Jesus, in general.

[Eventhorizon]

To be fair, their not being chased off, Harvard said they could stay. They instead chose to leave instead of causing a spectacle, which when you really think about it is strange considering it was practice originally organized to make a mock spectacle of Catholic mass.

Not saying either is right or wrong in the matter, Harvard has long since divorced it'self from it's religious history and the people who are calling for this to be shut down probably don't know the difference between laveyan Satanism and theological satanism which I'm sure is part of what kind of understanding the school club wanted to promote.

Still the when you call yourself a satanist you do it with the expectation of this kind of reaction maybe even the encouragement of such a response. The fact that they backed down shows more about their conviction to their philosophy then anything else.

All and all just people being people.

Well if done for no other reason than to make a mockery of any other religion it would be childish and unnecessary. However if their intent was actual worship of a religion of which they believe, if you allow one you must allow all others.

 

[Skarekrow]

This kind of sentiment may be sweet to the ears of lost people, but it's utterly repulsive to God.

If you want to know what love is, look to Christ on the cross, suffering for the sins of his people.

He bore the wrath of God, though he never once sinned, in thought word, or deed, for one second!

WHY?

Because he loved his people, and poured out his soul unto death, to reconcile them to God, through his blood.

THAT is love.

Your sins have separated you from God, but if you want forgiveness, BELIEVE on the LORD JESUS CHRIST.

He will ABUNDANTLY PARDON all those who BELIEVE on his name.

But if you despise and reject him, and do not follow him, the wrath of God abides on you.

You'll have to confess you're a sinner, and BOW to KING JESUS before God will accept you and love you.

You are hoping God will accept you "just because," but salvation is only IN CHRIST.

I pray to God he will sweep away your refuge of lies, and draw you, by faith, to the LORD JESUS CHRIST.

YOU Sir…are utterly repulsive in the eyes of God!
Shut up already…people here have told you nicely, forcefully, tried to reason with you - you and your hate speech aren’t wanted here!

 

[Eventhorizon]

Ha so something I was thinking about the other day. There seems to be a direct correlation, some truth to the idea of mind over matter. People concentrating on the same thing can effect things. Something that @Skarecrow has shown a great amount of documentation on. It stands to reason then that "prayer" can actually change things.

Now does this mean I believe in any "gods". No. It just means I think prayer does in fact effect things but not because of any god involved, because people are focusing on the same idea. Yet again we find that religion stumbled across something in the darkened rooms of the past.

Open your mind and be free of everything that obscures the truth.

 

[ThomasJ79]

YOU Sir…are utterly repulsive in the eyes of God!
Shut up already…people here have told you nicely, forcefully, tried to reason with you - you and your hate speech aren’t wanted here!

It is really difficult dealing with people that hold such strong, opinionated beliefs, especially when they condemn others for not believing the same thing. I have come to tuning such people out, as difficult as it may be because eventually they tire when you ignore them long enough. Sometimes I'm not successful in doing even this and engage them in argument. When I do this, I lose something valuable. Proselytizers seek to have an effect on listening ears. You cannot convince others of the truth unless you feel you have the truth, and such proselytizers think they have the truth. To say otherwise would undermine the conversion process. Some people are better at it than others. They speak to you from the heart and talk of love and forgiveness, at least if we're talking about Christianity. Others, unfortunately, use fear and shame as a means to an end; to spread their message because the message of love is sacrificed for the sake of numbers. The fear of hell has been essential in converting people to Christianity since it formed and will continue to be for quite some time. If they genuinely cared about other people's souls, they would deliver their message with love and not with fear. I cannot help but feel pity for these people as they're often clinging to their own fears and insecurities and projecting them onto others. But they aren't alone, for we all have done this or will do this at some point in our life. Being alive and being human alone makes us open to such feelings. Hopefully all of our spirits will be at peace before the end of our lives so we don't carry the pain or negative energy with us.

~peace~

 

[Barnabas]

Well if done for no other reason than to make a mockery of any other religion it would be childish and unnecessary. However if their intent was actual worship of a religion of which they believe, if you allow one you must allow all others.

At the bottom of the article there is a quote from one of the Harvard representatives saying that while they hate the idea of someone holding a black mass on their grounds they remain a place where free speech is respected and will allow the satanic church to decide whether or not to hold the mass.

 

[Tin Man]

If Jesus Christ as was written of in the bible appeared on earth today, how could he prove himself to be the son of God in your eyes?

If he sought to prove his divinity to me I would be pretty cynical. If he's Jesus, that's great. I don't see why he needs to prove it to anyone.

Unless, of course he needed my help for something, then he would have to do something pretty special to prove it to me. I'm not sure what exactly.

If he did a couple of magic tricks as he did supposedly did in the past, would that be enough?

If a man did magic tricks in order to prove to me he was Jesus, I would have near unequivocal evidence that he's not Jesus Christ.

Once he proved himself, if he told you the bible was false, how would you feel about that?

All of it? Then as sprinkles said, he's pretty much telling me he doesn't exist which would be weird. Unless he's Super Mecha Death Christ 2000 which would be a different story.

 

[the]

To ask if jesus did "magic tricks" is a pretty asshole question. What a loaded question.

 

[Eventhorizon]

To ask if jesus did "magic tricks" is a pretty asshole question. What a loaded question.

I dont see it as such.

 

[Skarekrow]

Ha so something I was thinking about the other day. There seems to be a direct correlation, some truth to the idea of mind over matter. People concentrating on the same thing can effect things. Something that @Skarecrow has shown a great amount of documentation on. It stands to reason then that "prayer" can actually change things.

Now does this mean I believe in any "gods". No. It just means I think prayer does in fact effect things but not because of any god involved, because people are focusing on the same idea. Yet again we find that religion stumbled across something in the darkened rooms of the past.

Open your mind and be free of everything that obscures the truth.

Yes…it is far more likely for there to be a “collective consciousness” than there to be an actually creator type God…not that I am discounting the possibility, because one still could exist. I find it highly doubtful though that there would be a “Hell” for those who did not worship such a being…that is beyond irrational.

It is really difficult dealing with people that hold such strong, opinionated beliefs, especially when they condemn others for not believing the same thing. I have come to tuning such people out, as difficult as it may be because eventually they tire when you ignore them long enough. Sometimes I'm not successful in doing even this and engage them in argument. When I do this, I lose something valuable. Proselytizers seek to have an effect on listening ears. You cannot convince others of the truth unless you feel you have the truth, and such proselytizers think they have the truth. To say otherwise would undermine the conversion process. Some people are better at it than others. They speak to you from the heart and talk of love and forgiveness, at least if we're talking about Christianity. Others, unfortunately, use fear and shame as a means to an end; to spread their message because the message of love is sacrificed for the sake of numbers. The fear of hell has been essential in converting people to Christianity since it formed and will continue to be for quite some time. If they genuinely cared about other people's souls, they would deliver their message with love and not with fear. I cannot help but feel pity for these people as they're often clinging to their own fears and insecurities and projecting them onto others. But they aren't alone, for we all have done this or will do this at some point in our life. Being alive and being human alone makes us open to such feelings. Hopefully all of our spirits will be at peace before the end of our lives so we don't carry the pain or negative energy with us.

~peace~

I agree.
I don’t actually have a problem with what SG is saying, just the manner in which he is saying it…I really have a problem with people who are so conceited and cocksure that they feel the need to put others down and piss on them.
I have always positioned myself against such people and I probably always will. I am of the mindset that everyone has the right to believe whatever they feel is true and right and good in their heart…that it is not my place to tell them they are wrong, and in fact, NO ONE has that right - period.
Now that isn’t saying that someone who feels that pedophilia is right and good in there heart is in fact okay with me…when such thoughts and behaviors negatively impact the lives of others then I take issue with it of course.
But why should anyone care if someone is gay? Why should anyone care what religion anyone believes or does not believe? It really makes no difference.
I understand that SG feels he is trying to save people for the fiery pits of Hell…but they way he does it just rubs me the wrong way…I probably am not getting anywhere by being in defiance with him…but I find it very difficult to stand idly by while he denigrates others…belittling their beliefs…and calls them names like “false prophets”.
I’m sure HE wouldn’t enjoy it if someone were to do that to his own beliefs, so I will not condone his actions with my silence when he does that to someone else.
I understand what you are saying…sometimes I can go a bit overboard…lol.
Cheers!

 

[muir]

But why should anyone care if someone is gay? Why should anyone care what religion anyone believes or does not believe? It really makes no difference.
I understand that SG feels he is trying to save people for the fiery pits of Hell…but they way he does it just rubs me the wrong way…I probably am not getting anywhere by being in defiance with him…but I find it very difficult to stand idly by while he denigrates others…belittling their beliefs…and calls them names like “false prophets”.
I’m sure HE wouldn’t enjoy it if someone were to do that to his own beliefs, so I will not condone his actions with my silence when he does that to someone else.
I understand what you are saying…sometimes I can go a bit overboard…lol.
Cheers!

Sometimes a sounding board can be good to help us work off our rough edges

Sometimes a wee polish is needed and othertimes a sand blast!

 

[Skarekrow]

If Jesus Christ as was written of in the bible appeared on earth today, how could he prove himself to be the son of God in your eyes?

If he sought to prove his divinity to me I would be pretty cynical. If he's Jesus, that's great. I don't see why he needs to prove it to anyone.

Unless, of course he needed my help for something, then he would have to do something pretty special to prove it to me. I'm not sure what exactly.

If he did a couple of magic tricks as he did supposedly did in the past, would that be enough?

If a man did magic tricks in order to prove to me he was Jesus, I would have near unequivocal evidence that he's not Jesus Christ.

Once he proved himself, if he told you the bible was false, how would you feel about that?

All of it? Then as sprinkles said, he's pretty much telling me he doesn't exist which would be weird. Unless he's Super Mecha Death Christ 2000 which would be a different story.

To ask if jesus did "magic tricks" is a pretty asshole question. What a loaded question.

I dont see it as such.

 

[Eventhorizon]

Any technology sufficiently advanced would appear as magic to the unknowing. This was the point I was trying to relay subliminally when referring to Jesus or anyone causing "miracles" Some would accept it as an act of God, I would not.

 

[Lark]

If Jesus Christ as was written of in the bible appeared on earth today, how could he prove himself to be the son of God in your eyes? What would it take for you to follow him in your eyes? If he did a couple of magic tricks as he did supposedly did in the past, would that be enough?

Once he proved himself, if he told you the bible was false, how would you feel about that?

Hmm, yeah.

Jesus didnt do a couple of magic tricks though, there were plenty of magicians or wonder workers or miracle healers in his day, as there were in the days of the prophets or Moses, Jesus was born into a community of believers and based his authority not upon miracles but from the earliest days of his career, when he was a child, upon his knowledge of scriptures and tradition and its authority, he was a consistent Jew of the Jewish tradition.

When he worked wonders it was not to create faith where it did not exist but it was to channel the divine will, recognising the existing faith and practice of believers, especially where this would not have been properly or appropriately recognised and enobled by the existing earthly authorities, for instance when it was believed that the ill or paralysed were suffering as a consequence of their sin or the sins of their fathers and experiencing the irredeemable punishment of a vengeful and angry God.

The crucial component in Jesus life and ministry was his perfect knowledge of life and God, which he lived, and his sacrifice when the world could not tolerate it for another day. The ressurection is important and as many of the early Christians testified if Jesus did not rise from the dead it would appear that the faith is in vain but if it was proven irrefutably to be all a myth I still believe that the life, ministry, message and death of Jesus would be sufficient to warrant the positive legacy he hoped for.

And in what respect would he prove or say the bible was false? Its existentialist messages, its moral and ethical framework, its frame of orientation, its object of devotion? What?

 

[Lark]

Any technology sufficiently advanced would appear as magic to the unknowing. This was the point I was trying to relay subliminally when referring to Jesus or anyone causing "miracles" Some would accept it as an act of God, I would not.

So do you mean that "Jesus the magician" or "Jesus of the super technics" is more believeable for you than "Jesus son/agent of God"?

 

[sprinkles]

Hmm, yeah.

Jesus didnt do a couple of magic tricks though, there were plenty of magicians or wonder workers or miracle healers in his day, as there were in the days of the prophets or Moses, Jesus was born into a community of believers and based his authority not upon miracles but from the earliest days of his career, when he was a child, upon his knowledge of scriptures and tradition and its authority, he was a consistent Jew of the Jewish tradition.

When he worked wonders it was not to create faith where it did not exist but it was to channel the divine will, recognising the existing faith and practice of believers, especially where this would not have been properly or appropriately recognised and enobled by the existing earthly authorities, for instance when it was believed that the ill or paralysed were suffering as a consequence of their sin or the sins of their fathers and experiencing the irredeemable punishment of a vengeful and angry God.

The crucial component in Jesus life and ministry was his perfect knowledge of life and God, which he lived, and his sacrifice when the world could not tolerate it for another day. The ressurection is important and as many of the early Christians testified if Jesus did not rise from the dead it would appear that the faith is in vain but if it was proven irrefutably to be all a myth I still believe that the life, ministry, message and death of Jesus would be sufficient to warrant the positive legacy he hoped for.

And in what respect would he prove or say the bible was false? Its existentialist messages, its moral and ethical framework, its frame of orientation, its object of devotion? What?

Yes.

Long story short, I don't think he would have done miracles as a proof. I think he would have done miracles both to help people learn, and to actually help their physical situation as well.

Satan apparently tempted Jesus by asking Jesus to do various miracles to prove that Jesus is the son of God. Jesus refused. I think that says something.

 

[Lark]

Yes.

Long story short, I don't think he would have done miracles as a proof. I think he would have done miracles both to help people learn, and to actually help their physical situation as well.

Satan apparently tempted Jesus by asking Jesus to do various miracles to prove that Jesus is the son of God. Jesus refused. I think that says something.

Yup.

I should have said that.

There are not any stories of Jesus actually performing an wonders for the benefit of himself, just plenty for other people and their benefit. It could only be said that it was very, very indirectly for his personal benefit and even that is an arguable point. For instance it doesnt day that Jesus ate any of the food he magically multipled at the feeding of the five thousand or that he drank the wine he created from water.

To be honest I find some of the Jewish mysticism stories about the 32 just men, any of whom could become the messiah or messianic figure at any time etc. interesting.

In a sense, and I DEFINITELY DO NOT MEAN ANY OF THE BS ILLUMINATI/MASONIC ETC. CONSPIRACIES, its possible that Jesus has returned to earth many times, who is to say otherwise, who is to know?

 

[Barnabas]

So do you mean that "Jesus the magician" or "Jesus of the super technics" is more believeable for you than "Jesus son/agent of God"?

What about Jesus the Malkavian, that would blow C.S. Lewis's mind with his Liar, Lunatic, Lord theory.

 

[Lark]

What about Jesus the Malkavian, that would blow C.S. Lewis's mind with his Liar, Lunatic, Lord theory.

Can you elaborate? I'm interested

 

[VH]

If Jesus Christ as was written of in the bible appeared on earth today,

Let's start here, in the middle of this sentence.

Taking a look at the character as he was written in the bible will require a lot of religious assumptions to be removed, but sure I'll be happy to roll through this thought exercise given these parameters.

As he was written to have appeared was basically a back woods redneck from out in the sticks. He wasn't at all cultured, and that was a huge sticking point for the pious religious people of the time. He came from a dirt poor village from dirt poor people. He would be much more likely to look like a refugee from a third world country to our eyes than the blonde haired blue eyed movie star hippie we associate him with in paintings. He probably looked extremely Mediterranean, if not Arabic.

He would probably look a lot like this dude.

how could he prove himself to be the son of God in your eyes?

Another interesting point that a lot of people miss in the texts is that he had an aura about him that people were drawn to. They saw / felt / sensed a holiness about him. People were constantly calling him "Rabbi" upon meeting him, and inviting him to dinner at their homes. People met him and said, "You're really cool. I need my family to meet you so I don't have to explain this thing about you that I don't have words for." People gathered by the hundreds, sometimes thousands to meet him because of the word of mouth accounts of his holiness. It exuded from him, if the way he was written is to hold any validity.

Yet another interesting point was that he didn't go around claiming to be the son of God. He wasn't boastful of himself. He talked about "God the Father", but the Jewish people refer to God as Abba which means father. This wasn't out of the ordinary, nor an implied claim to be the messiah. Most of the time when it came up, it was because people put it together and asked him if he was. So, I doubt that he would try to prove who he was to anyone if he appeared today. He'd let his message speak for itself and take root in people as truth, or move on. He wouldn't have the ego of religious people to force others to believe, just love for anyone who was open to what he had to say... because as he was written, he didn't have it then either.

To prove it to me, he'd have to have that presence, which entails a whole lot of specific traits that can't really be faked into a whole package of a person, and he would have to let me put it together myself, because as he was written, that's his style.

If he did a couple of magic tricks as he did supposedly did in the past, would that be enough?

All of us are now entitled to perform those same miracles through the holy spirit. At the last supper when he announced he'd be leaving, the apostles asked what they would do without Jesus and his powers. He said "you will do far greater miracles than I have", and after Pentecost they did, according to later accounts in the bible. Peter's shadow passing over people could heal them, according to the writer of Luke. In Acts, it is said that the Apostles healed by the thousands.

In my own life, I've seen people perform miracles in "that defied reality" kind of ways, but I've also seen miracles performed in "maybe that wasn't a miracle" kinds of ways that still defied anything but a whole lot of long shot overlapping coincidence. Miracles would impress me, but they wouldn't be proof. They would just be another factor for him to be 'as he was written'.

The point to Jesus being on Earth was to be an example of what we can do when we have a relationship with God. He never did anything a normal human being can't, aside from being the lamb of redemption. If he wasn't a normal person while he was here, it would just be God showing off. His miracles weren't to show off. His miracles were to show us that we can do them, and how amazing a relationship with God can become. His perfection came at the end, because nothing can be perfect until it is complete. "It is finished."

Therefore, whether or not he performed miracles would not be a factor in whether or not I believed he was who he probably wouldn't even say he was.

Once he proved himself, if he told you the bible was false, how would you feel about that?

That's essentially what he did in the New Testament about the Old Testament. That's why they're different books. Part of his purpose was to explain how they'd gotten it wrong, clarify, and fulfill. He upset a whole lot of religious people by telling them that what they believed was wrong. However, he never said the bible was false, so I don't see him taking that approach in a modern incarnation. He'd very likely take up the cause of reforming and telling people where they got it wrong, and teaching his original way, which we've diverged from in the past 2,000 years.

If I met someone who had that aura of holiness, performed miracles, and had a divine wisdom that exceeded the natural, I'd follow them out of sheer curiosity to learn from them. If at some point I pieced together who he really was, without him telling me, I'd have little reason not to believe it, because at that point he would have lived up to the criteria of "how he was presented in the bible".

But, he would have earned my trust as a teacher long before that for the reasons mentioned above, so it wouldn't change much other than my level of respect.

 

[say what]

I'm going to hell...my first response was - "Ooo! Jesus is sexy!"