Legalizing murder of abortionists

[tfg345i4u5lw]

The babies life has yet to begin

Incorrect.

 

[Galileo]

So it's human, but not a person, why?(by your definition, which isn) also why is it necessary?

Present to me a viable plan to deal with all the unwanted children that would have been aborted and I will agree that it isn't but the plan must not involve forcing the unwilling parent to care for the child or bringing back homes for unwanted children.

I know! How about all the people who believe abortions are wrong should be put onto a roster, and have to care for them since they are the ones who want them to be given a chance.

Find me a way to deal with these unwanted children that isn't going to necessitate the massive increase of funding for social services and I might be prepared to accept that you have a point. Until that day however, my firm opinion is that abortions are a necessary part of society that prevent the neglect that would otherwise occur.

Scientists and doctors, for the most part, do not rever to a fetus as a person. It has no gender and one can tell very little about it from the outset.

I also force you adhere to my moral standards when you decide that you'd like to put an end to my life for some inconvenient reason why is that different?

I'm not really sure what you're argument is here. A fetus cannot tell us how it feels about the matter, and for the most part, children's lives are governed by what their parents believed, at least till they're old enough to assert themselves.
A fetus cannot enforce any views on anyone. for the most part, it has no awareness until it is much more developed. Other than abortion, I do not believe it's right to put an end to anyoen's life.

bove, we live in a world were moral standpoints have to be enforced.

I regard my moral standpoint just as important as you value yours. and no, I do not believe it's up to the government of any country to enforce morals. It's up to the government to protect the people they govern, and I believe that means everyone. It's up to a government to be fair on all people of different beliefs. The government is not forcing people to have abortions. they are an option for those of us who have no issue with them. those who have an issue with them, do not have to have one. but by disallowing them, the government protects the viewpoint of one large group by halming the values of another. The best solution is one that allows both groups to practice their own morals.

kay, how about someone under developed

I still think there is a line that can be drawn, no matter how underdeveloped someone is after they are born. this is my opinion and it won't change no matter how much you debate with me, just as I'm sure yours won't.

s far as I'm concerned if the mother committed to having sex that lead to her having the child, she is at that point responsible for the child.(this does not include abuse, rape, incest or any other form of trauma) If at some point during the pregnancy the mothers life is endangered medically, she then has the option to abort.

and what about all those one time mistakes, those women who's birth control fails, condoms break and so on and so forth?

why the hell shouldn't they have access to abortions too?

Now I agree that people shouldn't use abortion as a means of contriception, but I also understand, being a woman, how hard some women find it to find the right kind of birth control. I can also understand, why many women with steady partners choose to use condoms regularly rather than take some form of contriception that messes with their system.

 

[88chaz88]

Call it whatever you want but I couldn't give a damn about an unborn fetus/baby/whatever. I'd rather not ruin the life of woman and potential child by allowing an unwanted birth while contributing to the planet's overpopulation problem simply becuase the condom broke.

If you think that girls are using abortion as birth control then how about we compromise and make it so that anyone getting a high number of repeat abortions get's psychiatrical help.

Though if you want to scream "abortion is murder" in my face then let me put it straight for you: I don't care.

 

[tfg345i4u5lw]

I don't think people truely understand what making abortions illegal would do to a country as a whole. If they did understand, they wouldn't like it.

and I don't like the fact at all, but it's something I accept, and I understand that allowing abortions early on in pregnancy is the only way to prevent it.

‎"When we consider that women are treated as property, it is degrading to women that we should treat our children as property to be disposed of as we see fit."
- Elizabeth Cady Stanton
Heck yes! Feminists For Life

Women are oppressed, abortion is our societies way of saying "there is nothing we can do about it, we should let women abort". The real problem is that in both a cultural and economic sense there is not enough love shown towards women. By allowing abortion to be a casual thing we are accepting the unfair treatment of women and therefor improvement will not be made. There will only be more abortions.

What about victims of rape? We should work harder to prevent it in the first place.
What about teen pregnancy? We should educate more.
What about women who don't have the resources to care for the baby? There should be more resources available and the man should be held more accountable by the law and his peers.

By making abortion casual we are halting the progress of women.

 

[DevilDoll]

I think we've had at least two or three of these threads since I have been on the forums and it always comes down to the same argument. People differ on whether life begins at birth or conception. From what I can tell (and I only skimmed this thread because It's the same thing I've seen over and over again) it boils down to people wanting to impose their morals and beliefs on others. They feel that what they believe is right. There is no right or wrong in this argument! There is only a difference of viewpoint. Neither party has the right to force their opinion on the other. This is where we run into the problem. If abortion was illegal that would be one party forcing their beliefs on the other. But, if it was legal would that be the pro-choice party forcing the pro-lifers to have abortions? Nope. It all boils down to something very very simple. If you don't like it then don't do it. If your beliefs, faith, morals, or whatever you want to call it tell you that this is wrong for you then don't take part. That's the key, though. Wrong for you. Just because it is against your personal beliefs does not give you the right to dictate what others believe. If it isn't directly harming you then it's most likely none of your concern.

 

[tfg345i4u5lw]

It is not a baby. It is a fetus.

What if I kill a 1 year old? A one year old is not as cognitive and aware as an adult, so by your reasoning it isn't as bad.

Should a person who kills a 1 year old receive a smaller punishment than a person who kills an adult?

 

[DevilDoll]

What if I kill a 1 year old? A one year old is not as cognitive and aware as an adult, so by your reasoning it isn't as bad.

Should a person who kills a 1 year old receive a smaller punishment than a person who kills an adult?

This is absurd. A one year old actually HAS cognitive function. A zygote does not.

 

[88chaz88]

‎
What about victims of rape? We should work harder to prevent it in the first place.

So when it happens we just shrug and say "sorry dear, we should have tried harder."

‎What about teen pregnancy? We should educate more.

So again we just shrug and say "sorry love, we should have educated you better."

‎What about women who don't have the resources to care for the baby? There should be more resources available and the man should be held more accountable by the law and his peers.

So then we just shrug and say "sorry dear, we should have had a better economy."

Oh and there is such a thing as child support you know. It's not like men are relieved of all responsibility. In fact I'd argue they have more seeing as they don't get a choice whether to abort or not.

‎By making abortion casual we are halting the progress of women.

Sorry but all you're saying is that women should be punished for society's failings. For somone who's quoting a feminist that's pretty goddam remarkable.

I think we've had at least two or three of these threads since I have been on the forums and it always comes down to the same argument. People differ on whether life begins at birth or conception.

That's why I've started to take the position that I don't care whether or not where life begins, because quite frankly, I don't. My dinner last night was fairly alive at some point.

 

[Galileo]

I think we've just been through this one...

I think that you're right that these issues need to be addressed. I do not think however taking abortions out of the equation would help.

I think the readily available birth control and relaxing of abortion laws actually contributed to the progress of women. how are women supposed to progress if they're stuck at home with a baby they don't want.

 

[tfg345i4u5lw]

Sorry but all you're saying is that women should be punished for society's failings. For somone who's quoting a feminist that's pretty goddam remarkable.

First off, thats not what i'm saying.

Second, I'm quoting a feminist because there are lots of feminists who see things like I do. Check out this website and it might help you grasp what i'm saying.

http://feministsforlife.org/news/refuse-to-choose.htm

Also there is a facebook group. http://www.facebook.com/FeministsForLife

 

[DevilDoll]

I'd also like to point out that making abortions illegal will not eliminate them. If a woman has decided she doesn't want to see a pregnancy to term, she won't. There are other ways to terminate a pregnancy. These ways are not safe for the mother and could result in her death if done wrong. By making abortion illegal, all you are doing is removing the most safe and hygienic option. If that is gone women will result to other methods. Bicycle spokes, coat hangers, throwing themselves down the stairs, you name it they'll do it. If they are desperate enough, that is. And I have seen some pretty desperate pregnant teens.

 

[88chaz88]

First off, thats not what i'm saying.

Then I suggest you choose different arguments, because that's exactly what those ones imply.

Second, I'm quoting a feminist because there are lots of feminists who see things like I do. Check out this website and it might help you grasp what i'm saying.

http://feministsforlife.org/news/refuse-to-choose.htm

Also there is a facebook group. http://www.facebook.com/FeministsForLife

Irrelevant. My main point is that I disagree with your arguments because it punishes women for the failings of society, the point where you quoted a feminist is added irony.

I wouldn't be surprised if some feminists actually believe what you implied anyway, I find a number of them can be retarded hypocritical bats.

 

[Edith]

‎"When we consider that women are treated as property, it is degrading to women that we should treat our children as property to be disposed of as we see fit."
- Elizabeth Cady Stanton
Heck yes! Feminists For Life

Women are oppressed, abortion is our societies way of saying "there is nothing we can do about it, we should let women abort". The real problem is that in both a cultural and economic sense there is not enough love shown towards women. By allowing abortion to be a casual thing we are accepting the unfair treatment of women and therefor improvement will not be made. There will only be more abortions.

What about victims of rape? We should work harder to prevent it in the first place.
What about teen pregnancy? We should educate more.
What about women who don't have the resources to care for the baby? There should be more resources available and the man should be held more accountable by the law and his peers.

By making abortion casual we are halting the progress of women.

Wow, seriously? So we should take away women's rights to choose what happens to their body and that will help women progress?

You can't just say "there should be more resources available." You can't just MAKE resources just because you want them to be available.

And since when has abortion been a casual thing? As far as I know (I only have New Zealand to reference,really) you cannot just walk into an abortion clinic off the street, get an abortion then and there, and happily stroll off afterwards. No, there is a process. There are rules to be followed and there are guidelines. Definitely not a casual thing to get an abortion.

Abortions won't cease if they are illegal, but they will get a hell of a lot more dangerous for those who want and need to have one. I think that would be halting the progress of women.

 

[Galileo]

And since when has abortion been a casual thing? As far as I know (I only have New Zealand to reference,really) you cannot just walk into an abortion clinic off the street, get an abortion then and there, and happily stroll off afterwards. No, there is a process. There are rules to be followed and there are guidelines. Definitely not a casual thing to get an abortion.

it's the same here too, women certainly aren't told not to do it, but they are given a chance to talk through their options with a councillor and make doubly sure that this is what they want.

it's all about minimising the effect it will have on them and making sure that it's a decision they have thought about a lot.

 

[Barnabas]

Present to me a viable plan to deal with all the unwanted children that would have been aborted and I will agree that it isn't but the plan must not involve forcing the unwilling parent to care for the child or bringing back homes for unwanted children.

education and responsible parenting


I know! How about all the people who believe abortions are wrong should be put onto a roster, and have to care for them since they are the ones who want them to be given a chance.

adoption

Find me a way to deal with these unwanted children that isn't going to necessitate the massive increase of funding for social services and I might be prepared to accept that you have a point. Until that day however, my firm opinion is that abortions are a necessary part of society that prevent the neglect that would otherwise occur.

adoption


Scientists and doctors, for the most part, do not rever to a fetus as a person. It has no gender and one can tell very little about it from the outset.

what if I said no they don't

I'm not really sure what you're argument is here. A fetus cannot tell us how it feels about the matter, and for the most part, children's lives are governed by what their parents believed, at least till they're old enough to assert themselves.
A fetus cannot enforce any views on anyone. for the most part, it has no awareness until it is much more developed. Other than abortion, I do not believe it's right to put an end to anyoen's life.

A mother can't suddenly decide to get rid of her child when he/she becomes inconvenient or problematic how is that any different from abortion that is linked to no external factors.


I regard my moral standpoint just as important as you value yours. and no, I do not believe it's up to the government of any country to enforce morals. It's up to the government to protect the people they govern, and I believe that means everyone. It's up to a government to be fair on all people of different beliefs. The government is not forcing people to have abortions. they are an option for those of us who have no issue with them. those who have an issue with them, do not have to have one. but by disallowing them, the government protects the viewpoint of one large group by halming the values of another. The best solution is one that allows both groups to practice their own morals.

except for the part where we talk about the lives of others, in which case it is the government's Job to protect those whom can't protect themselves.

I still think there is a line that can be drawn, no matter how underdeveloped someone is after they are born. this is my opinion and it won't change no matter how much you debate with me, just as I'm sure yours won't.

you do understand that fetus is just another developmental stage of life, much like being an infant, toddler or teenager

and what about all those one time mistakes, those women who's birth control fails, condoms break and so on and so forth?

fair enough, if for any reason the pregnancy is not inherently the fault of the couple having sex then the mother has the right to abort.

Now I agree that people shouldn't use abortion as a means of contriception, but I also understand, being a woman, how hard some women find it to find the right kind of birth control. I can also understand, why many women with steady partners choose to use condoms regularly rather than take some form of contriception that messes with their system.


let me be abrupt, I don't think we should ban contraceptives or birth control of any nature outside abortion, mainly because it is impractical regardless of the moral implications

So if a women shows that she is not at fault for the pregnancy, she can freely have an abortion.

 

[Stu]

call me cold blooded but If I had another being inside of me that needed me for his survival and promised to change every aspect of my physical as well as psychic being I would not tolerate any authority which portended to dictate to me what my course of action would be

So if a women shows that she is not at fault for the pregnancy, she can freely have an abortion.

 

[Peppermint]

Everyone is throwing out opinions, but no one is citing biologically relevant definitions.

What is a human?
What is a zygote?
What is a fetus?
What is a baby?
Is it a part if mothers body?
When does it stop being a part of mother's body?

Compare and contrast.

As for me, I don't care about abortions. I don't care about the procedures. Listing procedures is merely an emotional appeal aimed to produce sympathy. It might as well be murder, but I don't even think murder is always wrong. I don't put human life on a pedestal either.

You may think it's morally wrong, but I am and always will be for pro choice. As far as I'm concerned it's better to flush the fetus than force the mother to raise a child and give it an awful life. Foster homes ain't a slice of heaven either. Children are a huge responsibility, and to be honest most parents hardly live up to the task.

 

[This]

I think the issue comes from the fact that some people believe a fetus is part of a woman's body and some people believe it's, it's own entity.

Also this living a terrible life argument is absurd, regardless of how my life was I'd rather be alive than dead.

 

[tfg345i4u5lw]

Wow, seriously? So we should take away women's rights to choose what happens to their body and that will help women progress?

You can't just say "there should be more resources available." You can't just MAKE resources just because you want them to be available.

And since when has abortion been a casual thing? As far as I know (I only have New Zealand to reference,really) you cannot just walk into an abortion clinic off the street, get an abortion then and there, and happily stroll off afterwards. No, there is a process. There are rules to be followed and there are guidelines. Definitely not a casual thing to get an abortion.

Abortions won't cease if they are illegal, but they will get a hell of a lot more dangerous for those who want and need to have one. I think that would be halting the progress of women.

I think people should have to qualify for an abortion. I don't think it should be granted to nearly anyone who wants it (like today). In cases like incest and rape, the person should be allowed to have one. My point is that it shouldn't be casual. Because the need for abortion IS a symptom of a bigger problem. Poor women don't need abortions, they need help.

And you are wrong, we can make resources available. That's what taxes are for.

Edit: Here in California people can get abortions pretty easily. My best friend had one. Also a friend from highschool had 5, i'm not friends with her anymore she drinks too much. She gets them like haircuts haha. Where you are it might be different.

 

[Solongo]

I don't think people truely understand what making abortions illegal would do to a country as a whole. If they did understand, they wouldn't like it.

I agree with this. Back ally, shady abortions by non licensed doctors existed before abortion was legalized and not to mention the death by infection and non sterilized equipment. Many Catholic countries still have this issue. On top of the difficult decision faced by many young woman; imagine walking into a nightmarish back alley clinic.

Personally I am very sexist when it comes to an issue of abortion. I can't seem to discuss the issue with someone who has no uterus.