Law and the Sex Offenders Register
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The only thing a public sex offenders register is going to do is breed hate, fear, paranoia, violence and suspicion.
Sexual abuse and the most heinous crime of child abuse is created and nutured in a society and culture that breeds fear, separation, insecurity, dishonesty and hatred of others. These people are sick and need to be helped. Hating these people is not helpful and will not fix the problem. All people deserve our love. The only solution is to create more communication, education, honesty, support and safety nets for those most at risk. This is a cultural problem, not an individual one. These people were children once too, no different from our own. It is sad and heart breaking what has happened to them and what they have done to others.
This attitude of 'once a perpetrator always a perpertrator' is bull shit. Have some faith and love in people. Mistrust and suspicion will only breed more mistrust and suspicion. Beware of creating self fulfilling prophesies. This is just judgemental and unhelpful thinking, especaily when sex offenders are told this by everyone. How the fuck are they supposed to behave then if nobody wants to give them a chance and is always second guessing them?
The best thing to do is to be vigilent, educate, always be honest and encourage honesty and communicate with your child. By all means keep an eye on your child, but it is not necessary to judge and label others based on suspicions.
I would not worry if i had a sex offender living next door. They are still human and worthy of love and a second chance.
People may think Im naive and stupid. Ive had my fair shair of pain and negativity and for a long time I looked at others with suspicion and paronia because of the things that happened to me. As soon as I let go of my hate, opened myself to grace and forgiveness- all this negativity disappeared and Im no longer concerned that bad things will happen to me. I do not fear for my daughter at all. I love her, and the best thing i can do to 'protect' her is to love her, respect her, educate her, teach her trust and honesty and let her be the person she is. She doesnt need protection, nor do I. We dont need protection and security, we need trust, knowledge and love. You cannot control other people or the world, but you have power over your own life and choices.
Sexual abuse and the most heinous crime of child abuse is created and nutured in a society and culture that breeds fear, separation, insecurity, dishonesty and hatred of others. These people are sick and need to be helped. Hating these people is not helpful and will not fix the problem. All people deserve our love. The only solution is to create more communication, education, honesty, support and safety nets for those most at risk. This is a cultural problem, not an individual one. These people were children once too, no different from our own. It is sad and heart breaking what has happened to them and what they have done to others.
This attitude of 'once a perpetrator always a perpertrator' is bull shit. Have some faith and love in people. Mistrust and suspicion will only breed more mistrust and suspicion. Beware of creating self fulfilling prophesies. This is just judgemental and unhelpful thinking, especaily when sex offenders are told this by everyone. How the fuck are they supposed to behave then if nobody wants to give them a chance and is always second guessing them?
The best thing to do is to be vigilent, educate, always be honest and encourage honesty and communicate with your child. By all means keep an eye on your child, but it is not necessary to judge and label others based on suspicions.
I would not worry if i had a sex offender living next door. They are still human and worthy of love and a second chance.
People may think Im naive and stupid. Ive had my fair shair of pain and negativity and for a long time I looked at others with suspicion and paronia because of the things that happened to me. As soon as I let go of my hate, opened myself to grace and forgiveness- all this negativity disappeared and Im no longer concerned that bad things will happen to me. I do not fear for my daughter at all. I love her, and the best thing i can do to 'protect' her is to love her, respect her, educate her, teach her trust and honesty and let her be the person she is. She doesnt need protection, nor do I. We dont need protection and security, we need trust, knowledge and love. You cannot control other people or the world, but you have power over your own life and choices.
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First of all, in this sort of topic; 'permissible by society / people' and 'objectively right' is a two very different concept. (add that both has different values and ideals hidden underneath and... even more complex issue.)
If talking about the former, I would say acting on your suspicion is a very wise thing to do -- to a point. It may be as simple as taking a mental note (if not a picture) of the suspect and then RAN AWAY FAST; it may involve politely asking (with all the potential of conflict / victim blaming / "No I'm not doing anything you cray cray lady! And then?), it may be as necessary as yelling scratching and tasing and going "NOT MY DAUGHTER YOU BITCH". But there are no certain way / line where everyone is going to agree on your behavior and actions. That's exactly the use of laws, isn't it? To put limits-- but at the same time, to give permissions for those to act upon their feelings and thoughts. Fe~
If talking about the latter, I would suggest to dissect, or if you were willing, to expose why and how you were thinking and saying what you think and what you say. Because ultimately we're talking about what -should- happen. It'd be better for other participants to understand where are you coming from, so if others are disagreeing, at least they can disagree on the basis of truths, as opposed to how you're coming across as.
Other than that, I have no other comments.
[MENTION=4956]Asarya[/MENTION] : From what I understood, some people will react VERY differently when it's a) someone else, b) someone as important as their child, and c) someone who has lesser ability to protect themselves from the evils of the world. Most of the time I saw these sort of things not as "OMG YOU SEXUAL MOLESTER DIE DIE IN A FIRE" but "OMG YOU SEXUAL MOLESTER STAY AWAY FROM MY DAUGHTER".
If I can say anything, I bet the paranoia has ravaged their insides worse than anyone else.
And there exists another problem of the 'line' ; the exact points on where would the line of sympathy, love, and understanding ends are different inbetween people.
If talking about the former, I would say acting on your suspicion is a very wise thing to do -- to a point. It may be as simple as taking a mental note (if not a picture) of the suspect and then RAN AWAY FAST; it may involve politely asking (with all the potential of conflict / victim blaming / "No I'm not doing anything you cray cray lady! And then?), it may be as necessary as yelling scratching and tasing and going "NOT MY DAUGHTER YOU BITCH". But there are no certain way / line where everyone is going to agree on your behavior and actions. That's exactly the use of laws, isn't it? To put limits-- but at the same time, to give permissions for those to act upon their feelings and thoughts. Fe~
If talking about the latter, I would suggest to dissect, or if you were willing, to expose why and how you were thinking and saying what you think and what you say. Because ultimately we're talking about what -should- happen. It'd be better for other participants to understand where are you coming from, so if others are disagreeing, at least they can disagree on the basis of truths, as opposed to how you're coming across as.
Other than that, I have no other comments.
[MENTION=4956]Asarya[/MENTION] : From what I understood, some people will react VERY differently when it's a) someone else, b) someone as important as their child, and c) someone who has lesser ability to protect themselves from the evils of the world. Most of the time I saw these sort of things not as "OMG YOU SEXUAL MOLESTER DIE DIE IN A FIRE" but "OMG YOU SEXUAL MOLESTER STAY AWAY FROM MY DAUGHTER".
If I can say anything, I bet the paranoia has ravaged their insides worse than anyone else.
And there exists another problem of the 'line' ; the exact points on where would the line of sympathy, love, and understanding ends are different inbetween people.
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I think that the idea that random strangers should be restricted in their movements and activities, simply due to your suspicions and without evidence, sums up your mentality and the quality of your character perfectly.
It is the mentality of a weak, inferior mind who views every difference as a threat and that of a person who is complicit in amoral and ultimately selfish hypo-agency.
If you more ethically aim to establish punishment for crime where it has occured but also to establish no penalty where no crime has occured then you are worth talking to because you have learned the concept of justice and fairness, but you aren't.
Past displays of your behaviour have shown that. Therefore, it would be easier if you simply took your collusive and self serving hypo-agency anywhere else.
Ok NEVER did I say the above boldened quote. I didn't say the man couldn't go down to the beach...I just said that he scared me and my friends and we wanted to get away. There's nothing wrong with removing yourself from a situation you are highly uncomftorable with. We didn't leave the beach because of him, we passed him on our way out, he was actually blocking our way staring at my kid and so we got out of there as fast as we could.
I did not yell at the man, I was not rude to the man, I did not accuse him of anything about his creepy behaviour. I did not call the police and try and make a scene. I did not run down to the beach and warn all of the mothers about my suspicions about this man. I didn't even talk to my friends about it (other than the ones tehre witnessing), I mentioned it in an anonymous forum where absoloutely NO ONES reputation is being damaged. It felt like a safe place to share the experience due to anonymity, clearly I was mistaken as recounting the story has caused so much unneccessary grief.
There is nothing wrong with my character, thank you all the same. I am a good person, and your trying to run people with feelings into the ground is coming off as slightly pathetic. There has been no actual harm done to this man, so you getting worked up over it is a waste of energy. My job as a parent is to protect my child, if I feel a situation feels wrong, I have every right to remove my child from it.
Actually, thanks to [MENTION=5145]AKM[/MENTION] s courage to speak out, I feel I might just do the same. I was sexually abused for years as a child. I do NOT see child molester behind evey bush, in fact I've never even called someone a possible paedo before now. But...I know the way I Was looked at as a child, and if I see someone looking at my child in the same manner damn right I am going to do whatever I feel is necessary to protect my child. (In this case it was leaving fast and posting about it on a random forum where no one is at all going to be hurt by it....why you trippin??)
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[MENTION=4822]Matt3737[/MENTION] regarding date rape -- I have to disagree with you. Sure, the scenario you described does happen, but I think saying that it doesn't count purely for that is wrong. Just think about hte psychological effects on the victims of actual date rape? Victims of rape have a hard enough time feeling like it was their fault.
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I thought you didn't want to talk about this anymore?
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Yet random strangers are continually restricted in their movements in our society. An example: A store with security cameras, or security, a staff only area. There they go, monitoring poor innocent people, assuming they may be criminals. How dare they! Nice kind people can't innocently just roam where they please or use the staff toilet if they need to go. Outrageous!
I think that the idea that random strangers should be restricted in their movements and activities, simply due to your suspicions and without evidence, sums up your mentality and the quality of your character perfectly.
It is the mentality of a weak, inferior mind who views every difference as a threat and that of a person who is complicit in amoral and ultimately selfish hypo-agency.
Now here in the real world we constantly evaluate people for signs of danger. I've been often mistaken for someone dangerous because of my subculture style. (I'm aware of it. If I don't want to risk a reaction I'll dress accordingly.)
If you claim you don't, well I don't buy it. Someone walks into a bank with stockings on their head and a gun in hand=danger. Some unhinged looking adult takes an unusual amount of interest in your child and looks aroused=danger. Wouldn't want to be your kid if you miss obvious signs.
I think you're just wanting to "shake the boat" a bit, to correct a perceived "intolerance". In this case though a spade really is a spade. It's not rocket science. I don't care if you're INFJ, ESTP, MOM or DAD, you KNOW when someone's acting suspicious. Kids' safety trumps strangers' feelings/ freedom to stare at children and have boners any day of the week.
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[MENTION=4956]Asarya[/MENTION] I have to strongly disagree with you on this one. I've been in situations where I've confronted people who are sexual predators and although I can (now after years of some kind of spiritual soul searching) say that maybe they don't deserve to be fried over eternal fires and slow burn for aeons and with enormous effort can feel just a tiny minute speckle of compassion for them, I would never in a million years give one the benefit of doubt and let them around my children.
I think it's all well and good in theory, but once it's personal it's much more of a bitter pill to swallow. I actual practice I'd stick sexual predators in facilities for the criminally insane and might throw way the key. I'm aware they are most often victims themselves, but the ones I know are truly repeat offenders and a real ongoing danger to people around them. Being secluded is to me the karma of their actions.
EDIT: Spiritually speaking it's also our job to set boundaries around people who would harm themselves by harming others. True grace and liberation comes from within and it does not depend on others' actions or where you are put. External events are in accordance to karma. In the material world we try to act in a way that's a reflection of "divine law". To my personal understanding having compassion (which I do lack for this particular offense) does not mean a person should be out of compassion guaranteed to have the liberties that people who have not committed such things have.They may need protection from themselves too.
I think it's all well and good in theory, but once it's personal it's much more of a bitter pill to swallow. I actual practice I'd stick sexual predators in facilities for the criminally insane and might throw way the key. I'm aware they are most often victims themselves, but the ones I know are truly repeat offenders and a real ongoing danger to people around them. Being secluded is to me the karma of their actions.
EDIT: Spiritually speaking it's also our job to set boundaries around people who would harm themselves by harming others. True grace and liberation comes from within and it does not depend on others' actions or where you are put. External events are in accordance to karma. In the material world we try to act in a way that's a reflection of "divine law". To my personal understanding having compassion (which I do lack for this particular offense) does not mean a person should be out of compassion guaranteed to have the liberties that people who have not committed such things have.They may need protection from themselves too.
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InvisibleJim
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I don't, but I do have a right to defend myself.
I was referring to Stu, who I quoted. Because me and Stu really don't like each other.
I'm exceedingly cheerful otherwise, just eternally bemused.
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I was referring to Stu, who I quoted. Because me and Stu really don't like each other.
I'm exceedingly cheerful otherwise, just eternally bemused.
Really? I never would have guessed!
Can we just shake hands and be friends and get back to the srs law business?
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Really? I never would have guessed!
Of course. Not a problem!
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Isolation, if necessary, for their own safety and of others. But the hatred is not necessary. Hatred for the sake of hatred is self indulgent and will hurt the self and prevent one from growing. I still think its possible for anyone to learn, and most mental illnesses to be managed if not healed.
I dont really know what I would do in the situation where the person was in the room with my child. I spoke to him, after about 7 years of not seeing or hearing from him at all and I could not find it in my heart to hate him. I was still angry, but the bitterness had gone. I think I would be okay to have that person there with my daughter but i dont know. i dont really know how I would feel and what i would do. But i know what I want to do and how I would want to act- with love and forgiveness. That doesnt mean I have to be negligent with my daughter and just pretend like nothing has ever happened. There are levels of trust, and trust and respect have to be earned. I dont even let one of my best friends babysit because she is so self absorbed and clumsy!
From a spiritual perspective I dont think it is our place to pass judgement. The person will recieve their own judgement and punishment by the consequences of their actions on the rest of their life and their spiritual health. It does not mean these people are doomed and not worthy of love or compassion. They are just people. I agree, setting boundaries is healthy for everybody, and is an important way to love ourselves and others. These people probably do need protection from themselves. It hard to understand how a human/soul/spirit can get to a place like that where they do such vile things. To stop these things from happening we need to find the root of the problem and address it.
I know its not a popular position and I dont expect anyone to support this but I do think that these people are worthy of love and deserving of compassion. Im sorry to everyone that has ever been abused and I think as a culture and as communities we can come together to heal these issues. These issues hurt everybody involved
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All humans deserve compassion and love. I agree with you there.
As for people who assault and abuse children - most are not "cured" by the current means here in the US. Just because you go to prison doesn't mean you're actually getting rehabilitated. Paying the time for doing the crime doesn't mean shyte...
As for the registry here - it's the typical "one size fits all" rule our government pushes on us...so they include any and all who were convicted of any action remotely connect to sex. I've heard some really sad stories about persons who were convicted in small towns just so they could get rid of them or they didn't like their family. Some are completely false. Then there was the story I heard from a professor who had a private practice. She asked her client - in prison - why he was molesting(having sex) with his 7 year old sister and he replied with complete honesty - everyone in the family did it while he was growing up and that he had no idea it was wrong.
The mental illness of a person who preys upon children is insidiously woven into their mind. It is most likely as you say - abuse was done to them when they were young. Yet - from what I've seen - conventional methods to change those minds - prison and Cognitive Behavioral Therapy - do not work...and that's what the government dictates.
I think everyone deserves a chance. Actions speak louder than words as they say. But as much as I hate the idea of putting personal information out there for all to see - I feel mothers have the right to know if a convicted child abuser is living down the street from them.
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Yes our current methods of punishment and rehabilitation are certainly not working. We need cultural change. The same with the life destroying issue of domestic violence. These issues are complex and deserve special time, energy and effort into preventing them from happening in the first place and than treating the issue for all parties effected when it does happen.
These things are rarely about bad people doing bad things, they are about culture, ignorance, lack of love, selfishness and fear. However, as much as we can empathise and be compassionate, people still need to be held accountable for their actions. That is what it takes to live in a functioning community and to learn. We need to work together to solve these problems as a community.
Regarding Cognitive Behavioral therapy, i think that it can be effective but it is very dependant on the skill and experience of the therapist which makes it a hit and miss thing. I hate to say this but when i was studying psychology I was shuddering that some of my fellow students would one day go on to be therapists. I still shudder to think. Its not that they wernt intelligent, its just gthat many of them didnt understand or were unable or unwilling to really read people. Conventional methods such as pharmocotherapy and various psycotherapies do seem unhelpful and ineffective. I know there is a way to help these people, I just dont know what it is. I dont want to just lock them up and throw away the key though. I would hate it if someone did that to me or someone I loved. i do understand, however, that treatment is very costly and citizens and governments are understandably hesitant and repulsed by the idea of putting tax payer money into such a cause. That is a dilemna I can not resolve and it leaves me a loss. Ofcourse life is priceless, but it also has a measurable and quantifiable cost to the community. And as much as life is precious, it should be lived free. If someone has to spend the rest of their life incarcerated or drugged up like zombies, it almost seems more merciful to let them choose death. It is just so hard to understand it all and work it out. But yes- like you said- all humans deserve love and compassion. Its just hard to know how that will translate and manifest in this regard
If the sentence is not long enough, we should either kill them or try to rehabilitate them (I don't know if the latter is even effective.) What we are doing now is essentially double jeopardy, which is unconstitutional. If we can break one constitutional right "for the children" than what is to stop us from breaking others? I'd prefer them dead to having my constitutional rights stamped on as those rights become progressively more meaningless. Is this a very selfish opinion? yes, but so are the opinions of everyone else on this particular topic.
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I admire your compassion for sex offenders, @Asarya .
I don't disagree that many of these people are mentally ill or have been abused themselves and never learned to healthfully cope--
But I think that giving them a second chance is irresponsible when we barely understand them. I agree that we should work to rehabilitate them--but we aren't at that point yet.
We keep giving them these minimal sentences and then they're out doing what they did all over again. It's too risky and dangerous. It seems like its a sort of addiction for them.
If you put enough whiskey under a recovering alcoholic's nose for enough time, chances are pretty good they are going to take that sip.
I think it's the same for rapists and child molesters.
Maybe it's because victimizing others is their means of coping just like alcohol is the alcoholic's means, and we don't really know what methods work in advancing them towards recovery, but even if they do manage to recover, they are always at risk for relapsing.
I agree that life should be lived free. That's why people who might be victimized need to be protected from those who seek to harm them.
When you victimize someone else, you lose your privilege for privacy and freedom. We can't cater to those who damage people because idealistically, it seems fair.
It's irresponsible. I think that the way many places in the US handle sex offenders is irresponsible. 3-8 years in prison for raping or molesting someone isn't going to "cure" you.
If anything, our prison system just makes people more sick.
People who commit crimes like this need to be placed in a secure mental health facility for the rest of their lives. But then that begs the question, what about people in actual prison?
If sexual assault is the result of mental illness, then what other crimes aren't?
I don't disagree that many of these people are mentally ill or have been abused themselves and never learned to healthfully cope--
But I think that giving them a second chance is irresponsible when we barely understand them. I agree that we should work to rehabilitate them--but we aren't at that point yet.
We keep giving them these minimal sentences and then they're out doing what they did all over again. It's too risky and dangerous. It seems like its a sort of addiction for them.
If you put enough whiskey under a recovering alcoholic's nose for enough time, chances are pretty good they are going to take that sip.
I think it's the same for rapists and child molesters.
Maybe it's because victimizing others is their means of coping just like alcohol is the alcoholic's means, and we don't really know what methods work in advancing them towards recovery, but even if they do manage to recover, they are always at risk for relapsing.
I agree that life should be lived free. That's why people who might be victimized need to be protected from those who seek to harm them.
When you victimize someone else, you lose your privilege for privacy and freedom. We can't cater to those who damage people because idealistically, it seems fair.
It's irresponsible. I think that the way many places in the US handle sex offenders is irresponsible. 3-8 years in prison for raping or molesting someone isn't going to "cure" you.
If anything, our prison system just makes people more sick.
People who commit crimes like this need to be placed in a secure mental health facility for the rest of their lives. But then that begs the question, what about people in actual prison?
If sexual assault is the result of mental illness, then what other crimes aren't?
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WellNoWonder
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I'm gonna put my toe in here and risk getting burned.
I had this same experience with my daughter at a McDonald's Playplace, a really fucking creepy ass man sitting in there with no kids and his double cheeseburgers, then as he left, made some comments on her being beautiful, but not in a friendly tone, but in a suggestive old perverted ass man tone, and I went immediately into defense mode. IDGAF, you harass my kids, then I am automatically on level 10.
And quite frankly, about 80% of the women I know were molested as children, and most didn't tell authorities but we told each other... and those who did were accused of lying or enjoying the shit. I was accused of lying, and he went on to molest more children.
I had this same experience with my daughter at a McDonald's Playplace, a really fucking creepy ass man sitting in there with no kids and his double cheeseburgers, then as he left, made some comments on her being beautiful, but not in a friendly tone, but in a suggestive old perverted ass man tone, and I went immediately into defense mode. IDGAF, you harass my kids, then I am automatically on level 10.
And quite frankly, about 80% of the women I know were molested as children, and most didn't tell authorities but we told each other... and those who did were accused of lying or enjoying the shit. I was accused of lying, and he went on to molest more children.
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I have a buddy who had a 'questionable' experience. He had been brought up home-schooled and was a little socially inept, and I don't know the specifics actually but sufficed to say he had a completely different take on the event. He didn't even understand why she stopped talking to him, and then one day she got up in front of thousands of people at some anti-rape demonstration or something and named him by name in front of the entire crowd. A few months later he was so overcome by guilt and shame that he attempted suicide and ended up with permanent kidney damage.
He's not a predator and he definitely doesn't have a pathology… it was a one-time thing and he most certainly learned a very very hard lesson. I think that there's a danger in labeling people… and I'm not even sure if the public registry is even about saving potential victims as much as shaming the perpetrators into isolation, ostracism and basically a living death. I don't think it's at all effective as a deterrent, either. With the really serious crimes then I'm all for it but putting everyone on that-- even 15 year olds who download child porn or people who made a mistake that they won't repeat-- is a bit much.