Let's talk about Satan

[Hazard]

I don't have the verses, only a memory of what I've learned from my churches and Christian schools. What exactly do you need sources to? I'll try to find them if it's quick but I'm not going to delve too deep.

 

[the]

I don't have the verses, only a memory of what I've learned from my churches and Christian schools. What exactly do you need sources to? I'll try to find them if it's quick but I'm not going to delve too deep.

Yeah that's what I remember from protestant church. I think a lot of it is an interpretation of Isaiah.

 

[sprinkles]

I don't have the verses, only a memory of what I've learned from my churches and Christian schools. What exactly do you need sources to? I'll try to find them if it's quick but I'm not going to delve too deep.

For a religion I think you should delve deep, eat up everything, and especially have the verses. I mean this not a passing interest, it's not a hobby, it is your religion! Do you not believe it is wise to be as deep as you can?

Just my opinion.

 

[Mary Shelley]

For a religion I think you should delve deep, eat up everything, and especially have the verses. I mean this not a passing interest, it's not a hobby, it is your religion! Do you not believe it is wise to be as deep as you can?

Just my opinion.

What do you do when the deep dive threatens your faith?

 

[sprinkles]

What do you do when the deep dive threatens your faith?

Realize that it probably wasn't for you to begin with?

 

[Rcs6r]

This question has always burned in my mind regarding the subject:

Are Lucifer and Samael the same being? Some say Samael is a lieutenant to Lucifer; others say he is an angel of heaven whom God charged with testing mankind and act as Angel of Death; then I hear he is in fact another name for Lucifer/Satan.

 

[Mary Shelley]

It's actually Dave Grohl.
[video=youtube_share;53ZGvJv4eGA]http://youtu.be/53ZGvJv4eGA[/video]

 

[Nixie]

Satan only exists if you believe in Christianity. While the tenets of Christianity is a strong and prevalent mythology, I don't believe it or the bible as sources of divinity. So no, I do not believe Satan exists.

 

[the]

Satan only exists if you believe in Christianity.

your belief does not make it exists or not exist except for in your own mind

 

[Nixie]

your belief does not make it exists or not exist except for in your own mind

That is all kinds of wtf. *throws a clue toward the*

The same could be said of you or anybody else...that is a given to anything that is taken as part of "faith" or without irrefutable proof...and our understanding of everything is already flawed because we have no way of explicitly relaying thought without distortion...so no real irrefutable proof about most things.

The OP wished to contain the talk to the context of Judeo Christian mythology. The question being, does Satan exist. Satan is a construct of a mythology called Christianity. I do not believe in Christianity or the bible as sources of divinity or "truth", so the answer to the OP's question is "no, Satan does not exist".

I wouldn't capitalize Satan except that the rules of English cause it to be red-lined like I've committed a error...

 

[the]

That is all kinds of wtf. *throws a clue toward the*

The same could be said of you or anybody else...that is a given to anything that is taken as part of "faith" or without irrefutable proof...and our understanding of everything is already flawed because we have no way of explicitly relaying thought without distortion...so no real irrefutable proof about most things.

The OP wished to contain the talk to the context of Judeo Christian mythology. The question being, does Satan exist. Satan is a construct of a mythology called Christianity. I do not believe in Christianity or the bible as sources of divinity or "truth", so the answer to the OP's question is "no, Satan does not exist".

I wouldn't capitalize Satan except that the rules of English cause it to be red-lined like I've committed a error...

You're so conducive to conversation.

 

[Skarekrow]

In the Judeo-Christian belief system, God is said to be Omnipotent, Omniscient, etc, etc.
If God created all, has knowledge of all (past, present, and future), and controls all....then one could say that God created and controls Satan and evil for that matter.
The question that brings up is why do such a thing? The tree in the garden of Eden was the tree of knowledge of good and evil...why create the tree knowing that Adam and Eve would partake of it? If one believes that God has a grand plan, then one could also assume that God intend for Adam and Eve to sin...and that the snake (if one believes that the snake was Satan) is merely an extension of God and has been ever since.

 

[Flavus Aquila]

In the Judeo-Christian belief system, God is said to be Omnipotent, Omniscient, etc, etc.
If God created all, has knowledge of all (past, present, and future), and controls all....then one could say that God created and controls Satan and evil for that matter.
The question that brings up is why do such a thing? The tree in the garden of Eden was the tree of knowledge of good and evil...why create the tree knowing that Adam and Eve would partake of it? If one believes that God has a grand plan, then one could also assume that God intend for Adam and Eve to sin...and that the snake (if one believes that the snake was Satan) is merely an extension of God and has been ever since.

It seems that if you are going to add at least one sentient species, with free will, to a big picture you have to allow it to make free choices.

When it comes to parenting models, it is hard to imagine anyone advocating a model which absolutely prevents children from having to make decisions from time to time.

Would you wish to live without the possibility of any significant choice?

Most Christians lump, the serpent in the garden of eve, there is Satan in the book of Job, the morning star in Isaiah( which was translated as Lucifer in latin), the figure in ezekiel 28 and all other references in the NT as speaking of a single individual. The counter argument asserts that there isn't a single opposite to God but instead many and that the verses I referenced speak of separate distinct individuals or speak in a very general sense.

the point of the argument is to move away from the dualistic view of a omnipotent good god and seemingly omnipotent bad god with the belief that having a single omnipotent figure the works with and around several other distinct individuals that have unique purposes reflect the monotheistic view of God better.

I'm not saying I buy it(it has plenty of other holes) and I definitely can't present it as well as it was presented to me. But it caught my attention and thought it merited further discussion.

Physical beings are distinct and separate because of their bodies.
Incorporeal beings are distinguished according to the extent of their knowledge.

Angels do not have eyes, ears, or any senses. Their knowledge is part and parcel with their very being.
Presuming that there is a hierarchy of angels. eg. Seraphim are greater than other angels, it seems fair to assume that some angels' knowledge will include the entire knowledge of many lesser angels.

Presuming that there is also a hierarchy among fallen angels, it seems reasonable that there will be some devils whose area of malice comprehensively covers all the possible scope of lesser devils - and is thus easily able to manipulate, employ, and further degrade the malice of many devils. ie. There are presumably chief devils. It seems to be a part of the Christian tradition that one of the greatest, if not the greatest angels fell. If this is the case, it seems entirely reasonable that its scope of malice would comprehensively cover the extent of malice of many, if not all other devils.

 

[sprinkles]

It seems that if you are going to add at least one sentient species, with free will, to a big picture you have to allow it to make free choices.

When it comes to parenting models, it is hard to imagine anyone advocating a model which absolutely prevents children from having to make decisions from time to time.

Would you wish to live without the possibility of any significant choice?

Would you invent crack and put it in the world to allow your baby the choice of smoking it?

Most humans don't even understand choice outside of their constructed mores anyway. The choices you actually have are few and might not even be that significant either.

Most of the time we're finagling an environment that we did not choose, did not choose to be born in, with a toolset that we did not choose, and getting around problems that we'd rather not have. Life is mostly full of stimulus reactions and there's often very little room for actual choice.

 

[sprinkles]

Physical beings are distinct and separate because of their bodies.

Without environment, body is nothing. Having perceived distance from another through a cloud of matter does not make you separate.

Imagine a brick being tossed into a pile of pingpong balls. Even though all items contained therein are individuated, they impart reactions to each other. The balls scatter proportionally to the force of the brick.

Humans can steer their reactions to an extent, but they are not truly separate. A truly separate human is inherently a dead human - or a human that probably never existed to begin with.

 

[Flavus Aquila]

Would you invent crack and put it in the world to allow your baby the choice of smoking it?

Most humans don't even understand choice outside of their constructed mores anyway. The choices you actually have are few and might not even be that significant either.

Most of the time we're finagling an environment that we did not choose, did not choose to be born in, with a toolset that we did not choose, and getting around problems that we'd rather not have. Life is mostly full of stimulus reactions and there's often very little room for actual choice.

Crack?
It was a fruit - sometimes identified as an apple.
The fruit was not bad, or dangerous. The decision was.

Blaming God for either giving choices, or not giving more choices is passing the buck - when it comes to the choices one makes.

 

[sprinkles]

Crack?
It was a fruit - sometimes identified as an apple.
The fruit was not bad, or dangerous. The decision was.

That's even worse because that makes it entirely an arbitrary setup.

If it wasn't actually harmful then what was the point of telling them not to eat it? If it was not harmful then there would have been no consequence if God had merely said nothing and allowed them to actually have their choice instead of inventing something for no logical reason or purpose.

Mind, I'm not saying that there has to be a logical reason or purpose. Just that this explanation is in no way sufficient. Some say "It's not even wrong." Not even wrong is worse than wrong because it makes no sense at all.

Blaming God for either giving choices, or not giving more choices is passing the buck - when it comes to the choices one makes.

There's no blame here. Why would I want to do such a thing? There's pointing out nonsense, but no blame. I couldn't care less, because as far as I'm concerned this is all academic.

 

[Flavus Aquila]

That's even worse because that makes it entirely an arbitrary setup.

If it wasn't actually harmful then what was the point of telling them not to eat it? If it was not harmful then there would have been no consequence if God had merely said nothing and allowed them to actually have their choice instead of inventing something for no logical reason or purpose.

Mind, I'm not saying that there has to be a logical reason or purpose. Just that this explanation is in no way sufficient. Some say "It's not even wrong." Not even wrong is worse than wrong because it makes no sense at all.

When parents say 'no' to children, should it always be in respect of harmful objects only?
Is the arbitrary nature of saying no to some request for some cool, safe, educational toy not important? What becomes of children who are never refused?

 

[Hazard]

[MENTION=6917]sprinkles[/MENTION]

1. God is not omniscient. He knows many and most things, even understanding the heart and character of a person, but he cannot predict in full the consequences of free will because He regrets some decisions.
2. God purposely gave us free will so we wouldn't follow Him like robots. He wants us to WANT to love, serve and obey Him. What's the point in creating something that is made, without choice, to love you?
3. God punishes bad deeds and rewards good ones. God creates consequences for all our actions whether they be moral or immoral.

From this we know that God intentionally gave us the choice to serve him or not and that he created the tree in the Garden of Eden for a purpose, as He creates all things. He gave Adam and Eve the choice to serve and obey Him. Instead of creating the tree as a fake test of whether or not they would follow Him, he created it with real consequences- the knowledge of good and evil. He also cursed Adam and Eve and punished them for their choice of disobedience and lack of alignment with God. He creates "crack" because he gives us the choice to serve Him in this world and also, because of His ways, punishes us when we choose to do so.

 

[Skarekrow]

Well then, it seems that the real question here is a question of free will. If one ascribes to the bible and what it teaches then one cannot really believe that they have any free will at all. There are far more verses stating things like “Not one step can be made without God.” than verses alluding to free will.
We are often likened to sheep or children...and if we have any free will at all (in the Christian model) then it is the same amount that children or sheep have...not much. Sheep can roam the pasture as much as they want, but can never cross the fence, are herded in each evening....and not to say that God is not herding out of danger that exists within the pasture...but once again, we are being herded...controlled. The “children” model has more of a “free will” feel to it...but then you have to ask yourself - When a child steals a piece of candy, do you subsequently punish said child by sending them to eternal hell-fire and torture? No you do not...you hold them accountable, but the responsibility ultimately fall to your shoulders as a parent. You take them back to the store, explain what they did was wrong and why and you have them apologize to the clerk. If they do it again, then you may take away some of their favorite toys....if they do it after that then you don’t continue to ramp up the punishment, you start to wonder if your child has a mental disorder. What makes you think any “sin” that could be committed here on earth would mean anything more than the most minor nothing to God? You really think he cares that you jerked-off to porn last year? lololol
Hell, Jesus forgave the guys that crucified him on the cross....I think that is about the worst thing you can do on the sin-scale....so why are you worried about your petty sins?
So if you don’t believe that God knows all, then you certainly have to believe in the “Christian” tradition that he has power over all, and created all. If so, then that means that he created “Hell” (if you believe in such a place ((which I do not)) and continues to allow it to exist...if you also believe in the Dante’s Inferno model that was incorporated by the Catholic church in that sinner will face eternal hell and torture then God is no longer a “just” and “forgiving” God as he is taught to be...yes God also has his “wrath” but if Hell is eternal then no matter what the sin, eventually the punishment will no longer fit the crime and it will become unjust.
Also, as a forgiving God, the moment you called out to him to take you from such a punishment and he left you there for all eternity, he is no longer forgiving.
Personally I don’t believe in “Hell” for many many reasons that I have listed and discussed in other threads but would be happy to discuss again if anyone would like.
When Jesus died on the cross it was not just for a few “Christians" - "and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.” It is only the institutionalization of Christianity that has made it an exclusive club....not Jesus, not God. You don’t have to accept Jesus into your heart to be “saved” we are all “saved” through the sacrifice that was already made....once again, free will is not a factor.