Law and the Sex Offenders Register

[Apone]

If anything, our prison system just makes people more sick.

It makes things worse for sure… this is probably a problem without a solution.

But they do have a special place for pedophiles:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NpjvRrPg9J4&feature=related

It's all kind of a nightmare.

 

[Untitled]

People who commit crimes like this need to be placed in a secure mental health facility for the rest of their lives. But then that begs the question, what about people in actual prison?
If sexual assault is the result of mental illness, then what other crimes aren't?

Sexual assault on a grown person is to me a hate crime in essence, much like a hate crime based on race or religion etc. it's a hate crime, pure and simple. A way for a sadistic person to first refuse seeing a person as an individual and as a representativce of what they hate, be it women or gays etc., then sadistically demeaning them in a sexual way. I think pedophiles are just very distorted and twisted. That said many pedophiles are actually also in relationships with adults at the same time and tend to also have had run ins with the law because of domestic violence or sexual violence towards adults as well, as I understand it.
Date rape....it's just rape. Never in my life would it even occur to me to force myself on a man if he suddenly decided he didn't really want to be intimate after all, no matter what had transpired before, or abuse one while he'd be sleeping. Where is the confusion here???
Personally I think the attitude that it could even be "less bad" or a "grey area" just speaks volumes about how female friendly our culture really is.

 

[5r6jhd]

I have a buddy who had a 'questionable' experience. He had been brought up home-schooled and was a little socially inept, and I don't know the specifics actually but sufficed to say he had a completely different take on the event. He didn't even understand why she stopped talking to him, and then one day she got up in front of thousands of people at some anti-rape demonstration or something and named him by name in front of the entire crowd. A few months later he was so overcome by guilt and shame that he attempted suicide and ended up with permanent kidney damage.

He's not a predator and he definitely doesn't have a pathology… it was a one-time thing and he most certainly learned a very very hard lesson. I think that there's a danger in labeling people… and I'm not even sure if the public registry is even about saving potential victims as much as shaming the perpetrators into isolation, ostracism and basically a living death. I don't think it's at all effective as a deterrent, either. With the really serious crimes then I'm all for it but putting everyone on that-- even 15 year olds who download child porn or people who made a mistake that they won't repeat-- is a bit much.

I'm not disagreeing with you in one sense...It's a shame some guys are falsely accused for sure. I have been in situations where the guy got the wrong idea, and I was mad as hell, I was upset, and it messed me up some...but ultimately I knew the person wasn't a predator and although they were selfish and immature, really did mean me no harm. Unfortunately, people can be immature and mishandle a situation.


People need to be more careful when it comes to sexual situations...theres nothing wrong with talking a bit first! What one person may deem ok, another might be totally freaked out by. You never know a persons history and what might upset them/trigger them.

However, to say that anything related to "date rape" is wrong and "a bit much" is insane and morally wrong in my personal opinion. I totally agree with [MENTION=4982]Reverie[/MENTION] ...forget the "date" its just plain rape.

I agree with [MENTION=4956]Asarya[/MENTION] I think it was? She was saying she doesn't think people should be hating. I agree, I don't think we should hate these people. There's too much hate in the world, it does no one any good.

 

[Quiet]

I admire your compassion for sex offenders, @Asarya .
I don't disagree that many of these people are mentally ill or have been abused themselves and never learned to healthfully cope--
But I think that giving them a second chance is irresponsible when we barely understand them. I agree that we should work to rehabilitate them--but we aren't at that point yet.
We keep giving them these minimal sentences and then they're out doing what they did all over again. It's too risky and dangerous. It seems like its a sort of addiction for them.
If you put enough whiskey under a recovering alcoholic's nose for enough time, chances are pretty good they are going to take that sip.
I think it's the same for rapists and child molesters.
Maybe it's because victimizing others is their means of coping just like alcohol is the alcoholic's means, and we don't really know what methods work in advancing them towards recovery, but even if they do manage to recover, they are always at risk for relapsing.

I agree that life should be lived free. That's why people who might be victimized need to be protected from those who seek to harm them.
When you victimize someone else, you lose your privilege for privacy and freedom. We can't cater to those who damage people because idealistically, it seems fair.
It's irresponsible. I think that the way many places in the US handle sex offenders is irresponsible. 3-8 years in prison for raping or molesting someone isn't going to "cure" you.
If anything, our prison system just makes people more sick.

People who commit crimes like this need to be placed in a secure mental health facility for the rest of their lives. But then that begs the question, what about people in actual prison?
If sexual assault is the result of mental illness, then what other crimes aren't?

Hey [MENTION=564]acd[/MENTION]
our prison sytems in Oz suck too. I respect that you have a different position, and I appreciate that most people will. I surprised myself by how passionately i feel about this, especaily considering 2 years ago I wouldnt have even considered it.

Yes clearly the current laws and procedures arent working, because so many people are re-offending. I think that someone is more likely to re-offend if everyone around them and their culture keeps telling them they will. We dont have to victims to our circumstances or to our vices. People dont just develop vices just because, it happens over time and there is a reason behind them- take alcohol for example- al alcoholics are different and my drink for different reasons. So they cant all be treated in the same way. Sure their drinking behaviour clearly has to change, but whats more important is that the root of the problem is addressed and resolved. It is the same for sex offenders- they can not all be lumped together. Why are they doing this? What are they trying to achieve? What do they understand. From a completely spiritual perspective, I have to wonder why whis happens and why these people are here. There is so much we dont understand and some if it just seems too nasty and nefarious to even contemplate, but we have to try if we want it to stop.

Short prison sentences are pretty stupid. I know in Australia, people that get done for rape or child abuse get hurt pretty bad in prison by the other inmates. Many people see this as some kind of justice. i am ambivalent about it. Many people that end up in prison have been abused so the sight of these people literally sicken them and they just go ape on them. Some sexual offenderd have to be isolated for their own safety, which is something that costs more so it pisses citizens off, but others think that other criminals shouldnt have to put up with them anyway. I dont think that prison really solves anything except isolating them for a short period of time in a hateful environment. The problems have still not been addressed.

Whats much worse is that the majority of sex offenders have never been reported. My close friend works in domestic violence support and the amount of cases that cant be tried because of insufficient evidence or because people are too scared to speak out is extremely high. This is very sad, because no one receives any help and the cycle of abuse continues in the next generation. It is heart breaking what a child of 5 might think is normal based on the abuse they have been exposed to in their short life. There was a case recently where the child of 5 was trying to strangle her mother and her younger sibling. What the fuck! But thats all that this unfortunate child has seen.

The main reason I am against a public sex offenders register is because I dont see how it really helps anyone. What are you going to do if there is an offender around the corner? Are you going to move? Are you going to kick the person out of the community? Where should they go then? Once we put a label on someone, it defines them and they play that role. How is anyone ever going to have a chance at normal life if no one wants them to live anywhere near them, they cant get a job, cant have friends, cant have a family and people judge them even before they meet them? Some things are everyones business- what people in the political sphere and our governments do. But for the rest of us, even criminals, I think we deserve some kind of privacy and the opportunity to try again. I really dont believe once and offender always an offender. We have free will. We may be told through culture that we dont but I am convinced that we do.

The problem with rehabilitation is that it very expensive and requires a lot of effort, time and committment from the paitent and the therapist. I dont how much resources can be justifiably spent on such an issue when there are so many more things that require our attention. I would much prefer to address the issue of more education and support for child rearing, community and family support and early education- to prevent another cycle of generation abuse from happening again.

I was also thinking- if offenders are going to have so much stigma and no chance of normality in society, perhaps they could volunteer to be exiled in a safe isolated location. There is still much they can do to be productive if they choose and perhaps this would be the most humane option. It is a very complex issue.
Most people are going to think this is stupid and crazy - but here we go- I also think its possible to help these people (and anyone else) through working through chakral healing. Yes it might sound like new age tripe to some people, but humans have been aware of and studied chakras for throusands of years. By working with them to open and balance each chakra, heal the issues associated with them and helping them to find that connection to Love, I think these people can definately be rehabiliated. For anyone that hasnt heard of this or doesnt think its possible, experiment for yourself- there is a lot to learn and a lot of joy and peace to be experienced. This kind of healing does require huge personal commitment from the individual. The old adage is still true- you cant help someone that wont help themselves.

We really need cultural change. That is the most important thing. To strengthen our communities and safety net of the most vulnerable. These problems are not cretaed in a vacuum, they are grown in the matrix of our culture, and all need to work together and support each other to stop these things from happening. People need to be able to share their feelings and thoughts in a safe environment and not be hated for it, but listened to. We all need that, someone to listen to us, believe us and support us, regardless of who we are. Kind of like what [MENTION=5297]Neverwhere[/MENTION] was able to do on this forum- post here and communicate about what was happening for her. We need much more of that- communication and honesty, and we need love.

 

[Trifoilum]

One biggest part I would like to point out is that the situation aren't stasis. The amount of perpetrators and victims, aren't stasis. They increase, day by day by second by hour by minute by day. When at this moment as I'm typing, some child out there might have been experiencing one such experience, right now. The trauma piles on, and I think the first thing people are trying to reach is speed. Urgency. For better or worse.

People; governments, parents, childrens, social institutions and groups are working to treat criminals (I'm speaking in a very broad term here) humanely... But at the same time, they need to prevent it from happening again.

At least, this is what I'm thinking. :|

Alternatively, I am asking this question for you; per country and city and town and family and life; with a limited resources, people and effort, which would be better to pursue first? Prevention; or restoration?

And this is among 389274827330489357839*3473478347389 other problems and bullshits people are dealing with everyday. :|
So...yeah. Hard things. >_>;

My post is passive, and my attitude in regards of this matter -is- passive. Too reliant and ....waiting for things to be better. I apologize for that; but I'd like to offer this perspective to enrich this discussion. Making things better is not as easy as what it sounds. A lot of the solutions presented around here, while definitely well intentioned and thorough, as much as I can get; they have to work under the condition that there are only this one problem to consider; a closed case, so to speak.

 

[hush]

the INFJ in me has to stick up for the little guy. Pun intended, but still seriously suspicious.

There's an INFJ in you???? I would get that checked out.

Could lead to ulcers or something.

 

[5r6jhd]

There's an INFJ in you???? I would get that checked out.

Could lead to ulcers or something.

Seriously, sounds worse than cancer!

 

[the]

There's an INFJ in you???? I would get that checked out.

Could lead to ulcers or something.

So far it has lead to a sad heart and paranoia.

 

[5r6jhd]

So far it has lead to a sad heart and paranoia.

There's medication for that, you know.

 

[Kanamori]

They exist here in the states, though I don't know any of the specifics really. I think the registries should exist, but they are probably implemented too broadly, and they can be harmful because of that -- which is something that any State should avoid, obv. Vigilante stuff that they might inspire is troubling...


Anyway, the recidivism rate for sex offenders is significantly lower than for other felonies/seriouscrimes.
http://blogs.wsj.com/numbersguy/how-likely-are-sex-offenders-to-repeat-their-crimes-258/

http://www.nytimes.com/1996/09/01/weekinreview/the-many-myths-about-sex-offenders.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_offender#Recidivism


http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2004/07/12/MNG6F7K0UF1.DTL

 

[acd]

Sexual predators are more then criminals, they are pathological. In a perfect world they would be treated and if not made whole, then they would be removed from any situation where they would lose control and prey on someone.

This is not a "Right" vs "Wrong" issue, it is a mental health issue. If you are a proven sexual predator then your rights, to a large degree, are nullified.

test.

 

[CindyLou]

haha when you put it like that it sounds pervy! No, he walked around the corner and you could see his entire profile, not that I was honing in on his package!! His behaviour was creepy, so we were still eyeing him up as we were walking away because he was walking backwards down a very steep set of stairs watching my daughter, and that time i did catcht the package area....but i think anyone would if someones got a boner in public!

Trust yourself. Trust that voice and feeling.

 

[CindyLou]

Yes our current methods of punishment and rehabilitation are certainly not working. We need cultural change. The same with the life destroying issue of domestic violence. These issues are complex and deserve special time, energy and effort into preventing them from happening in the first place and than treating the issue for all parties effected when it does happen.

These things are rarely about bad people doing bad things, they are about culture, ignorance, lack of love, selfishness and fear. However, as much as we can empathise and be compassionate, people still need to be held accountable for their actions. That is what it takes to live in a functioning community and to learn. We need to work together to solve these problems as a community.

Regarding Cognitive Behavioral therapy, i think that it can be effective but it is very dependant on the skill and experience of the therapist which makes it a hit and miss thing. I hate to say this but when i was studying psychology I was shuddering that some of my fellow students would one day go on to be therapists. I still shudder to think. Its not that they wernt intelligent, its just gthat many of them didnt understand or were unable or unwilling to really read people. Conventional methods such as pharmocotherapy and various psycotherapies do seem unhelpful and ineffective. I know there is a way to help these people, I just dont know what it is. I dont want to just lock them up and throw away the key though. I would hate it if someone did that to me or someone I loved. i do understand, however, that treatment is very costly and citizens and governments are understandably hesitant and repulsed by the idea of putting tax payer money into such a cause. That is a dilemna I can not resolve and it leaves me a loss. Ofcourse life is priceless, but it also has a measurable and quantifiable cost to the community. And as much as life is precious, it should be lived free. If someone has to spend the rest of their life incarcerated or drugged up like zombies, it almost seems more merciful to let them choose death. It is just so hard to understand it all and work it out. But yes- like you said- all humans deserve love and compassion. Its just hard to know how that will translate and manifest in this regard

Locking them up and throwing away the key IS compassion if you can see the big picture. You're saving them from themselves. Like you said, it hard to know how or what to do. They do deserve compassion, love and forgiveness but sometimes that doesn't always look as pretty as everyone wants it to.

Children who are molested are damaged for life. I don't care what anyone says. You condition a kid in that manner and its very difficult for them to experience love, physically like everyone else can. Fucks em up. You know what that amount of shame does to a kid? We have to protect the innocent too.

 

[Quiet]

Locking them up and throwing away the key IS compassion if you can see the big picture. You're saving them from themselves. Like you said, it hard to know how or what to do. They do deserve compassion, love and forgiveness but sometimes that doesn't always look as pretty as everyone wants it to.

Children who are molested are damaged for life. I don't care what anyone says. You condition a kid in that manner and its very difficult for them to experience love, physically like everyone else can. Fucks em up. You know what that amount of shame does to a kid? We have to protect the innocent too.

Hey CindyLou, I get where you are coming from. From a practical, pragmatic perspective based on exactly how the world is now- a narrative based on fear, security and protection- it makes perfect sense and would be the most compassionate thing to just lock them away and throw away the key.

I appreciate your sentiment, it is harder for me to see and know where to draw the line than it is for others.

From a bigger spiritual picture, I dont see it is as simple. We are all God's children and I believe we are here to learn, and to learn Love. Forgiveness is a big part of love, forgiveness of ourselves and others. This doesnt mean that actions dont have consequences and that we shouldnt be held accountable, but it does mean that we can learn from our mistakes and let go.

I dont believe that kids that are molested have to be damaged for life. I think there is always hope for all of us and we can all learn to love. However, I do think that our main concern should be stopping these things from happening in the first place, rather than dealing with the problems after they occur. There is much we can do together as a society to support young families. I completely agree that the early developmental stage for children is crucial and conditions much of our future experience. We need to be there for children and their parents as a community and stop these generational abuse cylces by nipping it in the bud.

People that abuse children were probably abused themselves, or they are very sad, disturbed, ignorant individuals that do not understand the concept of love at all. This is going to sound wierd, but I believe that when people hurt others, they hurt themselves as well, on a physical and soul level. This in turns hurts all of us as a human family. The only way for the cycle of suffering to end is when we can learn, forgive and learn to love ourselves and others.

 

[CindyLou]

Hey CindyLou, I get where you are coming from. From a practical, pragmatic perspective based on exactly how the world is now- a narrative based on fear, security and protection- it makes perfect sense and would be the most compassionate thing to just lock them away and throw away the key.

I appreciate your sentiment, it is harder for me to see and know where to draw the line than it is for others.

From a bigger spiritual picture, I dont see it is as simple. We are all God's children and I believe we are here to learn, and to learn Love. Forgiveness is a big part of love, forgiveness of ourselves and others. This doesnt mean that actions dont have consequences and that we shouldnt be held accountable, but it does mean that we can learn from our mistakes and let go.

I dont believe that kids that are molested have to be damaged for life. I think there is always hope for all of us and we can all learn to love. However, I do think that our main concern should be stopping these things from happening in the first place, rather than dealing with the problems after they occur. There is much we can do together as a society to support young families. I completely agree that the early developmental stage for children is crucial and conditions much of our future experience. We need to be there for children and their parents as a community and stop these generational abuse cylces by nipping it in the bud.

People that abuse children were probably abused themselves, or they are very sad, disturbed, ignorant individuals that do not understand the concept of love at all. This is going to sound wierd, but I believe that when people hurt others, they hurt themselves as well, on a physical and soul level. This in turns hurts all of us as a human family. The only way for the cycle of suffering to end is when we can learn, forgive and learn to love ourselves and others.

No, they don't understand love and they screw it up for the innocent that don't have a chance. I completely agree with you on the forgiveness part, but they are not just "sick" individuals. Most of the time this is more than just an "urge" or just physical stuff. I don't know if your spirituality is Christian and if you've studied the characteristics of evil in the bible? Regardless if you're a Christian or not I do think that the bible did lay out what type of people were "evil" and the characteristics of those people to warn us to stay away and to recognize those people that will infect civil society. These people have the characteristics of evil. They use those tools on the most innocent to manipulate them into trusting them for their own sexual gratification. It is the most warped, twisted way one human being can prey on another. Its one thing to have urges; its entirely another to manipulate and mind fvck a little innocent kid over and over again so you can get off. Until the prison system is less about "punishment" and more about "rehabilitation" and they can recognize what a rehabilitated person looks and acts like, then we have to lock them up and throw away the key to protect civility. A rehabilitated person is characterized in the bible too, but since no one wants to recognize spiritual aspects of life anymore...just the physical...this stuff is going to keep happening. I wouldn't be comfortable with any other punishment for a child abuser/molester other than getting them out of society until they showed the signs of rehabilitation.

Should the victim forgive their abuser? Absolutely. Part of that is recognizing that those people are very very sick and sad people. But those of us in the position to protect (moms and dads) should be on the lookout for these people and ready to make judgments in a second. That feeling that the OP got, that was a God given warning system...a protection system if you will. I believe she should listen to it and completely ignore advice to do otherwise.

 

[Quiet]

[MENTION=4871]CindyLou[/MENTION]. Thanks for sharing and explaining what you feel. Hopefully one day all this will make a lot more sense and we will be able to prevent it happening. until then lets be vigilent and pray that all our kids will be happy and grow up in a safe, peaceful environment.

 

[bamf]

1. Sexual crimes are not for sexual gratification, but rather power. They disempower the victim and empower the attacker. It's not about love; it's not about sex; it's about control.

2. Writing these people off as evil and locking them up and throwing away the key ignores the root of the problem. If sexual assault and related crimes are crimes of power, we need to look at power dynamics in our society, examine why they exist, and work on solving them. People are not just programed machines that work on a good/bad switch. There usually is some form of "rational" (to the attacker) thought that goes into their actions. Criminals are not just acting on instinct and urges.

3. The victim absolutely never has to forgive their attacker. The victim's well-being is more important than their attacker's gaining of forgiveness. If the victim can forgive their attacker and still heal, more power to them. They should never be expected to forgive though. Expecting them to just adds unrealistic expectations to an already deeply affected individual. They don't need more shame by not being able to "forgive".

 

[CindyLou]

1. Sexual crimes are not for sexual gratification, but rather power. They disempower the victim and empower the attacker. It's not about love; it's not about sex; it's about control.

2. Writing these people off as evil and locking them up and throwing away the key ignores the root of the problem. If sexual assault and related crimes are crimes of power, we need to look at power dynamics in our society, examine why they exist, and work on solving them. People are not just programed machines that work on a good/bad switch. There usually is some form of "rational" (to the attacker) thought that goes into their actions. Criminals are not just acting on instinct and urges.

3. The victim absolutely never has to forgive their attacker. The victim's well-being is more important than their attacker's gaining of forgiveness. If the victim can forgive their attacker and still heal, more power to them. They should never be expected to forgive though. Expecting them to just adds unrealistic expectations to an already deeply affected individual. They don't need more shame by not being able to "forgive".

Well, for what its worth, I think that forgiveness is more about the one doing the forgiving. I don't expect anyone to forgive anyone; I know its a difficult thing to do. Forgiving someone that has hurt you in such a manner as something like this is probably one of the most difficult things in life, outside of understanding why we are here, our purpose and why bad things happen to us. I definitely don't expect it, but I don't think that pedophiles are people not "worthy" of forgiveness if that makes any sense.

I don't think that there is a good and bad switch...but I do think there is a line that can be crossed; I do think that there are people that are entirely bad. There is no good in them.

 

[Quiet]

1. Sexual crimes are not for sexual gratification, but rather power. They disempower the victim and empower the attacker. It's not about love; it's not about sex; it's about control.

2. Writing these people off as evil and locking them up and throwing away the key ignores the root of the problem. If sexual assault and related crimes are crimes of power, we need to look at power dynamics in our society, examine why they exist, and work on solving them. People are not just programed machines that work on a good/bad switch. There usually is some form of "rational" (to the attacker) thought that goes into their actions. Criminals are not just acting on instinct and urges.

3. The victim absolutely never has to forgive their attacker. The victim's well-being is more important than their attacker's gaining of forgiveness. If the victim can forgive their attacker and still heal, more power to them. They should never be expected to forgive though. Expecting them to just adds unrealistic expectations to an already deeply affected individual. They don't need more shame by not being able to "forgive".

I agree wholeheartedly with points 1 and 2, but I dont understand the 3rd one. How can someone heal themselves without forgiving those that have hurt them? Holding on to the past, to pain, resentment, anger and suffering just hurts us and makes us bitter. its like holding a glowing coal in your hand or carrying a burden with you. Isnt is much healthier and better for well being to just let go and forgive? One can let go and still learn from an experience. There is no reason to hold on except to hurt yourself and others. I understand it takes a lot of strength to forgive and holding on to hate is the easy way out, but I think ultimately we are all capable of forgiveness and healing. We have just been enculturalised to think that its too hard to forgive and we should hold on to our egos instead.

 

[acd]

I agree wholeheartedly with points 1 and 2, but I dont understand the 3rd one. How can someone heal themselves without forgiving those that have hurt them? Holding on to the past, to pain, resentment, anger and suffering just hurts us and makes us bitter. its like holding a glowing coal in your hand or carrying a burden with you. Isnt is much healthier and better for well being to just let go and forgive? One can let go and still learn from an experience. There is no reason to hold on except to hurt yourself and others. I understand it takes a lot of strength to forgive and holding on to hate is the easy way out, but I think ultimately we are all capable of forgiveness and healing. We have just been enculturalised to think that its too hard to forgive and we should hold on to our egos instead.

That's fine for you.

However, I would hope that you wouldn't talk so much about just "letting go" and learning (what, exactly??) from being sexually victimized...
to someone who is a survivor of an assault, because you would be coming across as very callous and ignorant. No offense.

I don't think anyone is disputing the healing power of forgiveness, but it is solely up to the individual to discover that for themselves.
No amount of telling someone to forgive or even them saying the words, "I forgive" amounts to actual forgiveness.
It is a unique change the occurs deeply within an individual and it should be an empowering one.

I would hope that you would never tell a person who was victimized to let go of their ego and forgive their attacker instead of taking the easy way out. Such a thing would only cause additional emotional trauma.
To me, the language you use is almost accusatory of survivors... "take the easy way out" and "let go of your ego" being the phrases that stand out as well as talk of the victimized hurting others..
I'm curious about that.