Let's talk about Satan

[Lark]

I'm interested in what other forum members think/believe/things/monkeyemotes about Satan/Devil/adversary/or what ever name you'd like to go with.

Though for this discussion I'd like to keep it relegated to the Judeo-christian penultimate evil. So while I know there are plenty of other faiths and individual spiritualities I'd like for them to leave their variants out of the discussion though they should feel free to make comment on their opinions of Christianity's big bad though.

And let's start it off with a question, does Satan exist?

Hmm, that is a good question, certainly good recent biblical exegisis (spelling) would suggest that Satan as a singular being does not exist so much as "the Satan" being a role which was played by different people, or cosmic characters, at different times. There's a good chance that Jesus and his immediate followers were influenced by non-canonical Jewish books such as the book of Enoch, which deals with renegade angels, giants, the nephilem, demons etc.

There are versions of the scriptures which suggest that a resurrected Jesus told his followers either not to worry about Satan any longer or that Satan had been dealt with but that other horrors could be expected before the end of time.

Personally one of the greatest stories to feature Satan, based upon, mainly, Kabbalistic Jewish ideas but also Christian ones is Philip K Dick's The Divine Invasion, it explains quite brilliantly how the trauma of the incarnation of Jesus and the crucifixion could have effected a deity which was sharing in the experience, including the mind and thinking processes, of its creation, it explains psychological splitting, loss of memory, recover of memory etc. as possibly afflicting the deity and therefore the whole of reality. It also has one of the best depictions of Satan I've ever read as a kind of malignant donkey or goat creature. The ultimate prevailing of good over evil is done exceptionally well too.

I tend to think that some sorts of fiction serve God's purposes without being known about.

 

[the]

What do you think about abraxas?

 

[j654dgj7]

I'm interested in what other forum members think/believe/things/monkeyemotes about Satan/Devil/adversary/or what ever name you'd like to go with.

Though for this discussion I'd like to keep it relegated to the Judeo-christian penultimate evil. So while I know there are plenty of other faiths and individual spiritualities I'd like for them to leave their variants out of the discussion though they should feel free to make comment on their opinions of Christianity's big bad though.

And let's start it off with a question, does Satan exist?

It's a shame that you're leaving out Islam, as they believe in a more literal Satan and evil spirits called Jinn's. The Judeo-Christian Satan was a creation of the Middle Ages, if I am not mistaken.

I don't believe in any of it personally, but I appreciate the analogies and moral guidelines of it all.

 

[Spinnaker4469]

I think the concept of "Satan" is a somewhat primitive construction in people's minds to externalize evil rather than accept that we all have the capacity for evil within us. Despite our lofty intelligence and magnificent accomplishments made by manipulating tools, we are still animals. And as animals, we still have the powerful animalistic drives to reproduce and survive which, in their extreme, look like evil in a civilized society. I could live more comfortably believing that there is some dangerous character out there that embodies evil and could kill me--unless I have the right belief system in place that will prevent it. It's much scarier to think that under the right circumstances, my next door neighbor could whack me in the head and eat me.

 

[Eventhorizon]

I was thinking about changing my screen name to Gotan....

 

[Barnabas]

It's a shame that you're leaving out Islam, as they believe in a more literal Satan and evil spirits called Jinn's. The Judeo-Christian Satan was a creation of the Middle Ages, if I am not mistaken.

I don't believe in any of it personally, but I appreciate the analogies and moral guidelines of it all.

If someone would like to bring up the Islamic version of Satan then I'd be pleased to hear about, I simply lack the knowledge. However considering the term Satan come from the Hebrew text of the Old Testament I'm going to have to disagree with the idea that Satan was invented around the middle ages.

 

[Matt3737]

During the annual pilgrimage to Mecca, pilgrims will take place in a ritual of stoning the devil.

As an Abrahamic faith, Satan is viewed in a similar manner in Islam. Djinn were part of pre-Islamic beliefs and mythology and were assimilated into the Islamic ideology.

[video=youtube_share;jM81wroj_MQ]http://youtu.be/jM81wroj_MQ[/video]

This is a condensed video. There is a full, hour long version found here: Nat Geo 'Inside Mecca'

The stoning of the devil begins around the 42:45 mark in the full version.

 

[LucyJr]

I think the concept of "Satan" is a somewhat primitive construction in people's minds to externalize evil rather than accept that we all have the capacity for evil within us. Despite our lofty intelligence and magnificent accomplishments made by manipulating tools, we are still animals. And as animals, we still have the powerful animalistic drives to reproduce and survive which, in their extreme, look like evil in a civilized society. I could live more comfortably believing that there is some dangerous character out there that embodies evil and could kill me--unless I have the right belief system in place that will prevent it. It's much scarier to think that under the right circumstances, my next door neighbor could whack me in the head and eat me.

I think you have missuderstood the nature of evil and the nature of Satan.
1.Satan is not Evil.
2.Evil is not Satan.
but...
Satan is a evil being, but it doesn't mean Satan is 'the Evil'!

 

[LucyJr]

It's a shame that you're leaving out Islam, as they believe in a more literal Satan and evil spirits called Jinn's. The Judeo-Christian Satan was a creation of the Middle Ages, if I am not mistaken.

I don't believe in any of it personally, but I appreciate the analogies and moral guidelines of it all.

Do you have any hystorical evidence that "The Judeo-Christian Satan was a creation of the Middle Ages"? Or some arguments?

 

[LucyJr]

that was supposed to be a funny response... but also slightly serious


Edit: also that question was sarcastic, not ironic.

Edit 2: that edit came of far more childishly then I intended it too.

But still I'm curious to hear your view on this. What do you think is Satan?

 

[Barnabas]

But still I'm curious to hear your view on this. What do you think is Satan?

still evolving, haven't done enough research, part of why I created this thread.

 

[Rcs6r]

What about the character of Prometheus, a Titan and trickster, who defies the gods and gives fire and knowledge to Man?

In some ways this figure parallels Samyaza and the Grigori (the Watchers) who also came to Earth and gave humans knowledge (and also birthed the Nephilim, causing war, etc.).

 

[Matt3737]

Do you have any hystorical evidence that "The Judeo-Christian Satan was a creation of the Middle Ages"? Or some arguments?

Well a lot of, but certainly not all of, our beliefs and views toward the character of Satan and hell have been influenced by the literary classics of Dante and Milton which are considered some of the greatest works in the history of literature.

 

[Eventhorizon]

God and Satan are exact the same thing in my mind. If real, same entity. Aka as Gotan.

 

[Cornerstone]

I was always fascinated by the devil as I was raised Catholic.
Honestly, I think I just liked all the heavy metal imagery more than I really pondered on the issue.
Now, at a push, I would say the Bible is referring to something real.

My very hesistantly put opinion is that the Old Testament refers to true events but we have really missed the point.
So, I would be more likely to believe in things like giants (relative to us) having lived on earth and demons in the astral planes.
Demons are distinct from malicious souls, they are more powerful and have knowledge of the big picture...like angels.
Could the devil be a force for separation consciousness akin to an archangel? Possibly...I don't know...it's scary to think about.
I don't think there is a force of evil equal to God, however. It seems clear in all religious doctrine that love trumps evil.

 

[muir]

Well a lot of, but certainly not all of, our beliefs and views toward the character of Satan and hell have been influenced by the literary classics of Dante and Milton which are considered some of the greatest works in the history of literature.

In Miltons paradise lost satan is portrayed sympathetically perhaps betraying an unconventional view of the interplay of light and dark by Milton

 

[muir]

Pan had horns and has associations with the star sign of capricorn which in turn has associations with saturn (satan)

 

[muir]

During the annual pilgrimage to Mecca, pilgrims will take place in a ritual of stoning the devil.

As an Abrahamic faith, Satan is viewed in a similar manner in Islam. Djinn were part of pre-Islamic beliefs and mythology and were assimilated into the Islamic ideology.

[video=youtube_share;jM81wroj_MQ]http://youtu.be/jM81wroj_MQ[/video]

This is a condensed video. There is a full, hour long version found here: Nat Geo 'Inside Mecca'

The stoning of the devil begins around the 42:45 mark in the full version.

The seal of the knights templar who travelled to the holy land and took up residence there shows two knights on horseback, yet knights did not travel or fight like that

I have heard various ideas as to why they are depicted like this. One theory is that the second knight is in fact a djinn which the templar has synched with

 

[LucyJr]

Well a lot of, but certainly not all of, our beliefs and views toward the character of Satan and hell have been influenced by the literary classics of Dante and Milton which are considered some of the greatest works in the history of literature.

Isn't the stance of christian theology pretty much definitive on this matter?

I don't understand. If Jesus Christ is the son of God, if Christianity and Bible is true, than yes, Satan does exist, and we can make some general lines that describe his character, what kind of being is he. I don't understand why people need to philosophise so much on things that should be clear.

Its like the atheist who ask "Well how could God make a sinful man's heart to follow Him?", and in this they try to ask a supposedly difficult question. Wouldn't they should ask questions on things that are really important, instead of insisting on trivial things, that would make sense if they see the general picture...

 

[Skarekrow]

Isn't the stance of christian theology pretty much definitive on this matter?

I don't understand. If Jesus Christ is the son of God, if Christianity and Bible is true, than yes, Satan does exist, and we can make some general lines that describe his character, what kind of being is he. I don't understand why people need to philosophise so much on things that should be clear.

Its like the atheist who ask "Well how could God make a sinful man's heart to follow Him?", and in this they try to ask a supposedly difficult question. Wouldn't they should ask questions on things that are really important, instead of insisting on trivial things, that would make sense if they see the general picture...

Because there is so much in the Bible that could be parable…most of what Jesus taught was taught in parable…one could easily argue that the whole creationism/Garden of Eden story was written as a parable to explain the origins of the universe and mankind.
Regarding Jesus…
He didn’t mean for everything he said to be understood…he plainly states that…he also states that his message will be corrupted by man in the days to come.

“All these things spoke Jesus unto the multitude in PARABLES; and without a parable spoke He not unto them.” Matt 13:34

“But without a PARABLE spoke He not unto them…” Mark 4:34

“This PARABLE spoke Jesus unto them; but they understood not what things they were which He spoke unto them.” John 10:6

“And the disciples came, and said unto Him, Why do you speak unto them in parables? He answered and said unto them, Because it is given untoYOU to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but unto them it is NOT given.” Matt 13:10-11

“The people draw near unto Me with their mouth, and honor Me with their lips: but their Heart is FAR from Me. But in vain (futility) they do worship Me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men (hell fire, immortality of the soul, Sunday sacredness, Free Will — and many more false doctrines of man).” Matt 15:8-9



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