Is it possible to have a healthy relationship with a person who has low self esteem/worth?

[slant]

So this has been bothering me:
I think feelers and maybe particularly NFs have a natural inclination to want to help people, or have a hard time saying no to people. We want to please. Maybe boundaries are difficult for those of us with this temperament. Could be due to upbringing or just nature. So I don't think it's helpful to say that it's cruel to cut people off. I think there's a bit of personal suffering injected into that statement. NFs have to work to build defenses and boundaries. What comes natural for some is quite a task for others. And tbh, no one is entitled to any sort of relationship with anyone (unless it's child/parent). Relationships are supposed to be built on mutuality.

Well said

 

[dragulagu]

I know this is not specifically geared towards me, but I don't understand this thought process.

What confuses me about it is that it seems to imply that we should be forced to talk to/interact with/spend time with people who we do not want to.

Of course there are circumstances in life where we must; like at work or family get togethers, for example.

Yet in our personal life I feel we have the right to pick who we want to associate with. Clarification would be helpful.

Fair enough, clarification: It's not the implication that you should be forced to interact with people you don't want to if you have the choice. But rather the way this is done, by forcing a cut-off
in an interaction without communicating anything, that's the bothering part. People do that more often nowadays.

For someone with low self-esteem, and this one is also taken from a personal point view, this can be pretty devastating. Not defending the guy in your situation, you're in your full right to stop that interaction,
but I do kind of "get" where he comes from. And not everyone is properly equipped with taking in social queues naturally, I had to personally learn it, in that case it's better to make it clear.

So this has been bothering me:
I think feelers and maybe particularly NFs have a natural inclination to want to help people, or have a hard time saying no to people. We want to please. Maybe boundaries are difficult for those of us with this temperament. Could be due to upbringing or just nature. So I don't think it's helpful to say that it's cruel to cut people off. I think there's a bit of personal suffering injected into that statement. NFs have to work to build defenses and boundaries. What comes natural for some is quite a task for others. And tbh, no one is entitled to any sort of relationship with anyone (unless it's child/parent). Relationships are supposed to be built on mutuality.

Spoiler: There is some personal suffering injected in the statement.

Going with some personal ego bruising I guess, don't like doing that here but ok. I had a similar situation at work. Where
the interaction went a full 180 in a span of months and it just confused the heck out of me, add misinformation / low self esteem into the mix and it got incredibly messy with the interaction, as I have a "I want to fix it" mentality. It really felt as if I was a bad person at the end...and perhaps I was, because forcing to fix a relationship is actually making it worse as you tend to cross boundaries with that way of interacting.
We eventually communicated it over and have moved on from it but it took a long time for me, especially when personal self-esteem dropped below zero. And if anything it was a strong lesson in knowing a weakness and bad side of myself. Good, that is out of my system.

I do understand what you say there though. NF's do have a natural inclination to listen/help and that means lowering boundaries.
Setting defences and boundaries is easier for the "NT" type (I guess?) as Social understanding is more a natural thing to "NF" types.

What comes natural for some is quite a task for others.
And I tend to forget to take in this point of view.

And tbh, no one is entitled to any sort of relationship with anyone (unless it's child/parent). Relationships are supposed to be built on mutuality.
Yep

 

[slant]

Fair enough, clarification: It's not the implication that you should be forced to interact with people you don't want to if you have the choice. But rather the way this is done, by forcing a cut-off
in an interaction without communicating anything, that's the bothering part. People do that more often nowadays.

For someone with low self-esteem, and this one is also taken from a personal point view, this can be pretty devastating. Not defending the guy in your situation, you're in your full right to stop that interaction,
but I do kind of "get" where he comes from. And not everyone is properly equipped with taking in social queues naturally, I had to personally learn it, in that case it's better to make it clear.

Spoiler: There is some personal suffering injected in the statement.

Going with some personal ego bruising I guess, don't like doing that here but ok. I had a similar situation at work. Where
the interaction went a full 180 in a span of months and it just confused the heck out of me, add misinformation / low self esteem into the mix and it got incredibly messy with the interaction, as I have a "I want to fix it" mentality. It really felt as if I was a bad person at the end...and perhaps I was, because forcing to fix a relationship is actually making it worse as you tend to cross boundaries with that way of interacting.
We eventually communicated it over and have moved on from it but it took a long time for me, especially when personal self-esteem dropped below zero. And if anything it was a strong lesson in knowing a weakness and bad side of myself. Good, that is out of my system.

I do understand what you say there though. NF's do have a natural inclination to listen/help and that means lowering boundaries.
Setting defences and boundaries is easier for the "NT" type (I guess?) as Social understanding is more a natural thing to "NF" types.

What comes natural for some is quite a task for others.
And I tend to forget to take in this point of view.

And tbh, no one is entitled to any sort of relationship with anyone (unless it's child/parent). Relationships are supposed to be built on mutuality.
Yep

Oh well, I didn't just ignore him. I explicitly told him I would prefer no further contact. I always communicate directly and clearly. I don't just "ghost".

 

[dragulagu]

Oh well, I didn't just ignore him. I explicitly told him I would prefer no further contact. I always communicate directly and clearly. I don't just "ghost".

Ok, then I have misunderstood the situation.

 

[KimChiRx]

I should stop with the devil's advocate bullshit play though, doesn't work well for the sake of discussion.

maybe not for the sake of discussion, but you are using care in it because cutting off too soon can cut off a branch you’re on. Kind of like how if we don’t mature ourselves and extend the compassion as an active choice it creates issues. I wouldn’t let your style stop you from playing your own part in what is needed in the whole. Eph 4

Yet in our personal life I feel we have the right to pick who we want to associate with.

He’s running through his process just as you were on a process when you posted this question and was being too hard on yourself and the responsibility of the choice you needed to make for yourself. You both seemed to have sorted it out really well as of the latest posts I’ve seen from you both.

 

[slant]

maybe not for the sake of discussion, but you are using care in it because cutting off too soon can cut off a branch you’re on. Kind of like how if we don’t mature ourselves and extend the compassion as an active choice it creates issues. I wouldn’t let your style stop you from playing your own part in what is needed in the whole. Eph 4



He’s running through his process just as you were on a process when you posted this question and was being too hard on yourself and the responsibility of the choice you needed to make for yourself. You both seemed to have sorted it out really well as of the latest posts I’ve seen from you both.

When you talk say he who are you referencing I'm confused

 

[KimChiRx]

So this has been bothering me:
I think feelers and maybe particularly NFs have a natural inclination to want to help people, or have a hard time saying no to people. We want to please. Maybe boundaries are difficult for those of us with this temperament. Could be due to upbringing or just nature. So I don't think it's helpful to say that it's cruel to cut people off. I think there's a bit of personal suffering injected into that statement. NFs have to work to build defenses and boundaries. What comes natural for some is quite a task for others. And tbh, no one is entitled to any sort of relationship with anyone (unless it's child/parent). Relationships are supposed to be built on mutuality.

I love this idea because it’s absolutely true that feelers have a hard time with relationships because of our desire to help. But this is mostly a problem that comes with extroverted feelers to take in what another is saying and feeling without judgement. Introverted feeling I’ve noticed started with what feelings are already within that person then works it’s way out to what someone else may or may not feel. So I disagree slightly because thinking types still have a capacity towards compassion and kindness even though it’s not their dominant or secondary mainstay. Just as for feeling types it’s not dominant either. So either way or in all ways it’s seen, every person is different and not less than another but serving a different cause or help to each person on a different need when used properly and within the gifts that has been given.


I guess the best way I can explain that and wrap it up is a mantra of sorts: “I’m not for everyone. That doesn’t make me bad. Not everyone is meant for ME. That doesn’t make them bad. We’re different and serving a purpose when within our best selves and that is good. It’s okay to respect eachother.”

 

[KimChiRx]

When you talk say he who are you referencing I'm confused

I saw you getting upset. Felt it was time to clarify before I finished reading the conversation. His process of thinking naturally works differently from yours. He’s automatically thinking where as you feel your feelings first then work your way out. You’re both going through your process and feeling each other inferior processes but not either if you are worse or wrong compared to eachother just serving a different use.

 

[slant]

I saw you getting upset. Felt it was time to clarify before I finished reading the conversation. His process of thinking naturally works differently from yours. He’s automatically thinking where as you feel your feelings first then work your way out. You’re both going through your process and feeling each other inferior processes but not either if you are worse or wrong compared to eachother just serving a different use.

I don't think you know what's going on in my head. I appreciate the attempt at an explanation but I was not feeling upset.

 

[KimChiRx]

I don't think you know what's going on in my head. I appreciate the attempt at an explanation but I was not feeling upset.

I tend to have these issues with Ixfps. It’s cool if you feel that way. I know you don’t like anger and feel it isn’t justified in anyway but it’s okay to feel that way and respond to it how you feel is necessary. I mean that it’s a natural knee jerk reaction to feel defensive. I already know that me being in my best self will cause you to go into a loop, so don’t worry about it. I think it’s okay to see multiple possibilities to everything than just one that is helpful in specific moments of time.

 

[slant]

I tend to have these issues with Ixfps. It’s cool if you feel that way. I know you don’t like anger and feel it isn’t justified in anyway but it’s okay to feel that way and respond to it how you feel is necessary. I mean that it’s a natural knee jerk reaction to feel defensive. I already know that me being in my best self will cause you to go into a loop, so don’t worry about it. I think it’s okay to see multiple possibilities to everything than just one that is helpful in specific moments of time.

Definitely

 

[acd]

I love this idea because it’s absolutely true that feelers have a hard time with relationships because of our desire to help. But this is mostly a problem that comes with extroverted feelers to take in what another is saying and feeling without judgement. Introverted feeling I’ve noticed started with what feelings are already within that person then works it’s way out to what someone else may or may not feel. So I disagree slightly because thinking types still have a capacity towards compassion and kindness even though it’s not their dominant or secondary mainstay. Just as for feeling types it’s not dominant either. So either way or in all ways it’s seen, every person is different and not less than another but serving a different cause or help to each person on a different need when used properly and within the gifts that has been given.


I guess the best way I can explain that and wrap it up is a mantra of sorts: “I’m not for everyone. That doesn’t make me bad. Not everyone is meant for ME. That doesn’t make them bad. We’re different and serving a purpose when within our best selves and that is good. It’s okay to respect eachother.”

I don't think it's an Fe thing primarily.
I think it's more typical for feeling types to go through this. Thinking types can too but I think they are much more discriminating with who they open up to, let into their lives and who they care about. I think feelers will put up with a lot of shit that is not good for them before asserting their boundaries.

So my whole point was that when an NF starts to identify and assert boundaries, it's not helpful to say they are being cruel. Usually we've exhausted ourselves and need to establish those boundaries for our own well-being.

I like your mantra.

 

[Matty]

I'm struggling with this again.

I feel like an element of it is that I'm a very positive, happy person and compliment people and try hard to see where they are coming from.

I recently had someone from my past that I knew 3 years ago reach out to me and the more we talked the more disturbed I was.

He said things like

"I think about you a lot"
"I feel like you really understand me"

So on and so on. He confessed feelings for me and I put him down gently. I had to cut off contact with him because I never thought of him at all in these 3 years; I did not feel close to him at all.

Which makes me wonder how can people feel that close to me when I feel nothing for them at all? I am learning when this happens the kind thing to do is to walk away from the situation.

This is another person who has extremely low self esteem and I recognize it but they're almost using me as a self esteem boost. In this weird way, loving me and if they could earn my love would make them worth something.

It has been particularly disturbing because I have done the same thing in the past and it made me realize how the other person must have felt about my behavior. Further, I feel very disgusted instead of flattered by these people's affection. It makes me feel scared that somebody could think they were so close to me when from my perspective they don't even know me.

Part of this i think is me being nice to people who I don't necessarily feel a connection with and letting them get to close to me. It's hard to draw a line between being nice and setting boundaries. I feel mixed about not wanting to be friends with these people because there's nothing inherently wrong with them, the friendships just feel one sided and I feel drained after spending time with them instead of good like I do with my other friends. And often these people when you see boundaries get upset because it reenforces their victim mentality

"See I told you nobody likes me"

But that's not my problem and I don't know how these people are going to grow unless people are honest with them

Attraction seems sort of random and arbitrary most of the time, so I wouldn't assume people with low self esteem are attracted to you because they have low self esteem.

In terms of the particular situation, it just seems like it took him years to test the waters, whether there was any reciprocity of feeling, when for others that testing is done in mere seconds through subtle flirtation. The brooding on feelings for a long time just loads them with angst, which is also repulsive, but hardly a moral fault.

I've experienced similar situations from past acquaintances. I personally don't find them repulsive, but just an unfortunate quirk: some people's emotional expression just buffers for a long time.

 

[slant]

Attraction seems sort of random and arbitrary most of the time, so I wouldn't assume people with low self esteem are attracted to you because they have low self esteem.

In terms of the particular situation, it just seems like it took him years to test the waters, whether there was any reciprocity of feeling, when for others that testing is done in mere seconds through subtle flirtation. The brooding on feelings for a long time just loads them with angst, which is also repulsive, but hardly a moral fault.

I've experienced similar situations from past acquaintances. I personally don't find them repulsive, but just an unfortunate quirk: some people's emotional expression just buffers for a long time.

I think it's different for women. To know a man who you weren't that close to three years ago has been thinking about you despite having no contact and believes you're closer than you are is automatically threatening. Thankfully he's not the type to do anything but yes it is scary to me and I don't like it.

 

[Matty]

I think it's different for women. To know a man who you weren't that close to three years ago has been thinking about you despite having no contact and believes you're closer than you are is automatically threatening. Thankfully he's not the type to do anything but yes it is scary to me and I don't like it.

For some reason that made a random thought pop into my head: some men also find unwanted male attraction threatening, and if they're more assertive than turbulent in temperament, their response can be misinterpreted as homophobia.

 

[SpecialEdition]

I think it's different for women. To know a man who you weren't that close to three years ago has been thinking about you despite having no contact and believes you're closer than you are is automatically threatening. Thankfully he's not the type to do anything but yes it is scary to me and I don't like it.

I absolutely hate when this happens. It's so uncomfortable and strangely I have mostly had this come from men who have had really low self esteem who somehow attached themselves to me, and upon trying to untangle myself from it they turned on me. Like, dude, I don't owe you fuck all, who do you think you are?

I find that when things like this go south it's because they actually have zero respect for me as a person and how I feel and their expectations of what I should give to them are so high and so out of bounds that it makes it virtually impossible to move on in that friendship or acquaintance or whatever it was before. I have cut MANY people off this way and do not feel one ounce of sorrow about it. They can get fucked. But not by me.

 

[Wildfire]

I had a stalker and I'm thinking this might be an extreme example of what's actually being discussed in this thread. It started off as friendship and I was under the impression that we both thought there might be potential for something more. But it wasn't long before he got way out ahead of me and I found that he had completely different ideas about what we were to each other and where we were going. I tried hard to redirect it and salvage a healthy friendship but that became impossible. The whole thing took the meaning of objectification to a new level.

Anyway, I can really relate to this...

I find that when things like this go south it's because they actually have zero respect for me as a person and how I feel and their expectations of what I should give to them are so high and so out of bounds that it makes it virtually impossible to move on in that friendship or acquaintance or whatever it was before. I have cut MANY people off this way and do not feel one ounce of sorrow about it. They can get fucked. But not by me.

 

[KimChiRx]

I don't think it's an Fe thing primarily.
I think it's more typical for feeling types to go through this. Thinking types can too but I think they are much more discriminating with who they open up to, let into their lives and who they care about. I think feelers will put up with a lot of shit that is not good for them before asserting their boundaries.

So my whole point was that when an NF starts to identify and assert boundaries, it's not helpful to say they are being cruel. Usually we've exhausted ourselves and need to establish those boundaries for our own well-being.

I like your mantra.

It’s definitely not being cruel. It’s definitely more than that. For an infp it would be a completely different feeling for an infj to have to assert that boundary. For one it’s that there’s an ingrained feeing of what do I do or do not like and pushing that outward where as what is there and what is felt from another is already picked up automatically and the pain is already felt with that person.
As for turbulence that’s a whole different other story that causes more issues for each separate person in different ways depending on what wasn’t okay in childhood. You never can say what a person wasn’t allowed to do then and whether it was practically anything at all.

As for homophobia, it’s mostly a theory how people view sexuality in general based off of the dynamics that are within parenting and childhood to begin with as well. I do believe there’s an attachment theory on that and I’m pretty sure that plays a part in it and doesn’t have to intend any hate.

I hope you’re not being stalked btw. That’s absolute crap. I hope the guy wasn’t abusing you in any type of way. Literally got into an argument with an infp who was abusing me as well, so I get how there’s misunderstanding between the types and that’s why I brought it up. I hope you’re not trying to use any introverted intuition in that case to foresee any bad outcome of sorts :/ really wasn’t intending to stir anybody up in it.

and yes, I’ve been called cruel for putting my foot down before, too. You learn that people think differently, but respect is most definitely universal.

 

[Pin]

Honestly, many of my attempts to pursue a relationship have been kind of half-assed because I have never felt good-enough for most of my life, and honestly, I still don't feel good enough now.

I've always been hard on myself because I didn't want to end up like my parents.

 

[slant]

Honestly, many of my attempts to pursue a relationship have been kind of half-assed because I have never felt good-enough for most of my life, and honestly, I still don't feel good enough now.

I've always been hard on myself because I didn't want to end up like my parents.

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