ISIS are branding Christians

[just me]

It is but its a couple of other things too.

Its totally risk free and lame, its the same reason people attack christian fundamentalists rather than muslim fundamentalists, what's the worst that's going to happen? In the former they'll do something stupid, which will make them seem stupid in the eyes of anyone pretty much, like spout a lot of flat earth stuff or complain about prayers in schools, the in the case of the later you could end up with a dagger through you as that Dutch artist discovered to his detriment/death.

Its also kind of irrelevent too, who cares what oil has to do about it? If it actually leads to an intervention and saves some christians and minorities, ie non-combatants in any sense of the word, from ending up in the latest mass grave atrocity pit then that's just great in my book.

The standard liberal or conspiracy theorising responses to real world terror are sort of sweet and naive if you ask me, most of the hold out the hope in one shape or another that there's an economic, rational, almost ordered and calculated thing going on, adopting the right policy will sort it all out, in reality there's no logic or rhymn or reason to sectarianism, people just want to hate and fight for the tribe, they could give a shit about what rational concessions or appeasement you're considering to answer their grievances, if could ever satisfy them they'd have others.

Nail on the head. Hope ends when it knocks on YOUR door. As long as it is knocking elsewhere, most folk don't even care enough to do anything but watch it on the news and complain.

The absolute LAST THING I would do as a president would be to let someone know I'm coming. World leaders act stupefied when dealing with radicals that take what they want and kill the rest.

Interesting study in history is how empires come and go. Great leaders usually rule, and people are glad to see it. Change the man? Everything eventually changes. Let the people have their way? There is a fall coming. Why? It is like you said: " people just want to hate and fight for the tribe, they could give a shit about what rational concessions or appeasement you're considering to answer their grievances, if could ever satisfy them they'd have others. " That, my friend, explains why one cannot make deals with the neighborhood clan. Glad all countries haven't slid down the scale that low yet.

 

[just me]

Overheard someone say, "Why bother with them if it is Muslims fighting Muslims? Isn't that a win-win situation?"

When they act like idiots, as ISIS are doing, I can see where it might be best to let them kill each other. Problem is all Muslims don't feel like killing each other. Does the world have an authority on the Quran? Is someone out there able to explain how ISIS is acting like end-time foretold scriptures? Can that same person change what has been written? Are the end-times going to be fighting Muslims? Can someone put it in words and speak it in authority to the rest of the world that is waiting to hear it?

 

[just me]

God forbid.

 

[Lark]

The problem is though…it is true…we are a greedy western capitalist nation that is holding a lot of the world under it’s thumb to gain and maintain leverage.

I dont think I'd trade US hegemony for any of the dictators and despots who ARE the alternatives.

As I've said before too, the foreign policy critic is irrelevent to political muslims and others like them, your enemies enemy is not your friend, those guys despise more than simply capitalism and unfair trade, if they've ever given that a thought which is unlikely besides objecting to it all on the basis that it doesnt conform to sharia law.

 

[Lark]

BREAKING: Suspect Identified in James Foley Beheading Is Failed Rapper

British Intelligence is actively hunting this 23-year-old former Londoner.

Abdel-Majed Abdel Bary, identified as James Foley's beheader, rapped under the name L Jinny.
Photo Credit: via YouTube

August 25, 2014 |

This article first appeared in the Sydney Morning Herald.
Read the entire article with video here.

British intelligence agencies MI5 and MI6 have identified the man suspected of the horrific beheading of American journalist James Foley, according to British media reports.

The hooded man with an English accent is believed to be 23-year-old Abdel-Majed Abdel Bary, known to fellow Islamic State militants as Jihadi John.
The former rapper left his family home in an affluent west London suburb last year to fight in the civil war in Syria.

In early August he tweeted a photo of himself wearing military camouflage and a black hood, while holding a severed head in his left hand.
British SAS forces are hunting Foley's killer, using a range of high-tech equipment to track him down and potentially free other hostages.

The Mail on Sunday is reporting that a "significant force" of SAS personnel has been deployed to northern Iraq over the past two days, joining local units fighting the Islamic State. They have fanned out into four-man teams, accompanying Iraqi and Kurdish troops in an effort to find British jihadists.

The Sunday Times reports that Bary is the key focus of the manhunt. He is one of the British jihadists referred to by former hostages as the Beatles because of their British accents. The two others were called "George" and "Ringo".

The two other Britons suspected of involvement in the crime are Aine Davis, a former drug dealer who converted to Islam, and Razul Islam, who is believed to have joined the terrorist group that murdered Foley.

Bary is the son of an Egyptian-born militant who is awaiting trial on terrorism charges in Manhattan, due to his alleged involvement in the bombing of US embassies in Kenya and Tanzania in 1998.

Before leaving the family home to fight in Syria, Bary was an aspiring rapper known as L Jinny whose music was played on one of Britain's most popular radio stations, BBC Radio 1.

Recordings of his songs will prove vital to the investigating team, with experts using voice recognition technology to match his voice with that of the man who brutally decapitated Mr Foley.

Bary made a number of music videos for his songs, with titles such as Flying High, Dreamer and Overdose.

It is believed he was indoctrinated by an Islamic preacher named Anjem Choudary who persuaded him to join the fight in Syria.

What a wanker.

For all their violence ISIS are pathetic. A pathetic death cult.

 

[Skarekrow]

I dont think I'd trade US hegemony for any of the dictators and despots who ARE the alternatives.

As I've said before too, the foreign policy critic is irrelevent to political muslims and others like them, your enemies enemy is not your friend, those guys despise more than simply capitalism and unfair trade, if they've ever given that a thought which is unlikely besides objecting to it all on the basis that it doesnt conform to sharia law.

Two wrongs still don’t make a right the last time I checked. Just because the US isn’t as bad as ISIL (arguable) in the eyes of the average American or even through the eyes of someone in the UK doesn’t justify immoral and negative actions.
Also, just because I don’t wish ISIL to succeed in their mission of death doesn’t mean I cannot see them as people who have been shaped by our society today into something we find distasteful and against our western values.
They are still people…they may be wrong…even horribly so, but there are reasons for such extremism and a lot of it has to do with the past and current actions of the US in the region. They wouldn’t even exist without the meddling of the US and other western nations trying to extract the oil and riches from the “dumb” indigenous Muslims. When they don’t go along with what we want…we force them somehow.

 

[Skarekrow]

What a wanker.

For all their violence ISIS are pathetic. A pathetic death cult.

What is going on with the Muslim slums in Britain that is breeding this type of person?

 

[just me]

Two wrongs still don’t make a right the last time I checked. Just because the US isn’t as bad as ISIL (arguable) in the eyes of the average American or even through the eyes of someone in the UK doesn’t justify immoral and negative actions.
Also, just because I don’t wish ISIL to succeed in their mission of death doesn’t mean I cannot see them as people who have been shaped by our society today into something we find distasteful and against our western values.
They are still people…they may be wrong…even horribly so, but there are reasons for such extremism and a lot of it has to do with the past and current actions of the US in the region. They wouldn’t even exist without the meddling of the US and other western nations trying to extract the oil and riches from the “dumb” indigenous Muslims. When they don’t go along with what we want…we force them somehow.

They were shaped with lies. Haven't you read ANYTHING? Their passports need all be revoked.

 

[just me]

What is going on with the Muslim slums in Britain that is breeding this type of person?

It's called radical spiritual leaders preying on the poor.

 

[just me]

The devil cometh not but to steal, kill, and destroy. Poor, poor Lucifer. What were they doing to him to make him the way he is? BS!

What about poor, poor John? What has he accomplished? Went to a foreign land for lies, then was talked into beheading a man. Poor, poor John.

 

[Lark]

What is going on with the Muslim slums in Britain that is breeding this type of person?

Always the optimist, blame the slums and not the muslims, the reality is that these people are not disgruntled and misguided/misinformed class warriors labouring under a false consciousness who could be won over to liberalism with the right message or education, a lot of them ARE the bigots of your nightmares, sectarian without giving a damn, thrilled to be "playing" modern warfare, grand theft etc. for real.

There is NO liberal fix to this problem I'm afraid, these are not people you can recruit, outreach to, build bridges with. They're people you need to challenge, confront and stop. As much as that's generally disliked, especially when they're not the typical hate figures for the left, ie rich, suited, bankers and financial overlords.

 

[Skarekrow]

Always the optimist, blame the slums and not the muslims, the reality is that these people are not disgruntled and misguided/misinformed class warriors labouring under a false consciousness who could be won over to liberalism with the right message or education, a lot of them ARE the bigots of your nightmares, sectarian without giving a damn, thrilled to be "playing" modern warfare, grand theft etc. for real.

There is NO liberal fix to this problem I'm afraid, these are not people you can recruit, outreach to, build bridges with. They're people you need to challenge, confront and stop. As much as that's generally disliked, especially when they're not the typical hate figures for the left, ie rich, suited, bankers and financial overlords.

Seriously…enough with the word “liberal" getting thrown around.
I don’t think that such people can rehabilitated…but there is a society that is breeding the Muslim extremist…it is a combination of the slum and the Muslim. If some of these people had more opportunities when they were children or had a family that was better off, or if people even just looked at them like they were not only human beings, but equals…I think there would be a drastic reduction.
You can give up and continue the circle of death and stupidity if you wish, but I will continue to believe that things can be changed for the better…those communities got this way because society ignored the poverty of others and allowed hatred and resentment to be bred…things can also be corrected…and just because the problem exists now and seems difficult to fix, should not be a reason not to try.
Call me an optimist…doesn’t matter…I’m just who I am…I don’t have to impress or get the approval of anyone thank you.

 

[Skarekrow]

[video=youtube;ioUS_xwFfXw]https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=ioUS_xwFfXw[/video]

 

[just me]

I get to work with the poor quite regularly. Telling them to do something, one can just look away when they decide to do it another way that takes three times the time. Ready to leave after seven hours, I work another seven hours when they have gone. It obviously works on my attitude when I look up and they are nowhere to be found. They say things to try and smooth things out, but that makes it worse. Whatever their situation, killing innocent civilians on purpose makes them the scum of the earth. They don't like the way things are? They don't help much now, so what can they do later?

Syria has been a killing field far too long. Arab spring. We can do better. Yada yada yada.

 

[Severina]

I'm a new INFJ. Nice thread. I agree with Lark throughout this thread. Having lived in the Middle East and having been born in Pakistan, I think I may carry a unique perspective here. Neither we (the US) nor any other force or country or group will ever change Islam, especially the many and varied radical arms of this hydra. If you read the Koran...not just the white washed public portions....you will clearly see that if you are not a Muslim you are an infidel and must be killed. You have an obligation to rid the earth of infidels. Sadly, few people in the US and our government have lived within the culture to understand the nature of the problem. We could bomb them until the middle east sands turn to glass and nothing will change. They hate us and what we stand for. We can't understand their culture or mindset either. As far as I'm concerned they have always fought each other for hundreds of years.....it is all they know. The US as the "big Satan" is always the plum target, but in the meantime Israel and other moderate Arab groups and countries will do just fine to war with. Not all Muslim's educated or uneducated hate us, but many do. We need to stop meddling in the Middle East affairs....aside from support of Israel....and let them do what they have always done...kill each other. Believe me I have seen things, horrible things, while I lived in Muslim countries. Once you see the total disregard for life, especially life different than you in any way, you then begin to understand the dynamics in that part of the world. The cruelty to their fellow human beings, cruelty to children, cruelty to women, and cruelty to animals is astounding. Yes, it is a different culture, but it none the less shocking. Once the shock wears off you just stand back, cry, shake your head and pray for the whole Middle East. This problem will be here long after the youngest of our children has flown from this earth. It is a sad state of affairs to be sure, and a dangerous one, but it won't change. This is a culture that understands one thing only (from a history of a tribal culture), and that is strength. Pure and simple. The biggest and meanest wins. I would curtail Muslim immigration to this country and stay out of their politics and let them, sadly, do what they have always done...kill themselves.

 

[muir]

I'm a new INFJ. Nice thread. I agree with Lark throughout this thread. Having lived in the Middle East and having been born in Pakistan, I think I may carry a unique perspective here. Neither we (the US) nor any other force or country or group will ever change Islam, especially the many and varied radical arms of this hydra. If you read the Koran...not just the white washed public portions....you will clearly see that if you are not a Muslim you are an infidel and must be killed. You have an obligation to rid the earth of infidels. Sadly, few people in the US and our government have lived within the culture to understand the nature of the problem. We could bomb them until the middle east sands turn to glass and nothing will change. They hate us and what we stand for. We can't understand their culture or mindset either. As far as I'm concerned they have always fought each other for hundreds of years.....it is all they know. The US as the "big Satan" is always the plum target, but in the meantime Israel and other moderate Arab groups and countries will do just fine to war with. Not all Muslim's educated or uneducated hate us, but many do. We need to stop meddling in the Middle East affairs....aside from support of Israel....and let them do what they have always done...kill each other. Believe me I have seen things, horrible things, while I lived in Muslim countries. Once you see the total disregard for life, especially life different than you in any way, you then begin to understand the dynamics in that part of the world. The cruelty to their fellow human beings, cruelty to children, cruelty to women, and cruelty to animals is astounding. Yes, it is a different culture, but it none the less shocking. Once the shock wears off you just stand back, cry, shake your head and pray for the whole Middle East. This problem will be here long after the youngest of our children has flown from this earth. It is a sad state of affairs to be sure, and a dangerous one, but it won't change. This is a culture that understands one thing only (from a history of a tribal culture), and that is strength. Pure and simple. The biggest and meanest wins. I would curtail Muslim immigration to this country and stay out of their politics and let them, sadly, do what they have always done...kill themselves.

I've seen horrible things in non muslim countries

The US has littered the middle east with military bases. It's the presence of US military forces and of US zionist aggression and invasions of muslim lands that has stirred up all the hatred. Learn your history eg One of the main points of anger with ISIS is the pickot-sykes agreement and the main complaint of Al qaeda was the presence of US military in muslim lands

The west created this monster and the west is fuelling it and by the 'west' i mean the zionists who control the banking/energy/military industrial complex nexus

trying to blame muslims would be like going upto someone and slapping them in the face and then accusing them of being the aggressor when they then slap you back...that's delusional

Its got nothing to do with being 'liberal' its all perfectly logical

How many muslim military bases are there in the west? NONE

How many western military bases are there in muslim lands? SCORES

We're stealing their oil, murdering their women and children, overthrowing their democratcially elected governments, destabilising their countries, stopping development through sanctions and war and propping up dictators and un-democratic royal families

It's not rocket science...all you have to do to understand anger in the middle east is to use your head

Also the stealing of palestinean land is obviously going to anger people as well...how would you like it if a bunch of muslims came over and violently annexed a chunk of the US? you wouldn't like it would you? No so use your head

 

[Lark]

Seriously…enough with the word “liberal" getting thrown around.
I don’t think that such people can rehabilitated…but there is a society that is breeding the Muslim extremist…it is a combination of the slum and the Muslim. If some of these people had more opportunities when they were children or had a family that was better off, or if people even just looked at them like they were not only human beings, but equals…I think there would be a drastic reduction.
You can give up and continue the circle of death and stupidity if you wish, but I will continue to believe that things can be changed for the better…those communities got this way because society ignored the poverty of others and allowed hatred and resentment to be bred…things can also be corrected…and just because the problem exists now and seems difficult to fix, should not be a reason not to try.
Call me an optimist…doesn’t matter…I’m just who I am…I don’t have to impress or get the approval of anyone thank you.

I think its important that you understand what I'm meaning when I use the words I do, I'm not using the word liberal in any prejorative sense at all, I'm using it as a straight forward descriptive sense. The same goes for optimist.

If all it took to neutralise the threats of extremism was redistribution of wealth, the improvement of social conditions and recognition and respect then we would have seen a gradual disappearence of extremism, most definitely in the prosperous western world, and over the historical timescale definitely. That hasnt happened so I am unconvinced it has anything to do with that at all but I do believe that this assists the people who are grievance prospectors and escalators who seek to recruit people as "assets" for their "cause".

That's the easy fix, I'm not saying it should be ignored, I actually favour it for very different reasons which are nothing to do with extremism at all but I definitely do not believe that it is a fix for extremism at all and it may actually assist the extremists.

Bin Laden was a billionaire oil legacy, all the people directing these campaigns are similar, ISIS was, rightly I think, initially assessed by some western liberal newspapers such as the guardian as an incredibly successful criminal enterprise but that isnt getting across to many of the aggrieved recruits, they dont believe they are fighting for Hans Gruber, they think they are fighting for Che Guevara and a lot of the script you've learned and are deploying here supports that.

Although I'll be honest, I think excitement and wanting to live a life less ordinary, seeking fortune and glory, engaging in heroism, as they understand it, and hero worship is probably behind the motives of the individual raw recruits.

 

[Lark]

I'm a new INFJ. Nice thread. I agree with Lark throughout this thread. Having lived in the Middle East and having been born in Pakistan, I think I may carry a unique perspective here. Neither we (the US) nor any other force or country or group will ever change Islam, especially the many and varied radical arms of this hydra. If you read the Koran...not just the white washed public portions....you will clearly see that if you are not a Muslim you are an infidel and must be killed. You have an obligation to rid the earth of infidels. Sadly, few people in the US and our government have lived within the culture to understand the nature of the problem. We could bomb them until the middle east sands turn to glass and nothing will change. They hate us and what we stand for. We can't understand their culture or mindset either. As far as I'm concerned they have always fought each other for hundreds of years.....it is all they know. The US as the "big Satan" is always the plum target, but in the meantime Israel and other moderate Arab groups and countries will do just fine to war with. Not all Muslim's educated or uneducated hate us, but many do. We need to stop meddling in the Middle East affairs....aside from support of Israel....and let them do what they have always done...kill each other. Believe me I have seen things, horrible things, while I lived in Muslim countries. Once you see the total disregard for life, especially life different than you in any way, you then begin to understand the dynamics in that part of the world. The cruelty to their fellow human beings, cruelty to children, cruelty to women, and cruelty to animals is astounding. Yes, it is a different culture, but it none the less shocking. Once the shock wears off you just stand back, cry, shake your head and pray for the whole Middle East. This problem will be here long after the youngest of our children has flown from this earth. It is a sad state of affairs to be sure, and a dangerous one, but it won't change. This is a culture that understands one thing only (from a history of a tribal culture), and that is strength. Pure and simple. The biggest and meanest wins. I would curtail Muslim immigration to this country and stay out of their politics and let them, sadly, do what they have always done...kill themselves.

Thanks for posting, I'm glad you found some grounds for agreement with what I was saying and I certainly agree with you about the cruelty and might makes right ethos which reigns there and is reflected in (codified even) within the cornerstone cultural texts.

I do believe in change though and I definitely dont believe in ignoring the situation, I live in NI which struggles still with the legacies of a long history of sectarianism of the western variety and there's a lot of tendencies not too different to those of the Islamic culture you describe, particularly the cruelty, and the communities which oppose it in some ways have begun to emulate it and treat it with jealousy rather than disdain (for instance in NI republican youths instituting new "traditional" bonfires like those of protestant youths in neighbouring areas which they clash violently with).

This is something at root which I think concerns all societies and is the riddle of history which mankind is yet to solve. The might makes right, the creation of an "other" which is evil personified, the demand for a perpetual mobilisation and militancy, perpetual struggle, even the book burning and popularly endorsed censorship and authoritarianism, its all been seen before, fascism, nazism, communism, there are affinities which are underlying or underpinning it all.

 

[just me]

I'm a new INFJ. Nice thread. I agree with Lark throughout this thread. Having lived in the Middle East and having been born in Pakistan, I think I may carry a unique perspective here. Neither we (the US) nor any other force or country or group will ever change Islam, especially the many and varied radical arms of this hydra. If you read the Koran...not just the white washed public portions....you will clearly see that if you are not a Muslim you are an infidel and must be killed. You have an obligation to rid the earth of infidels. Sadly, few people in the US and our government have lived within the culture to understand the nature of the problem. We could bomb them until the middle east sands turn to glass and nothing will change. They hate us and what we stand for. We can't understand their culture or mindset either. As far as I'm concerned they have always fought each other for hundreds of years.....it is all they know. The US as the "big Satan" is always the plum target, but in the meantime Israel and other moderate Arab groups and countries will do just fine to war with. Not all Muslim's educated or uneducated hate us, but many do. We need to stop meddling in the Middle East affairs....aside from support of Israel....and let them do what they have always done...kill each other. Believe me I have seen things, horrible things, while I lived in Muslim countries. Once you see the total disregard for life, especially life different than you in any way, you then begin to understand the dynamics in that part of the world. The cruelty to their fellow human beings, cruelty to children, cruelty to women, and cruelty to animals is astounding. Yes, it is a different culture, but it none the less shocking. Once the shock wears off you just stand back, cry, shake your head and pray for the whole Middle East. This problem will be here long after the youngest of our children has flown from this earth. It is a sad state of affairs to be sure, and a dangerous one, but it won't change. This is a culture that understands one thing only (from a history of a tribal culture), and that is strength. Pure and simple. The biggest and meanest wins. I would curtail Muslim immigration to this country and stay out of their politics and let them, sadly, do what they have always done...kill themselves.

The US is not the lone place in the earth where Muslims can be told to stay out of. Welcome, and I agree with much of what you are saying. I think our administration has been obviously helping them.


Newsflash: they are not the baddest or the meanest, either. Their clerics stand on their soapboxes and lie to them, recruit them, and send them to wreak havoc on the world. Tough times call for tough decisions. Israel cannot fight the world alone. Putin acts like someone else is pulling his strings all of a sudden. Greed and control have taken over his reasoning. How would you propose we rid the US of Muslims? Someone will come along that knows how to deal with this before it gets out of hand. It cannot be done over the internet.

 

[just me]

"Are those who know equal to those who know not?" …} [39: 9].