted view of what sexes equality means.
Exactly like those strap-on fantasies they use in porn...that's exactly what feminism is.
Feminism want a penis...so they can be equal to men. Pretty logic, isn't it?


I've seen feminism in real life...and its just so pathetic and ridiculous. When I hear them how they talk and all the bullshit, I just want to throw up.

 

[Korg]

Exactly like those strap-on fantasies they use in porn...that's exactly what feminism is.

 

[say what]

And I think you are a idiot...so...
Plus, you can't be a feminist male, aren't you? Let the feminists speak, the true feminists!

There are many male feminists, in fact, the fruits and outcomes of feminism isn't possible without men seeking to create social equality for women. On the flip side, there are also many women that support masculinity theory.

Your idea of feminism is constructed largely on your idea of femininity. I would read a bit of literature around feminism and feminist theory.

 

[say what]

That's all fine say what and i know that you are a big hearted person

But there is more at play here

There is linguistically a bias built into the word 'feminism'

Everything is energy including thoughts and words

'feminism' is not something most guys can rally around in the same way that most women would not want to rally around masculinism

'Equality' on the other hand is something that both sexes can rally around because it is energetically neutral

You talk about the risks of violence but there are many risks out there for people including financial ones, legal ones, child custody, stress, depression, health (mental and physical) etc

Also as you know i believe there is an agenda at work in our society; I do not believe that the government wants harmony between the sexes so i see all this through a different lens to most people

But i also know i'm right lol

I'm not saying that to be arrogant i'm just saying it in a matter of fact way because i have looked at layers to this issue that some people are not aware of and will not read about in academic feminist literature

This is why i make confident predictions that are all on the record

The economy will worsen, tensions will rise in families, the law will punish men

I think you're speaking to the political nature of feminism, and it's use to curtail support for a female vote. To me, this isn't what feminism really is. Like with anything, there are bad seeds- but the actual root of feminism is to seek equality between the sexes, which means that there are movements within it around masculinity and what it is defined as. Feminism recognizes that masculinity is often associated with aggression, dominance, and reinforces patriarchal ideals of society. It suggests that masculinity should take on a broader definition, as it limits men and incorporates social stereotypes.

I agree that feminism comes with a lot of baggage and is often misused and personified as something that it isn't. It's mostly for these reasons I separate myself from the idea of being a feminist. But I see a lot of value using it from a theoretical perspective, especially within research.

 

[dudemanbro]

Fuck feminism.

 

[muir]

I think you're speaking to the political nature of feminism, and it's use to curtail support for a female vote. To me, this isn't what feminism really is. Like with anything, there are bad seeds- but the actual root of feminism is to seek equality between the sexes, which means that there are movements within it around masculinity and what it is defined as. Feminism recognizes that masculinity is often associated with aggression, dominance, and reinforces patriarchal ideals of society. It suggests that masculinity should take on a broader definition, as it limits men and incorporates social stereotypes.

I agree that feminism comes with a lot of baggage and is often misused and personified as something that it isn't. It's mostly for these reasons I separate myself from the idea of being a feminist. But I see a lot of value using it from a theoretical perspective, especially within research.

If you think about it from a psychological aspect...as soon as someone raises a flag they have instantly set themselves apart....they have created an 'us' and a 'them'...this can be very subtle..the ways it affects peoples perceptions of themselves and others

From there everything just goes down hill. The feminism flag....it encourages a militancy and it feeds off peoples anger and dissatisfaction and points it all at the male sex

Men and women need to put up one flag that they can both stand under together: equality

and even that comes with a few provisos! ie men have some things they are naturally better at and women have some things they are naturally better at (obviously that's a generalisation)

The reality is that both sexes are being exploited and the sooner they unite in common cause the sooner we can tackle the real source of the societal distortion

Did you watch the warren farrell video i posted? Honestly...its the men of the future that are in trouble not women

If women keep banging the war drum or claiming their sole victimhood they are going to find a new crisis on their hands with their sons (if they aren't already)

 

[say what]

If you think about it from a psychological aspect...as soon as someone raises a flag they have instantly set themselves apart....they have created an 'us' and a 'them'...this can be very subtle..the ways it affects peoples perceptions of themselves and others

From there everything just goes down hill. The feminism flag....it encourages a militancy

Men and women need to put up one flag that they can both stand under together: equality

and even that comes with a few provisos! ie men have some things they are naturally better at and women have some things they are naturally better at

Before feminism (i.e., prior to the 70s), was it one unified populace? No- it was the suppression of everyone who wasn't upper class, white men.

Feminism was (and is) simply a start to break hold of this oppression, and seek equality between the sexes from a socio-cultural standpoint. This has lead to racial, age, class, sexuality, etc. movement that encourage people to standup for who they are, and give themselves a voice. Within this movement there has been extremes, but the fundamental idea is still strong and worthy of consideration.

People lump everyone into the extreme man haters - which is what is creating the segregation. They are creating a "them". Feminist say, 'we are women, we deserve to be apart of society as an equal to men'. Why should it be wrong for women to want to stand up and support their right for equal wages? The ability to attend higher education? The right to vote? The right to control their own body? Standing up and fighting for your right is exactly what we need to do- woman or not. Feminism is a way to band a group of historically disempowered individuals together, to get the strength to speak up.

 

[say what]

I see feminism as the strap-on version of "human rights"...in other words, a completely distorted view of what sexes equality means.
Exactly like those strap-on fantasies they use in porn...that's exactly what feminism is.
Feminism want a penis...so they can be equal to men. Pretty logic, isn't it?


I've seen feminism in real life...and its just so pathetic and ridiculous. When I hear them how they talk and all the bullshit, I just want to throw up.

What does equality between the sexes mean to you?

Does a penis define power? Is the amount of power a man has counted in the inches?

Do all women who want to work for a career, to support themselves, to wear a suit, want a penis?

Are women not equal to men because we don't have a penis?

This entire post of yours is seeping in sexism against men and women. I'm finding your distaste for women and men who are outside your limited definition of masculinity and femininity to be quite offensive.

 

[muir]

Before feminism (i.e., prior to the 70s), was it one unified populace? No- it was the suppression of everyone who wasn't upper class, white men.

Hmmm i don't agree with that...upper class women were living like royalty

There's that saying isn't there: 'behind every great man is a great woman'

Women have been exerting MASSIVE influence throughout history either directly or indirectly

Sure they might not have been the front man so to speak of various groups but they were there playing their part have no doubt about that!

And as for the role of frontman....depending on what the guy was doing that can actually be a dangerous part to play. men have always been exposed to more risk then women so they have payed a price throughout history for their more public face

Feminism was (and is) simply a start to break hold of this oppression, and seek equality between the sexes from a socio-cultural standpoint. This has lead to racial, age, class, sexuality, etc. movement that encourage people to standup for who they are, and give themselves a voice. Within this movement there has been extremes, but the fundamental idea is still strong and worthy of consideration.

I wouldn't use the word feminism at all

I'd say that women were achieveing equality with things like the suffragette movement (men were working under horrific work conditions at that time so they were not 'free' or 'liberated' either) followed by the 2 world wars where they did the jobs of the men whilst they were at war (getting decimated) and proved themsleves more than capable

So women were on the up and up anyway. What happened in the 60's and 70's was that marxist feminists backed by CIA money stirred up a wave of female anger and then unleashed it on men

Upto then men had not been living some amazing reality whilst women were at home scrubbing the dishes. Men were engaged in work often under harsh conditions (esp for example through things like the depression)

Women are now engaged in work and i think that perhaps now many of them are realising that men were never really that free

men were in a prison as much as women were it was just of another nature

People lump everyone into the extreme man haters - which is what is creating the segregation. They are creating a "them". Feminist say, 'we are women, we deserve to be apart of society as an equal to men'. Why should it be wrong for women to want to stand up and support their right for equal wages? The ability to attend higher education? The right to vote? The right to control their own body?

It's wrong because you either believe in equality or you don't

If you are fixated on improving life for only one group of people you don't notice when the other groups start failing

Look the same dynamic is at play here as in various conflict zones around the world. The lesson that people don;t seem to have learned yet from history is that the way to make yourself safe is to ensure that your neighbour is also comfortable and safe

If a country wars with its neighbours it can't be safe. If a society becomes unequal then the haves will not be safe from the have nots. If one sex suppresses the other then they will get some sort of blowback

Women trouncing men is not the answer and focussing on that is missing the bigger picture. Women are trying to beat men within a pre-existing game where the number of jobs haven't become anymore plentyful (especially with mechanisation and cheap foreign labour) instead of questioning if the game itself stinks

Standing up and fighting for your right is exactly what we need to do- woman or not. Feminism is a way to band a group of historically disempowered individuals together, to get the strength to speak up.

Yeah but are they speaking out against the banking families who control the economy?

No....they are speaking out against something vague (male power)

men won't be able to beat the bankers whilst women are beating them about the head with a frying pan

 

[muir]

I think women are awesome by the way....just wanna throw that out there to show the love so i don't get missunderstood!

 

[say what]

Hmmm i don't agree with that...upper class women were living like royalty

There's that saying isn't there: 'behind every great man is a great woman'

Women have been exerting MASSIVE influence throughout history either directly or indirectly

Sure they might not have been the front man so to speak of various groups but they were there playing their part have no doubt about that!

And as for the role of frontman....depending on what the guy was doing that can actually be a dangerous part to play. men have always been exposed to more risk then women so they have payed a price throughout history for their more public face



I wouldn't use the word feminism at all

I'd say that women were achieveing equality with things like the suffragette movement (men were working under horrific work conditiosn at this time so they were not 'free' or 'liberated' either) followed by the 2 world wars where they did the jobs of the men whislt they were at war and proved themsleves more than capable

So women were on the up and up anyway. What happened in the 60's and 70's was that marxist feminists backed by CIA money stirred up a wave of female anger and then unleashed it on men

Now men had not been living some amazing reality whilt women were at home scrubbing the dishes. Men were engaged in work

Women are now engaged in work and i think that perhaps now many of them are realising that men were never really that free

men were in a prison as much as women were it was just of another nature



It's wrong because you either believe in equality or you don't

If you are fixated on improving life for only one group of people you don't notice when the other groups start failing

Look the same dynamic is at play here as in various conflict zones around the world. The lesson that people don;t seem to have learned yet from history is that the way to make yourself safe is to ensure that your neighbour is also comfortable and safe

If a country wars with its neighbours it can't be safe. If a society becomes unequal then the haves will not be safe from the have nots. If one sex suppresses the other then they will get some sort of blowback

Women trouncing men is not the answer and focussing on that is missing the bigger picture. Women are trying to beat men within a pre-existing game where the number of jobs haven't become anymore plentyful (especially with mechanisation and cheap foreign labour) instead of questioning if the game itself stinks




Yeah but are they speaking out against the banking families who control the economy?

No....they are speaking out against something vague (male power)

men won't be able to beat the bankers whilst women are beating them about the head with a frying pan

But why should women wanting equality isolating or impacting men?

PS: Sorry to exclude all your other points- this just stuck out to me

 

[La Sagna]

1 w0rd: S.C.U.M.

(No im not calling feminists scum. Take a brake.)

Solanas was mentally ill so I don't think you could really use her as a good example of a feminist. It's like saying that James Holmes, the Aurora theater shooter, is a good example of a neuroscience student. In any case the SCUM Manifesto was written int 1967 and Solanas died in 1988 so it's not exactly an example of anything current in feminism.

[MENTION=1871]muir[/MENTION] , you would probably actually agree with a lot of what Solanas said in her Manifesto. She was an anarchist and had some pretty similar views about how to improve the world as you do, the difference is that she put all the emphasis on men being the ones messing up the world and it makes sense since in those days they had all the power (I would say it's mostly men who have the power now still).

 

[say what]

Hmmm i don't agree with that...upper class women were living like royalty

There's that saying isn't there: 'behind every great man is a great woman'

Women have been exerting MASSIVE influence throughout history either directly or indirectly

Sure they might not have been the front man so to speak of various groups but they were there playing their part have no doubt about that!

And as for the role of frontman....depending on what the guy was doing that can actually be a dangerous part to play. men have always been exposed to more risk then women so they have payed a price throughout history for their more public face

Yes, upper class white women did live like royalty, and have often had it a lot better than lower class and minority women. But just because you live in a fancy house, and have money, doesn't mean you're living a life of freedom.

The idea that women have power because they're influencing their husbands is just as disempowering as saying all feminists want a penis. The issue is why can't a woman have direct and open power and influence? Why is it always a frontman, and not a frontwoman?

Men have only been exposed to more risk, because women haven't been allowed to serve in the same positions of power. I'm not saying that those positions haven't limited the life of men, what I'm saying is that women haven't been allowed to be in those positions. Men have had the opportunity to choose that path- and historically women haven't had that ability.

Hmmm i don't agree with that...upper class women were living like royalty

I wouldn't use the word feminism at all

I'd say that women were achieveing equality with things like the suffragette movement (men were working under horrific work conditions at that time so they were not 'free' or 'liberated' either) followed by the 2 world wars where they did the jobs of the men whilst they were at war (getting decimated) and proved themsleves more than capable

If women were allowed to work during those times, they would have also worked in terrible conditions. This is more of a classist issue, rather than gender.

It's wrong because you either believe in equality or you don't

If you are fixated on improving life for only one group of people you don't notice when the other groups start failing

So women shouldn't voice their opinions about sexism? The other perspective is that when one disenfranchised group speaks up, it empowers other groups to do the same. Feminism is part of a broader school which seeks empowerment and equality for all. Seeking out equality is not taking away from another group.

If men think that women who want equality is taking away their rights as men, then there is something wrong.

 

[muir]

But why should women wanting equality isolating or impacting men?

PS: Sorry to exclude all your other points- this just stuck out to me

I'm not 100% sure what you're asking there?

Women getting work place eqality most definately has impacted on both men and women

It has doubled the number of potential emplyees in the work place for the fat cats to choose from thereby driving down wages so that nowadays instead of only one of the couple having to work both partners have to work

On top of that children are not getting the care they need which is what the fat cats want because they want the children raised by the state as much as possible (so that they can be influenced by the values of the state)

Men and women working more, children brought up by the state or the TV

But the point i was making about women tryign to pull themselves up by their bootstraps is that they are always going to be measuring themselves against men when they do that....so the reality is that it becomes a competition

Tell me....can you think of any competition you know of where the aims of the game is to draw level with your opponent and then stop there so that you both draw?

I can't.....all competitions are about beating your opponent

And what happens when your neighbour becomes disgruntled? Tensions and conflicts