Legalizing murder of abortionists

[Galileo]

education and responsible parenting

you can go on about better education all you want, but most schools actually do teach kids about safe sex, at least they do here, and teenagers are still getting pregnant.

adoption

Is noone actually listening to what I've been saying about that? parents wanting to adopt are getting less and less, and the laws getting tougher. With IVF, a lot of people who would have otherwise wanted to adopt are having their own children. if I had a choice, I'd have my own child rather than someone's unwanted one any day, and a lot of people think like me. I just do not want there to come a time when I have to tell my child that they were an unwanted child.
so what else are you going to do with them?

what if I said no they don't

if they could prove it beyond any doubt and god didn't come into the equation, I might think differently. but I don't, and nothing you say is going to change my mind.

A mother can't suddenly decide to get rid of her child when he/she becomes inconvenient or problematic how is that any different from abortion that is linked to no external factors.

a mother can give up her child at any time if she can't take care of it. at least in this country they can. adoption doesn't just go for little babies, she can also put them up for foster care. there are a number of options open to her. she can also just leave, as some mothers do.

except for the part where we talk about the lives of others, in which case it is the government's Job to protect those whom can't protect themselves.

it's not the government's job to say what's alive and what isn't. leave that to doctors and scientests, since it's their job. I don't think a fetus is alive in the sense that you or I are, therefore I do not think they should be treated the same. and it's not the government's job to tell me different.

you do understand that fetus is just another developmental stage of life, much like being an infant, toddler or teenager

no, because the fetus cannot survive without the mother. a baby can survive without its mother, and so can anyone else, but a fetus cannot.

fair enough, if for any reason the pregnancy is not inherently the fault of the couple having sex then the mother has the right to abort.

call me cold blooded but If I had another being inside of me that needed me for his survival and promised to change every aspect of my physical as well as psychic being I would not tolerate any authority which portended to dictate to me what my course of action would be

exactly. in my opinion I come first before some thing growing inside me. my needs must be met first. if I can't take care of a child, and I know it, I'm not going to have it. I'm also not going to have it and put it up for adoption to have it turn up on my doorstep 18 years later asking me why I gave it up.

Poor women don't need abortions, they need help.

the fact of the matter is that that's not going to happen. because there are so many poor women who get pregnant. It's just not viable for a government to have to pay out more and more money to support mothers who would much prefer having an abortion. I think that no matter what a government says, they know this too, so abortion will always be legal.

When I finally get a good job, I don't want my tax dollars to go to supporting women who are forced into being mothers, not when I firmly believe in allowing them to have a choice when it comes down to it.

 

[This]

I just do not want there to come a time when I have to tell my child that they were an unwanted child.

As someone that was adopted and has always known that he was I take offense to the notion of being an "unwanted child" I've never felt unwanted in any sense of the word in regards to parental issues.

 

[bamf]

So I'm a bit confused where pro life people get off the life train and can say that incest fetuses and rape fetuses can be killed...

 

[This]

So I'm a bit confused where pro life people get off the life train and can say that incest fetuses and rape fetuses can be killed...

I always found that strange as well, and I am pro-life in the moral sense but pro-choice in the political sense. (I hate those terms by the way)

 

[Neuropedia]

They have already be robbed of their autonomy over their bodies, I don't think we have the right to do so anymore to victims. Not being able to make the choice of what to do with their bodies only perpetuates the psychological damage of rape, to the point where victims may never heal.

Every victim of incest I have ever known or worked with has considered, attempted or completed suicide. This is the same for most rape victims.
"I don't know what I would have done if I had gotten pregnant, I would have probably killed myself." seems to be the common sentiment among these women,

I'm not saying abortion is right in these cases, I'm saying no one but the woman has the authority to make that judgement.

 

[Barnabas]

So I'm a bit confused where pro life people get off the life train and can say that incest fetuses and rape fetuses can be killed...

In my points on this, these are the most heated reasons for an abortion and the hardest to say no too. While I still think the child should be allowed to live, there is a strong moral conviction that the victim is now being forced to live and relive their nightmarish experience(Which unfortunately is very possible for the victim).

Seeing as rape and incest abortions are incredibly few compared to the majority, I see it as a fair compromise for the sake of the victim that they be allowed to make the decision.

edit: Neuropedia said it better

They have already be robbed of their autonomy over their bodies, I don't think we have the right to do so anymore to victims. Not being able to make the choice of what to do with their bodies only perpetuates the psychological damage of rape, to the point where victims may never heal.

Every victim of incest I have ever known or worked with has considered, attempted or completed suicide. This is the same for most rape victims.
"I don't know what I would have done if I had gotten pregnant, I would have probably killed myself." seems to be the common sentiment among these women,

I'm not saying abortion is right in these cases, I'm saying no one but the woman has the authority to make that judgement.

 

[Edith]

Also this living a terrible life argument is absurd, regardless of how my life was I'd rather be alive than dead.

Not everyone shares your same sentiment judging by the vast number of suicides that take place every single day.

 

[bickelz]

I always found that strange as well, and I am pro-life in the moral sense but pro-choice in the political sense. (I hate those terms by the way)

Well, there we have it. This is more of a political debate rather than a moral one. Understand that pro choice does not mean pro abortion, it just means you don't believe you should have a say in another woman's pregnancy.

I hate the terms too.

 

[poshlost]

I think the issue comes from the fact that some people believe a fetus is part of a woman's body and some people believe it's, it's own entity.

Also this living a terrible life argument is absurd, regardless of how my life was I'd rather be alive than dead.

I understand your argument and used to agree with it, but it's also not the fetus' choice to live, we didn't decide to be brought to life. it is much more moral to prevent humans from coming to existence in the first place.

 

[Neuropedia]

If it becomes a political debate,
then by definition, it becomes about power:
Specifically, the power the government has over a woman's body, and her conscience.

 

[Neuropedia]

I understand your argument and used to agree with it, but it's also not the fetus' choice to live, we didn't decide to be brought to life. it is much more moral to prevent humans from coming to existence in the first place.

Plus, what if the mother did not abort, but continued to live her life as usual.

but also to continuing drinking, smoking, and the same diet (mercury-laden fish, and not enough nutrients to support a pregnancy), no-prenatal vitamins (see neural tube defects!), stress, high impact sports, sex (if anything penetrates beyond the cervix (which can happen all the time) it can severely damage a fetus)


It is certainly possible for a woman to intentionally, or not, induce a miscarriage, still birth, or a death in early infancy, without having an abortion.

 

[Neuropedia]

“Abortion: Is it Possible to be both “Pro-life” and “Pro-Choice”?”

or
“The Question of Abortion: A Search for Answers”

by Carl Sagan and Ann Druyan


http://www.2think.org/abortion.shtml

 

[Barnabas]

Not everyone shares your same sentiment judging by the vast number of suicides that take place every single day.

Most suicide victims suffer from trauma that prevents them from making rational/logical/appropriate decisions.

 

[poshlost]

Most suicide victims suffer from trauma that prevents them from making rational/logical/appropriate decisions.

are they really?

 

[Edith]

Most suicide victims suffer from trauma that prevents them from making rational/logical/appropriate decisions.

I would argue that being forced to keep a baby that you are incapable of caring for and do not want is also severely traumatic.

 

[Barnabas]

are they really?

Untreated Depression is the number one cause of suicide.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Depression_(mood)
http://www.suicide.org/suicide-causes.html

 

[poshlost]

well yeah, it's obvious that depressed people rather than jolly happy people tend to commit suicide. that doesn't mean their decision is irrational. despite it all, committing suicide usually takes courage, lucidity and determination which shouldn't be viciously undermined.

 

[slant]

I think we've had at least two or three of these threads since I have been on the forums and it always comes down to the same argument. People differ on whether life begins at birth or conception. From what I can tell (and I only skimmed this thread because It's the same thing I've seen over and over again) it boils down to people wanting to impose their morals and beliefs on others. They feel that what they believe is right. There is no right or wrong in this argument! There is only a difference of viewpoint. Neither party has the right to force their opinion on the other. This is where we run into the problem. If abortion was illegal that would be one party forcing their beliefs on the other. But, if it was legal would that be the pro-choice party forcing the pro-lifers to have abortions? Nope. It all boils down to something very very simple. If you don't like it then don't do it. If your beliefs, faith, morals, or whatever you want to call it tell you that this is wrong for you then don't take part. That's the key, though. Wrong for you. Just because it is against your personal beliefs does not give you the right to dictate what others believe. If it isn't directly harming you then it's most likely none of your concern.

Yeah dude, see, I told you everyone got all off topic.

 

[Neuropedia]

people with depression, trauma, etc. may make a rational decision to end their lives because they don't want to suffer and they have exhausted all potential solutions. It doesn't seem like there are very many good "cures" for depression (and other mental health issues, even more so) out there, at least as it stands

It seems more irrational to be content with psychological suffering for the rest of one's life

 

[Barnabas]

Does anybody think that this bill could bean attempt to throw abortion back into the public spotlight?