Jan 6th trial discussion

[slant]

I'm a little late to the game but wanted to start a topic about this. I realize the trump will win again might have bled into this but this might lead to a more nuanced discussion. If another thread exists I couldn't find it so feel free to close this one if it does.

What are your thoughts on the trial?

On one hand, when I think about other countries especially less economically developed countries as the US, when I see the population storm the capital even if it is a small group of people if it's been motivated by a political movement that seems like a group is trying to overthrow the government.

Our country has a history of this such as the colonists vs great Britain- so you could say it either might be a extreme political movement like what happened in Germany under Hitler or it might be a rightful cause. It depends on what side you're looking at it from.

Secondly, knowing people in my own family who are Trump supporters, I think it's unlikely that the trial no matter the outcome would change their minds.

At the same time- if we are trying to stop a political movement that might try to overthrow the government, the only real solution would be to indite trump and have him actually go to jail. If he was given a slap on the wrist or anything symbolic it will only embolden the movement. Then again, throwing him in jail would do the same thing but it would send a strong message of resistance.

How do you feel? What are your thoughts?

 

[Wyote]

It's inconsequential, not really a trial but more of a show.
Nothing will come of it so it's all pretty pointless.
Just politicians finding new ways to pat themselves on the back while advertising for elections.
Great waste of time and money.

 

[Work]

In the latest Reuters/Ipsos poll completed on Thursday [7/14/22] showed a majority of Republicans - or 55% - continue to believe the 2020 election was stolen from Trump..... that share is down from 67% in early June .........Now, one third of Republican respondents think Trump should not run for president again in 2024, up from a quarter who held that view in early June when the bipartisan congressional probe began broadcasting hearings......https://news.yahoo.com/cracks-appear-trumps-standing-among-205455302.html................

 

[Wyote]

Honestly I think he should be either re-elected or executed.
I'd be happy either way.

 

[Roses In The Vineyard]

For the vast majority of the population it has been a nothing burger as other issues have come first like inflation and cost of existence etc.

 

[Matty]

I'm not American, but it seems over the top. On Jan 6th, the coverage looked like an irreverent protest, with some guy wearing a costume.

The little coverage I watched afterwards just seemed like insanely high hyperbole, and reminded reminded me of how soccer players will act like every bone in both legs are broken if anyone bumps them. The people who entered the capital were childish, and the reaction seems childish.

I don't know what specific laws apply, but my gut feeling is that a few people probably need to be punished for trespassing, or disrupting the peace. When I hear people talking about 1930s Germany, executing people, or saying it's worse than 9/11, I think they're mentally ill.

 

[aeon]

I'm not American, but it seems over the top. On Jan 6th, the coverage looked like an irreverent protest, with some guy wearing a costume.

The little coverage I watched afterwards just seemed like insanely high hyperbole, and reminded reminded me of how soccer players will act like every bone in both legs are broken if anyone bumps them. The people who entered the capital were childish, and the reaction seems childish.

Yeah, a couple of planted bombs and a few deaths are benchmark irreverent protest.

Cheers,
Ian

 

[Matty]

Yeah, a couple of planted bombs and a few deaths are benchmark irreverent protest.

Cheers,
Ian

I didn't know anyone died at the capital (as I said, I'm not American, and I tuned it out because of hyperbole).
Anyhow, one protestor got shot, one died of a drug overdose, and one died of a stroke. One officer died of a heart attack somewhere to the west of the actual building, and days later, one officer died of a stroke, and two officers suicided.

From what I read, it seems like only one person died in something other than self inflicted or lifestyle/genetics related ways, and it was a some protestor.

I also read that two bombs were placed by someone on January 5th, one outside the republican national committee, the other outside the democrat national committee. I have no idea where these buildings are, or whether it's part of the capital. There are no suspects.

To me, it seems like only one person was killed in connection to the incident, and it was just another American officer shooting of an unarmed suspect. The bombs are more worrying, and it would be good to see if a suspect or motive is ever identified.

In relation to your reply, you made it sound like people were killing each other at the capital, resulting in multiple dearhs, when in actuality, one unarmed suspect was shot by an officer. Again, I reiterate my first post, it seems like over the top hyperbole is the entire discussion, and it comes across as either extremely transparent dishonesty, or cognitive failure.

I don't know if it's part of American culture to exaggerate, but even if it were, it seems inappropriate when treating serious topics. Here in Australia, if people engage in hyperbole, it's generally reserved for unmistakably jovial or lighthearted topics, such as the size of genitalia, fish landed on fishing trips, or how large a spider was. I really find the American preference for hyperbole about serious topics, such as death, political unrest, poverty, healthcare, etc EXTREMELY distasteful, and repellent.

 

[aeon]

Fair enough, if someone is severely beaten by a group of people at a protest, and they later die at a hospital from a stroke that was a sequelae of the beating, no one died, or was killed, at the protest.

The Jan. 6th hearings concerned a much larger context. Your preferences and expression are duly noted.

Cheers,
Ian

 

[Matty]

Fair enough, if someone is severely beaten by a group of people at a protest, and they later die at a hospital from a stroke that was a sequelae of the beating, no one died, or was killed, at the protest.

The Jan. 6th hearings concerned a much larger context. Your preferences and expression are duly noted.

Cheers,
Ian

I just googled it. Officer Sicknick's death by stroke was ruled death by natural causes by the Washington medical examiner, who noted that Sicknick's condition was affected by his experiences, not caused by them.

To be honest, I googled it because I was more curious if you were exaggerating than from any interest in the particular incident. It seems you have either exaggerated, or fabricated a cause of death.

Of course, there may be a discussion about whether the medical examiner's ruling of death by natural causes should be reviewed, but this is not what you posted, you basically posted bullshit as fact.

I'd normally just mentally dismiss you from all future consideration as an unreliable character, but it's beyond just you being an unreliable communicator, it's almost become a cultural trait of a lot of north Americans.

I almost cannot remember an American who proceeds from a respectable position. It mostly seems like a symptom of extreme tribal polarisation, with very few reasoned good faith individuals left in discourse.

Are there any topics where one can find non extremist takes? Politics, reproduction, international relations, economics, climate, morality, law enforcement, the judicial system, nutrition, healthcare, etc are all impossible to discuss with an American, because people take irreconcilable unreasonable positions, and engage in hyperbole and falsifying the basic tenets of the topic.

For example, climate change only seems to be discussed from two positions: denial it is happening, or denial that it is inevitable. It seems to me that unless China, the US, India, and Brasil essentially close their entire economies, climate change is absolutely inevitable. Since the prospect of any country closing all energy consumption is unrealistic, the topic of climate change needs to be about mitigation and adaptation to it. Instead all one hears is crazy people and liars shouting about conspiracy theories, or the complete extinction of all vertebrate life.

At what point does one keep trying to engage with people who don't even try to anything but fabricate information?

Returning to the topic, I'm going to disengage once more from the topic, because there is no value in reading false assertions of killings, extremist calls for the execution of politicians, or participating in tribal posturing with groups on either side which are repellent.

While you Americans argue whether the Trump administration was absurd, or the Biden administration is absurd, your oblivious to the possibility that both are absurd, making most of you absurd. The only absurdity I'm willing to endorse is the social utility of getting kicked in the nuts by a kangaroo, after trying to hump a topiary hedge.

 

[Wyote]

It mostly seems like a symptom of extreme tribal polarisation, with very few reasoned good faith individuals left in discourse

You're not wrong.

Though as far as the Jan 6th incident is concerned, just because only one person died doesn't mean it's any less of a symbolic deterioration of our democracy as well as an actual threatening event. If those in harms way hadn't been evacuated and/or those posing the threats weren't mostly brainless nitwits, who knows what the outcome could have been.

 

[aeon]

To be honest, I googled it because I was more curious if you were exaggerating than from any interest in the particular incident. It seems you have either exaggerated, or fabricated a cause of death.

I was speaking in the abstract, but you seem to have missed that, made a few assumptions, and then got out your soapbox.

And wait, you’re going to chastise me about being an unreliable character? You, the person who doubled down on...

Oh, nevermind. Not worth it. You’re amusing, though!

Cheers,
Ian

 

[Rit4lin]

As a Brit looking in on it, it's really just an indicator of the state of US politics, or even arguably the psyche of the US. The fact that you had thousands of people descend on a seat of government to overturn the results of a democratic election, just because some conspiracy nuts go "We HaD iT sToLeN" is insane. This wasn't merely a protest, but an act of domestic terrorism. However, with that said, I don't approach this with a "OH my god this happened in the US!!!! The seat of Western democracy and freedom!!" as it appeared some perceptions were. Do I expect much from the trial? Not really. One should be able to expect the law to be unbiased and unpartisan, yet the US can't even get that right as evident by recent Supreme Court actions.

As for the events of the actual day, it's pretty horrific. Chants for finding congresswomen such as Pelosi or Alexandria, or for getting the traitor Pence. A protestor shot as she tried climbing through a barricade because the one lone security guard was afraid for his safety due to the chanting horde infront. Another trampled by fellow protestors more focused on throwing items at officers or trying to 'impale' them with flag poles - even dragging one poor bastard out saying 'take his gun', whereby people only calmed down after the officer screamed that he had children as he thought they were going to kill him. A group within the protestors armed The trauma suffered and suicides which followed.

Internationally, I don't think it's as big of a deal as initially it was made out to be. It's important for serving as a testament to the state of the US right now. Domestically, not only is the Capitol Insurrection a big issue but most importantly it hopefully highlights how divided and stupidly polarised many of the US are, and what needs to be done for the country to come together again.

It's no surprise that Trump ideology of bringing America together, making it great again and secluding itself from the international stage to focus on itself was taken up by so many. If the country isn't careful, more people will turn to such nationalistic rhetoric to feel a sense of cohesiveness imo.
To a certain extent, that's why I don't think the trial will change much. It may turn people away from Trump, but the ideology he espoused will remain. I've only read a little on the trial, but if Trump isn't charged and imprisoned I'll be damn amused. It would just be another nail in the coffin for the international perception of the US, and its decline on the world stage.
Or of course, Trump does indeed run for president again, win, and gets the republicans to do all they can to throw out the hearing.

Spoiler: Timeline video

It's a long watch, 40 minutes, but I found it to be very informative and eye-opening as someone who went into the video barely knowing anything about the day.