Islam is a Religion of Peace

[acd]

I don't think it would necessarily be productive to do so, in this instance! If you want i can answer by PM?

Well you did bring it up in the thread.

 

[Saru Inc]

When islam first began to grow it was barely even discearned by the byzantine authorities because there were so many 'heretical' forms of christianity around the fringes (and probably within) the greek speaking world. Many different perspectives were being preached by stylites and there were many different sects

Islam took the practise of praying 5 times a day from the syriac christian church, it venerated sites like jerusalem that was holy to christians, it sees itself as a branch on the same abrahamic tree as christianity and therefore it sees its god as the same god as the god of the christians

Islam sees jesus as a prophet (but it believes the gospels have been corrupted.....a view that some christians might even sympathise with)

Islam sees muhammed as the latest (and last) in a line of prophets

So really we are seeing an argument over the supremacy of prophets

The muslims don't disagree with the message of jesus its just that they have put forward their own prophet as a cap on the line of prophets

Lets face it there's nothing like having your own prophet to put your people on the map is there?

Perhaps a more comparitive approach would be better? Sure its good to listen to the perspective of these prophets but what about listening to the message of other cultures as well after all we all share the human legacy of the collective unconscious....this is the link that binds us all together

Every culture has its own stylistic quirks (sometimes that is created by the climate of the place its from eg dress, architecture, music whatever) but are there underlying trends.....no thats a horrible word.....underlying truths that can be discearned from all of these perspectives whether from individual prophets or from myths, legends and other products of the unconscious mind?

Perhaps a person today on an ayahuasca trip might see something that a prophet of the past has seen and glimpse a connection that spans all of us
@Kgal has often mentioned Joseph Campbell....he looked deeply into many different cultures and their myths and legends and he distilled his feelings on the matter down to the simple line 'follow your bliss'

Carl Jung is perhaps anothr authority because over a career spanning many decades he heard the accounts of thousands of peoples dreams directly from them......i mean how many people get that kind of insight? INFJ's need to feed their intuition so that it can join the dots but that is some serious input!

In his book 'Man and His Symbols' it talks about the Naskapi Indians who live in the forests of the Labrador peninsula. They are hunters that live in isolated family groups. Because of this isolation they have not developed a lot of the usual rituals and customs of larger communities or religious beliefs. Naskapi hunters often operate alone in a harsh environment fraught with risk and far from help. There is no religious teachers to advise the isolated hunter so they must rely on their own inner voice and 'unconscious revelations'.

They believe that the soul of man is an 'inner companion' whom they call 'my friend' or Mista'peo meaning 'Great Man'.

''Mista'peo dwells in the heart and is immortal; in the moment of death, or shortly before, he leaves the individual, and later reincarnates himself in another being.

Those Naskapi who pay attention to their dreams and who try to find their meaning and test their truth can enter into a deeper connection with the Great Man. he favours such people and sends them more and better dreams.

Thus the major obligation of an individual Naskapi is to follow the instructions given by his dreams, and then to give permanent form to their contents in art. lies and dishonesty drive the Great man away from one's inner realm, whereas generosity and love of one's neighbour and of animals attract him and give him life.

Dreams give the Naskapi complete ability to find his way in life, not only in the inner world but also in the outer world of nature. They help him foretell the weather and give him invaluable guidance in his hunting, upon which his life depends.'' (p.162)

When chrisitanity was in its early stages, some christians would withdraw from society and live in the desert (the 'desert fathers') in order to cultivate and develop their relationship with god. But what does such sensory deprivation do? It turns the thoughts inwards (the kingdom of heaven is within)

Far away from the mediterranean and the deserts of egypt there developed a 'celtic church' amongst.....well the peoples who fall under the term 'celt'. This branch of the christian church that allowed its priests to marry and looked to a simple, ascetic form of worship was eventually pushed aside by the Roman Catholic Church that preferred a more flambouyant form of worship.

The celtic church monks also sought solitude on the islands of Britain which at that time was the edge of the world (non american world). they withdrew to some pretty windswept, isolated places with harsh weather in order to cultivate and deepen their relationship with god.

here's some monks cells on the island of skellig michael on the edge of the atlantic ocean:
View attachment 14279

Here's the island itself:

View attachment 14280

Pretty remote! That's a pretty extreme measure to go to to seek god. the point i'm trying to make is that its a journey inwards and has been since the beginning

A lot of what people associate chritianity or islam with now is just the accumulative bullshit of various cultures. the violence waged over land and oil or political ideology has clouded what its all about at the core

I think what an individual is doing to cultivate and deepen their relationship with god is what really matters and that it doesn't matter whether they are doing it with a christian flavour or an islamic flavour as long as they are looking within

Islam has its mystical side as well which has sometimes been persecuted by the mainstream orthodox because there is a tension between those who believe that religion is an inner personal experience and those who think that there is a single path through the emotional chaos and that the path is clearly defined in instruction manuals that must be interpreted literally

One side sees a deep connection with something all encompassing and transcendent and one side seems to see only words and likes to quote words with the precision of a lawyer seeking to dictate the law

Is it a personal intuitive journey or is it only an outer experience whereby your worthiness will be judged by how effectively you can self regulate yourself to remain within concrete paramaters set by others?

I'm convinced you've missed the entire point of this topic, and also don't know what you're talking about.

 

[Barnabas]

I don't see you discussing anything.

Not for lack of trying though, so why did you post this again?

Edit: the video, not the responses to my comments

Edited Edit: How did I not pick up that Saru up loaded the Video and not [MENTION=4423]Sriracha[/MENTION], sorry about that, my last couple of post most have came off as completely belligerent.

 

[Kmal]

[MENTION=3156]Saru Inc[/MENTION] here i am so far- you're saying that islam is a bad religion, and that if you follow it right, you'll be bad. However, there are people who claim to be islamic, but dont follow it, and they can potentially be good, since they dont follow the religion, they just say they do like the westboro church in christianity. What else should I know?

 

[InvisibleJim]

@Saru Inc here i am so far- you're saying that islam is a bad religion, and that if you follow it right, you'll be bad. However, there are people who claim to be islamic, but dont follow it, and they can potentially be good, since they dont follow the religion, they just say they do like the westboro church in christianity. What else should I know?

Those that follow X religion are bad therefore:
Those that don't follow X religion are good.

Hang on a minute; this isn't a dichomotomous analogue.

Because those that don't follow X religion can also be bad.

Either way, god is violent. He pretty happily fesses up to slaying the other dieties in the old testament. This is as good an analogoue for Jews, Christians and Muslims need to make Holy-Roly-Poly war whenever they want.

 

[Kmal]

[MENTION=3473]InvisibleJim[/MENTION]

Hang on a minute; this isn't a dichomotomous analogue. Either way, god is violent.

So God is dichomotomous?

 

[muir]

Well you did bring it up in the thread.

Yes i said that the US was indulging its warrior spirit the same way many military minded civilisations have throughout history

I wanted to point to the fact that as well as violence committed by islam there has been violence committed by judaism and by christianity and i tried to explain how i don't really think it is the religions themselves that cause the violence but rather an underlying aspect of human nature that needs to be understood and reconciled with.

Jung would call this the shadow

I've called the more aggressive side to human nature the warrior spirit. I don't think it is all bad. We need it in some situations as we need to defend ourselves sometimes even if only against other animals.

I think that religions often try to get us to connect with the gentler side to our nature but that imbalanced cultures fail to manage the warrior spirit effectively and it spills over in damaging ways

The roman empire spread christianity violently by the sword. islam grew out of the same god and prophets but added the words of a new prophet and it also saw violent expansion. The crusades saw christians massacre: jews, christians AND muslims. The british empire then spread christianity around the world on the point of a bayonet and now the US has politicians using religious rhetoric while it wages its neoliberal crusade against the world both with bombs and bullets but also with currencies

So the point i'm making is that seeking union with spirit or atonement (at-one-ment) is not conducive to violence. If people are seeking violence then they are not seeking union with spirit regardless of whether they call themselves a 'christian' a 'muslim' or a 'jew' they are simply indulging the darker aspect of their nature

Some gnostics such as the cathars used to believe that the spirit is light while everything material is dark. They would seek to connect with the spirit and transcend the material. Light and dark.

If you want to know who the inquisition are now then ask yourself who is fixated on the material and trying to get everyone else fixated on the material and if you want to know who the mystics are today then ask yourself who is trying to connect with spirit?

The US has one of the most materialistic cultures in the world and seems to be waging war in many different countries. Before 9/11 the US was waging a 'cold war' around the world and meddling in middle east affairs often suppressing democracy in order to support authoritarian regimes that supported the US in return for personal wealth. We have seen an angry reaction from muslims against US intervention for example the islamic revolution in Iran in 1979 and the overthrow of Mubarak in Egypt.

here is a pretty objective view from an american about why there is resentment against the US in the middle east:

[video=youtube;Ulo90udGw6c]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ulo90udGw6c[/video]

For as long as countries are playing power games then their leaders will always use religion as a flag to rally support around

 

[muir]

I'm convinced you've missed the entire point of this topic, and also don't know what you're talking about.

I'm dealing with the issue of whether or not islam is a religion of peace

My point can't be made in a few sentences but hopefully over the course of a few posts you will be able to understand my perspective even if you don't agree with it

 

[InvisibleJim]

@InvisibleJim So God is dichomotomous?

They may be!

 

[Kmal]

They may be!

I think that goes against the concept of a God, but a human's understanding of it can certainly be dichomotomous.

 

[Saru Inc]

This response is not really to Muir, but to the entire topic.

I'm dealing with the issue of whether or not islam is a religion of peace

My point can't be made in a few sentences but hopefully over the course of a few posts you will be able to understand my perspective even if you don't agree with it

No I understand that perspective/view, what I meant was this topic is solely about Islam, what you're saying about about violence simply being human is applicable to this topic, but what I'm looking for is verses from the Koran or widely accepted Islamic scholars that say Islam is a religion of peace. Why do I ask for that? Because I see day in and day out Bible verses displaying the "bile" that Christianity is, but out of the Koran, nothing? I posted many many verses from the Koran about killing infidels, and offered for anyone to disprove it, if they can disprove it again, using The Koran or teachings from long known and accepted Islamic scholars then I will back down. But no one will, they just try to make me feel bad by saying "so you're saying millions of people are terrorists???" I'm not, the Koran is. As Kmal said, why be religious and not follow the religion? Just as the Bible is the Word of Jesus, so is the Koran the word of Allah.


Whenever I ask to challenge people on this forum what happens? I am called a troll, a hater, a spammer -- these are words in order to make those against me feel rage and disregard my views, yet no one ever actually offers information against me. That's the whole thing, it's all a learning process, if I think someone is wrong I will point it out, but then they can always prove me wrong, and then I will have learned. Like when I pointed out the blatant racism in Sweden many times, I'm just ignored, when I point out the illegal aliens are criminals because they are breaking immigration laws I am ignored, when I point out this is no longer a free country if I *have* to do something or else be jailed, I am ignored. The problem is much bigger than this thread, people on this forum have an issue with pragmatism and facing the truth if it hurts. Perhaps it is my enneagram of 3 that makes me like this, but truth, even if it can only be obtained through pain, is so much more sweet than a thousand pillows of complacent ignorance. I don't wish any ill will towards anyone on this forum, while yes there are quite a few people I fundamentally disagree with, and this can blossom into personal battles, it is their beliefs I have an issue with, not them. And to those who say "admit it, you can't stand people who believe differently!" I can only answer with this: is that not more true for you, since you wish to paint me in such a light, ignore my words, and run me out of town?

 

[acd]

Yes i said that the US was indulging its warrior spirit the same way many military minded civilisations have throughout history

I wanted to point to the fact that as well as violence committed by islam there has been violence committed by judaism and by christianity and i tried to explain how i don't really think it is the religions themselves that cause the violence but rather an underlying aspect of human nature that needs to be understood and reconciled with.

Jung would call this the shadow

I've called the more aggressive side to human nature the warrior spirit. I don't think it is all bad. We need it in some situations as we need to defend ourselves sometimes even if only against other animals.

I think that religions often try to get us to connect with the gentler side to our nature but that imbalanced cultures fail to manage the warrior spirit effectively and it spills over in damaging ways

The roman empire spread christianity violently by the sword. islam grew out of the same god and prophets but added the words of a new prophet and it also saw violent expansion. The crusades saw christians massacre: jews, christians AND muslims. The british empire then spread christianity around the world on the point of a bayonet and now the US has politicians using religious rhetoric while it wages its neoliberal crusade against the world both with bombs and bullets but also with currencies

So the point i'm making is that seeking union with spirit or atonement (at-one-ment) is not conducive to violence. If people are seeking violence then they are not seeking union with spirit regardless of whether they call themselves a 'christian' a 'muslim' or a 'jew' they are simply indulging the darker aspect of their nature

Some gnostics such as the cathars used to believe that the spirit is light while everything material is dark. They would seek to connect with the spirit and transcend the material. Light and dark.

If you want to know who the inquisition are now then ask yourself who is fixated on the material and trying to get everyone else fixated on the material and if you want to know who the mystics are today then ask yourself who is trying to connect with spirit?

The US has one of the most materialistic cultures in the world and seems to be waging war in many different countries. Before 9/11 the US was waging a 'cold war' around the world and meddling in middle east affairs often suppressing democracy in order to support authoritarian regimes that supported the US in return for personal wealth. We have seen an angry reaction from muslims against US intervention for example the islamic revolution in Iran in 1979 and the overthrow of Mubarak in Egypt.

here is a pretty objective view from an american about why there is resentment against the US in the middle east:

[video=youtube;Ulo90udGw6c]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ulo90udGw6c[/video]

For as long as countries are playing power games then their leaders will always use religion as a flag to rally support around

Thanks.
And I agree with the bolded.
Religion can be used to justify violence and discrimination and oppression..people will interpret it any way that suits them personally.. whether it is to feel loved or to feel justified in their actions or both..
Religious extremism is the problem--not necessarily Islam--but extremism in any belief.
The more fundamental the view of religion, the more delusionally extreme and violent and oppressive.

I don't think it takes trying to unite with the spiritual to overcome violence and aggression.. Because I I'm not convinced there even is a spiritual, and it seems that religion is just a belief system used to explain the unexplainable.
The problem starts when you stop questioning about the unexplainable or at least being open to other views. It breeds an 'us vs them' mentality and breeds hostility.


As for the USA... yeah, we're fucked up over here...

 

[Saru Inc]

Acd, that argument only holds true if you believe religion is delusional in its entirety, which isn't a very sensible outlook.


And by the way, the most us vs them I've ever seen is Atheists vs Christians,. Most Christians I know are very kind to Muslims, Mormons, Atheists, Wicca etc. however in. Y experience more often than not most atheists have a deep seated root of hatred for God, and it's is shown by this thread in itself.


Also, I hope everyone takes note at words you're using to describe religion, more than one person has said it can be used to justify hatred, discrimination and oppression, yet very few, or perhap only I, have said it can be used to justify love, grace,and mercy. Perhaps you are the one who is close minded to the Gift of Love Hod has to offer, for the deaf notice the blind leading the blind, but in doing so they miss the sounds of their own cliff coming closer.

 

[acd]

Acd, that argument only holds true if you believe religion is delusional in its entirety, which isn't a very sensible outlook.


And by the way, the most us vs them I've ever seen is Atheists vs Christians,. Most Christians I know are very kind to Muslims, Mormons, Atheists, Wicca etc. however in. Y experience more often than not most atheists have a deep seated root of hatred for God, and it's is shown by this thread in itself.


Also, I hope everyone takes note at words you're using to describe religion, more than one person has said it can be used to justify hatred, discrimination and oppression, yet very few, or perhap only I, have said it can be used to justify love, grace,and mercy. Perhaps you are the one who is close minded to the Gift of Love Hod has to offer, for the deaf notice the blind leading the blind, but in doing so they miss the sounds of their own cliff coming closer.

@Saru Inc

Unbelief in the metaphysical is entirely sense-ible.

I think the frustration of atheists and agnostics is because we are mostly just tired of the world being run by people who believe they are ruled by invisible beings..that's how it seems to me.
It's also frustrating when Christians are "nice" to you (ie. condescending) because God wants them to be and because they feel sorry for you for being a hell-bound heathen.
I like you a whole lot, but even your post comes off as superior to me--you speak to me in parables--of me being deaf and blind and heading towards my own destruction. Why? Because I don't believe what you do.
That is rather intolerant, I think..

I'm not an atheist, I don't hate God.

I have an idea of God, if God exists, and the God I would believe in is kind and understanding and merciful and tolerant and doesn't need a hell to send people to.

My idea of God is different from your idea of God and your idea of God is different from your mother's and pastor's and whoever else's idea of God. No two people believe in the same God.
We can't. We have to inject our experience and wants and needs onto our idea of God. It is God who is made in our image, not the other way around..


I think that is what happens with people who use religion to justify violence.

You can use religion to justify hatred or love. Sure. I said that in the last post.

 

[Saru Inc]

K

 

[Kmal]

No I understand that perspective/view, what I meant was this topic is solely about Islam, what you're saying about about violence simply being human is applicable to this topic, but what I'm looking for is verses from the Koran or widely accepted Islamic scholars that say Islam is a religion of peace. Why do I ask for that? Because I see day in and day out Bible verses displaying the "bile" that Christianity is, but out of the Koran, nothing? I posted many many verses from the Koran about killing infidels, and offered for anyone to disprove it, if they can disprove it again, using The Koran or teachings from long known and accepted Islamic scholars then I will back down. But no one will, they just try to make me feel bad by saying "so you're saying millions of people are terrorists???" I'm not, the Koran is. As Kmal said, why be religious and not follow the religion? Just as the Bible is the Word of Jesus, so is the Koran the word of Allah.

It's just that I dont give a shit if it says anything about killing nonbelievers, especially since the verses you're talking in #53 are from al-anfal, written after the battle of badr, a civil war. Can you blame them for fighting for their homes? I say fuck the infidels too if they were to come into my home and try to take it.

Badr is also the subject of Sura 8: Al-Anfal, which details military conduct and operations. "Al-Anfal" means "the spoils" and is a reference to the post-battle discussion in the Muslim army over how to divide up the plunder from the Quraishi army. Though the Sura does not name Badr, it describes the battle, and several of the verses are commonly thought to have been from or shortly after the battle.

[Remember] when your Lord inspired to the angels, "I am with you, so strengthen those who have believed. I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieved, so strike [them] upon the necks and strike from them every fingertip."

To the angels- cut their heads off and their fingertips. The muslims, as per one of my muslim friends, believe Allah sent angels on the battlefield and that is where that verse comes from. This is not a direct order for the muslims to kill those who disbelieve, it's for the angels.

O you who have believed, when you meet those who disbelieve advancing [for battle], do not turn to them your backs [in flight]. And whoever turns his back to them on such a day, unless swerving [as a strategy] for war or joining [another] company, has certainly returned with anger [upon him] from Allah , and his refuge is Hell - and wretched is the destination.

Can't blame them for not wanting cowards in their army.

You will surely find the most intense of the people in animosity toward the believers [to be] the Jews and those who associate others with Allah ; and you will find the nearest of them in affection to the believers those who say, "We are Christians." That is because among them are priests and monks and because they are not arrogant. And when they hear what has been revealed to the Messenger, you see their eyes overflowing with tears because of what they have recognized of the truth. They say, "Our Lord, we have believed, so register us among the witnesses. And why should we not believe in Allah and what has come to us of the truth? And we aspire that our Lord will admit us [to Paradise] with the righteous people." So Allah rewarded them for what they said with gardens [in Paradise] beneath which rivers flow, wherein they abide eternally. And that is the reward of doers of good. But those who disbelieved and denied Our signs - they are the companions of Hellfire.

It looks like they like Christians.

 

[Saru Inc]

I posted like 5 chapters of verses, including the one that says those who say they are with Jesus, God and Holy Spirit will have fire as an abode, for there is no God but Allah


Although I'm glad you're finally posting shit now instead of squawking in a circle for 4 pages.

 

[Kmal]

I posted like 5 chapters of verses, including the one that says those who say they are with Jesus, God and Holy Spirit will have fire as an abode, for there is no God but Allah

Well- 5:72-73: They do blaspheme who say: "God is Christ the son of Mary." But said Christ: "O Children of Israel! worship God, my Lord and your Lord." Whoever joins other gods with God, - God will forbid him the garden, and the Fire will be his abode. There will for the wrongdoers be no one to help. They do blaspheme who say: God is one of three in a Trinity: for there is no god except One God. If they desist not from their word (of blasphemy), verily a grievous penalty will befall the blasphemers among them.

Luke 4:8Jesus answered him, “It is written, ‘YOU SHALL WORSHIP THE LORD YOUR GOD AND SERVE HIM ONLY.’”

It's contextual.

 

[Saru Inc]

Ok I don't even know why I'm taking the bait in this damn topic...

But correct, Jesus is the only God and there is no other God but Him; however, @Kmal -- we're not really arguing whether or not two monotheistic religions are allied with each other? That's silly.

The issue is how are the followers instructed to treat other people? I have seen verses in the koran where it says to help the outsiders, which is why I'm perplexed that no one is posting them.

I'm glad you're jumping on the contextual train, I hope you have a nice ride.

 

[Flavus Aquila]

I think two topics are being confused in this thread in a way that does not help either topic:

1. The tenets of the religion in question.
2. The behaviour of individuals identifying with that religion.



Given the quotes from the Koran, posted earlier - and elsewhere I have seen - it seems that Islam, by its tenets, only offers peace to Muslim men; and a limited peace to Muslim women. To non-Muslims, Islam seems to prefer neither peace, nor tolerance.

It then seems foolish for anyone, except Muslims, to call Islam a religion of peace. Even for Muslims this claim of peace is not absolute, as it is qualified, - in that their religion seems to encourage them to have enmity towards non-Muslims.

Individual Muslims may, or may not be found to follow the tenets of their religion.

[MENTION=3156]Saru Inc[/MENTION] [MENTION=5662]ENT8[/MENTION] [MENTION=1871]muir[/MENTION] [MENTION=564]acd[/MENTION] [MENTION=5219]Rferraris[/MENTION] [MENTION=731]uberrogo[/MENTION] [MENTION=2890]Lerxst[/MENTION] [MENTION=2259]Kmal[/MENTION] [MENTION=4822]Matt3737[/MENTION] [MENTION=1848]The Doctor[/MENTION] [MENTION=4423]Sriracha[/MENTION] [MENTION=3473]InvisibleJim[/MENTION]